D.A. Kabatoff

Hi Andy, the shoulder's good enough for working! Wish I could have been in Kamloops to see you and Ryan's saddles, I heard they were pretty nice! Ann, the skirts and rear jockeys came from a 13-15oz side of Hermann Oak leather, because of where in the hide they came from, the skirts were probably around 14oz(around the middle of the hide)range and the rear jockeys were probably 15-16oz(from the tip of the butt). Darcy

Steve, great looking saddle with your usual clean lines. The square skirts are stunning and I really like your carving pattern on the tap tips and the vine wrapping around the carlos border on the lower edge of the rear jockey, nicely done!. Darcy

thanks for the comments everyone. Tim, the rear housing is one piece...I had a butt end leftover from one of the hides and it was large enough to get the jockeys out in one piece. If you are using two seperate jockeys, you can almost make that seam between them invisible by doing a lap skive between the two jockeys. Darcy

Here's a saddle I finished up yesterday that was built on a Weatherly style tree with 26" tapaderos.

thanks Joanne, I can relate to the process part... I've already got ideas on how to incorporate some color photos but they are fairly ambitious and will probably change the more I think about them which makes me think I should let things sit awhile. Dirtclod, thanks for the thoughts, I'm quite sure there will be people who share your views about color photos. When I figure a way to incorporate them without taking away from the continuity of the site, I'll be adding them. Darcy

Ben, Bob, Joanne, Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts, after reviewing the site with your comments in mind, it was easier to see the need for the changes. I've changed most of what was mentioned in your posts and am still gathering some information for the "Information" page which will include basic prices, saddle details, and ordering information. I'm still fooling around with some ideas for color photos and tooling descriptions and will probably change that up when I come up with something I like. I'm still trying to decide what the purpose of the site is... at this point it's more of an idea site for people who've contacted me and less of a site to promote new business thanks again for your ideas. Darcy

I thought I'd post a link to my new website. I'm no website designer so it still has a few kinks to be worked out. www.dakabatoff.com Darcy

here's how I do them. I start the pattern in the corner and work outwards from there. Darcy

Normow, looks like you did a nice job of the saddle... just a small correction, Bob's last name is Land.

Adam, I'm not sure what Hermann Oak's exact specs are for light and medium weight leather but they are probably something like 11-13oz for light and 12-14oz for heavy. I definitly wouldn't go lighter than the lightweight leather that Caledon sells and if the saddle will be used regularly, I'd use a combination of light and medium weight or all medium weight. Keep in mind each saddle parts function and that will dictate if you should use the light or medium weight leather. Cantle backs, gullet covers, horn caps and wraps, skirt plugs, rear jockeys, cantle binding can all be taken from the light hide. The seat, skirts, groundseat, and stirrup leathers should come from the heavier hide. If the saddle is being used for roping, the fork cover should come from the heavier hide, if it's just a riding saddle, the lighter hide might be acceptable. You may be able to take the fenders from the butt of the lighter hide if it's a firm, heavy butt and your fender pattern isn't too big. The 2 1/2" stirrups are referring to the tread width, so any stirrup maker can make them that width; those stirrups happened to come from Trina Weber. If you want the gap that the stirrup bolts occupy to be narrower (ie 2 1/2") take the spacer off the bolt and use a hacksaw to cut the spacer to what ever width your stirrup leathers will be. Darcy

Justin, the angle of the photo may be a bit deceiving as my skirts typically are about 4-4 1/2"s deep below the rear bar edge. The rear dees I use are 3"s from top to bottom so I'm guessing the saddle in the photo was probably just over 4"s deep. As far as how small you can make the skirts, I've made them as small as two inches below the rear bar on a single rigged saddle... It plays havoc with the overall lines of the saddle but if the aesthetics aren't too important and you have a good fitting tree, smaller skirts aren't too much of a problem. Deryk Pitts is a very good saddlemaker so if you have access to one of his saddles that have proportions you like, I'd certainly use it to take measurements from. If you are trying to make a lightweight saddle, there are a few tricks you can combine. First, like you mentioned, you can minimize the size of your patterns. You can also use lighterweight leather such as the light and medium weight hides... Ken at Caledon Leather in Calgary usually has them in stock. You can also use narrower, half stirrup leathers and the narrowest tread stirrups that your customer finds accesptable. You might also consider an inskirt rig as well. The picture of the saddle below is one I made for a gal from the United Kingdom who wanted the lightest saddle I could make. Fully mounted that saddle weighed about 24lbs. It started with a lightweight tree, light and medium hides, fenders that were 7"s wide, an inskirt rigging, half stirrup leathers, and 2 1/2" stirrups. The customer was also only a few inches over 5 feet so trying to keep the blevins off the rigging was a challenge. The depth of the skirts was probably about 3 1/2 - 3 3/4"s deep. The brass rivets came from Weaver's Leather in the U.S. I usually use copper but had a request for them on a saddle. Darcy

Hi Justin, I never use 550 rings so I can't comment on them but I agree with Steve that about 6 1/4"s below the bar is about right for a 777 plate. You also have to keep in mind a couple of things... the height of your rider may require you to raise that height if they are short in height. You should also consider the tree you are using; some maker's trees have bars with more depth on the front pads than others and quite noticeably so. Some tree styles also have deeper bars than others, ie. a Wade. The saddle in the photo below has a 5053 plate set at about 6 1/4"s. The picture also illustrates what I mentioned in my above post of a symmetrical seat jockey that covers the opening in your flat plate rigging... the leading edge of the seat jockey covers the stitch line on the flat plate by about 3/16th's of an inch. Darcy

Justin, First off, good job using a Nikkel tree... alot of people making their first few saddles are tempted to use inferior trees while they are "learning" and don't realize all the benefits to be gained by using a quality tree, even on their first efforts. If your really want a useful critique, try and post a number of photos from different angles that better show the seat profile, cantle binding, rear jockeys (where they fit around the back of the cantle), ear cuts, and areas of handstitching. That said, from what I can see in the photo, it looks like you did a pretty nice job overall. The seat seems to be a decent shape, your ear-cuts look smooth, the fork and horn looks like smooth work, and you used decent materials. There are a couple areas that you may need to look at a little closer. Probably the biggest concern regarding function is it appears your flat plate rigging is dropped too low. I've taken your photo and added a few lines to it to illustrate my point. I've used a red circle over your blevins keeper... you don't want that keeper sitting on top of your rigging hardware where it will create a lump under the rider's knees. I've drawn a green line which is where the bottom of your rigging plate could probably be raised to. To put even more room between the blevins keeper and the rigging hardware, you could shorten up the stirrup leather extensions by 1-2"s (This is the area the blevins plate is riveted). This isn't always necessary but if you get a rider on the short side, you may have to do this to keep the keeper off the rigging. On the aesthetic side of things, you can improve the overall balance of the saddle by changing your seat jockey shape. You have a nice balanced look to the rear skirt and rear jockey but then your seat jockey drops too low and the shape doesn't appear symmetrical. I've drawn a red oval to illustrate this. The jockey doesn't need to be oval shape but it should be relatively symmetrical. I've also added two blue circles to show how the seat should blend in with the front and rear ears. You did this on the rear below the ear cut but not on the front ear. Without that rounded area, the seat will be more prone to tearing if anything ever catches the seat jockey. At the front of the saddle where your front button is, I've drawn two lines. The purple line bisects where your front button is. The blue line bisects where I would put it; The photo of the tree shows where the string holes would be drilled and the line through them matches up with where the front edge of the fork will be once the leather is on the tree (compare this to the lines I drew on your saddle). Moving the button forward will require you to add about 1" to the front of your skirts but it will help address a couple of issues. By moving the front button forward, you can then move the second button forward as well which will help to keep it further away from your rider's leg... If you've ever raked your thigh across that second button without chaps, you'll know why you want to keep it out of the way. Moving the second button forward will also move your seat jockey forward and help you to cover up the open area of your rigging. Ideally, the front edge of your seat jockey should cover the stitch line of your rigging. I've drawn a green line in front of the seat jockey to indicate the space I'd like to see covered. Besides extending your seat jockey forward, you may also have to alter your rigging pattern. The only other thing I can see is the top of your front jockey appears to be higher than the skirt. I like the top of the front jockey to follow the top edge of the skirt as it goes through the gullet. It may just be the angle of the photo creating this illusion but if not, you could take about 1/3" from the top of that jockey. Don't be discouraged by what I've mentioned because you have done alot of good things on that saddle, especially for your third saddle. What I've pointed out are just small details to help give the saddle a more balanced look. Look forward to seeing the next one. Darcy

Topcat, you can google Caledon leather in Calgary, Alberta. They had four or five of them last time I was in. Ken, the manager, is a straight shooter and will tell you what he knows about them. Darcy

I'd agree with Steve about the needle and awl machine. The price of a reconditioned machine from Campbell is going to shock you, but if you are serious about saddlemaking and want the nicest stitch that can be made, that would come from a needle and awl machine. If you can't afford one from Campbell-Randall, keep your eyes out for a used Campbell, Randall, or Landis machine... it'll still cost you a fair amount more than a new Boss, but if your intent is to make top notch saddles, it'll show in your final results. Darcy

Andy, thanks for the photos... sure wish I could have made it up to the show! Congratulations on your saddle as well as the Joe Marten award. For anyone who doesn't know, the Joe Marten award is given to someone who has been influential in the promotion and/or preservation of Cowboy / Western Heritage in the Province of BC... Andy was presented with the award at the Kamloops Cowboy festival this year. If you have any other photos from the show, i'd sure like to see them. Congratulations Ryan, love to see the saddle you had there as well. Darcy

Rickyfro, hard to say which size you should get... it really depends on the size of flowers you are carving. If you are carving small flower and using larger grounders, you'll have problems getting them into the tight corners where stickers converge with vines, etc... If your carving large flowers and using small grounders, you'll be backgrounding all day long. I'd say your best bet is to decide what diameter of flower you think you'll be carving the most and call Barry and get his opinion on it. Darcy

Campbell-Bosworth sells a liquid wax that I believe is water based. I use it in my Landis 3 and if I leave it sitting too long, I just need to add some water to turn it liquid again. Not sure about price as I'm still using the gallon I got about three years ago... you can check their website for price, etc... Darcy

thanks for the ebay number Steve. Steve Mason is right about the saddle made by Robert Chavez... I've seen that listing a number of times now. Really burns me up knowing what this guy is doing. Hope you can get something done about it. Darcy

Hey Steve, if it hasn't been removed yet, can you let me know how I can find it on Ebay? I like to keep track of these things...we'll probably see the same person do it again under a different name but the overall look of the listing page will probably look similar. I've seen this several times now. Darcy

Really nice work Andy, love the carve job! Are you happening to be bringing that to Kamloops this year?... cause if you are, I'd better get off the computer and get to work. Darcy

Newfman, you must remember that the card system is a way to present an image of a horse's back to a treemaker, it by no means dictates anything about how the appropriate tree will be made. This is left to the interpretation of the individual treemakers who decide which of their own patterns will best fit the horse in question. This still leaves alot of room for different measurements between different treemakers. What one treemaker calls a 93 degree bar may end up looking and fitting quite similar to another's 90 degree bar... doesn't make one right or wrong, just means the process to get to the end result is different. In addition, different treemakers may have differnt theories on how to fit a particular horse or group of horses. It would be like you taking a waist, thigh, knee, calf, and ankle measurment and sending those measurements to five different tailors and having them send you a pair of pants... It's highly unlikely any of them will fit the same as the others. As a saddlemaker, this gives me choices as to who's tree I think will best suit the regional differences of my customers. Add to this the nearly infinite number of fork and cantle patterns and I'm not sure you could standardize trees or that i'd want to. I sometimes wonder if customers are partly to blame for the confusion when it comes to handmade trees and saddles. In their quest for information on the subject, they often get tidbits of information which makes them just knowledgeable enough to be a thorn in your a$$. This doesn't apply to everyone, but a good number of people have tried to tell me what they need using terms like bar degrees and gullet widths, etc... without having the slightest idea how one aspect of a tree's measurement affects another. I can't tell you how many times I've had customers tell me they need a tree with a seven or eight inch gullet and 93 or 95 degree bars because they have a really hard to fit "wide" quarter horse. Then I show up with handmade trees with 4" hand hole widths and 6" gullet widths and 90 degree bars that fit as well as a tree can fit. In contrast, I often get working cowboys who aren't microfitting and don't need all the terminology to order their saddle. Makes you wonder how somebody riding a couple of horses a few hours a week needs the standardized terms and somebody riding dozens of different horses for eight or ten hours at a time doesn't. Not sure what the answer is but with the number of variables involved with a horse's back, uses for the horse, theories on saddlefit, etc... that standardization is really an option. Darcy

Hi Ryano, I got one from Campbell-Bosworth a couple of years ago... they are remanufacturing them. Interesting part is, I have two machines and took the needle bar from one machine and stuck it into the needle bar stand from the other machine and it was as tight as the new one CB sent... was like putting new ones in both my machines. Can't remember what they were charging but it was fairly reasonable and saved a lot of time looking. Darcy

Juha, I'd be interested to know what you find out. I also use Blanchard pricking irons and have never been able to find Portmanteaus made by them. In North America it's getting very difficult to get the regular Blanchard irons! I know you mentioned you aren't interested in English brands but if you can't find any by Blanchard, there is a person selling pricking irons on Ebay that are made by Barnsley and they look quite similar to the Blanchard. He sells them as a set (regular and Portmanteau) in various sizes. Dixon also has some nice looking ones on their website and they seem to suggest they can custom make them as well. Darcy

Curbstrap, when you say "under the left and right jockeys", do you mean stamped on top of the fenders? If this is the case the fenders may have been taken from another saddle. If the stamping is on the skirts (under the jockeys) they could have been taken from another saddle as well. Darcy