K-Man

I have no problem with differing opinions, as long as it stays in that vein.

Look, Denster, I can only relate what happened in my instance/experience. BTW, Tippmann is the one who determined the machine(s) were broken beyond repair. You can verify my story with Jim Miller at Tippmann if you desire. If you want to continue to take jabs at my experience, have at it. You're just making yourself look like the fool. I've learned, through trial and error, what works and what doesn't. As I mentioned before, I will not recommend the BOSS to someone who wants to make a quality product, all things considered. You can sit here and try and justify all day long why you think a BOSS is a better choice. I don't buy the hype/justification you're posting. Why? Because I know what my experience has been with that machine. I've read numerous other accounts of people giving up on the machine because they've come to the realization it's not going to provide them the end product they desire to make/present. So keep spewing.... I also said previously that there have been some who have had great success with the machine. Paul Long (knife sheathmaker) is one who comes to mind.

I had both their old version and the current version. I don't recall at this point what had broken on the machine(s), as it's been 6/7 years ago now. The other thing that was a true annoyance was that the machines were constantly getting out of time. Based on my personal experiences with three of the BOSS machines, I will not recommend their use for someone who desires to make higher end/quality gear. Some people have had success with the machine. I know of more who have not. The workings or adjustments on the Artisan/Cobra/Neel's machines are a lot easier to accomplish than one may be led to believe. Routine maintenance of the machine, i.e., application of oil, keeping it clean, checking belts for any wear, will keep it running smoothly for many years. If it requires the changing out of parts, that's normally easily accomplished, even by the novice. I'm certain that either Steve at Cobra or Ryan at Neel's could walk someone through it over the phone. In addition, you can usually find industrial sewing machine repair shops nearby. Some shops even offer the service of coming to your location. I've had my two Toro 3000's for ~5 years now and I haven't had any problems with them. The only adjustments I've had to make has been when I've changed out the thread size and made minor tweaks on the tension. IMO, it's hard to gauge the resale value of these machines because you rarely see anyone reselling one. Garange: all I can do is relate to you what my personal experiences with the sewing machines have been. I do a relatively high volume of work and make a variety of products. Good luck to you in your search.

Or a machine that isn't worth a darn.... I do have to say that Tippmann has great customer service. I continue to use them for the making of the clicker dies for our products. I also have one of their 15-ton clickers, which I've used for clicking out over 10,000 pieces. Have never had a problem with it.

I've had the opportunity to use a variety of machines for holster making. If you're really serious about wanting to make a quality holster/product, my recommendation would be to skip the BOSS. I broke two of them beyond repair and sold a third off in disgust within a 15-month period. I then used a Model 5 machine from Neel's Saddlery - huge improvement. I made a number of items with it, to include product that got us first place in the Star Wars costume contest at their convention in Indianapolis a few years ago. I used that machine for approximately 18-24 months. I then bought two Artisan Toro 3000's. That was another move up in performance and quality of product produced. Have had virtually zero problems with those machines. I also bought an Artisan 618 and after a couple of years with it started having some problems. Called their customer service. Let's just say that I will not buy another product from Artisan nor recommend their products to anyone. My suggestion would be to seriously consider the Cobra Class 3 from Cobra Leather Machine company or the equivalent model from Neel's Saddlery. The machines sew up to 3/4" or 7/8" thickness of leather. The quality of the machine is superior to a BOSS machine by far. The customer service of both Cobra and Neel's is some of the best I've experienced anywhere.

This is our latest version/model. It was recently pictured in the March 2010 issue of Shooting Illustrated.

Dummy guns available: Glock 19 (Ring's Blue Gun) S&W 340 PD (Duncan's aluminum) Taurus PT140 (Duncan's aluminum) Kahr PM9 (Duncan's aluminum) Kel-Tec P32 (Duncan's aluminum) Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

My saying, "call me stupid," is but a figure of speech. And I understand what you're saying with respect to the horse tack, applying the theories you suggest. But as I pointed out, the stress is less on the gun belt than on a piece of horse tack. I sew it in that manner that I do, in part, to ensure that end of the "bottom" strap stays down. I've seen instances where the glue does not hold that part of the strap down/in place. Doing it the time honored way doesn't always make it the best way. Nothing sends me up the flag pole faster than reading "this is the way we've always done it" in an effort to justify the means. Surely if I had experienced, either personally or from a customer's belt, the perforation/tearing suggested then I could, and would, reconsider my approach/means whereby I make the belt. For example, I'm exceptionally rough on any equipment/product I use, be it leather gear or hand tools. I broke two Tippmann BOSS handstitchers beyond repair in very short order; I've torn up chain saws - three in a matter of three hours; and there's a litany of other examples. My point is that if I cannot personally tear it up or destroy it, then the odds are I've got a very durable product. I think in this instance it would be best to leave it where you can say, "this is the way I've done it and met with satisfactory/non-issue results," and I can say the same. Those reading can then determine for themselves which route, or stitch line, they want to follow.

Stresses on the leather are generally much greater on horse tack than on a leather gun belt. I've seen horse tack that's been torn along the "perforated" line. I've been wearing one of our belts, carrying a 1911-frame style of gun nearly every day, and cinch the belt up tightly to some extent. I've been wearing this particular belt for over 2 years, every day. I'm yet to see any separation along that stitch line. So while it seems that you would potentially experience the same result on the belt as you do on the horse tack, it just doesn't happen. I'll just keep on being stupid I guess.

I use H.O. leather for all my products. I use water, a belt sander with 150-grit sandpaper, a #3 edge beveler, saddle soap, and my two edge burnishers, both fashioned after what Weaver Leather sells/offers. The two edge burnishers are mounted on a motor that spins at 3600 rpms. I haven't burned an edge. I spend less than 5 minutes total on an edge. This is a sample of the edges I get: The general consensus seems to be that you have to spin a burnisher at ~1700 rpms or slower. I think the pictures above show that you can do a professional job at higher rates of rpm. YMMV

Call me stupid I guess, because I've been doing things a bit different than what's mentioned above when it comes to making the gun belts. I two layers of 6/7 oz H.O. leather (backs) that are glued and stitched together. There's a single layer extension of sorts from just beyond the slot for the buckle tongue. Where that double layer ends, just before the single layer rolls over to the backside, I sew straight across at a 90-degree angle. I've made approximately 500 belts that way and have never had an issue arise. The other thing I do is dip-dye the total belt. That means front and back get dyed whatever color. Then the belt is sealed with an acrylic finish. Never have had a report of the dye wearing off on a customer's clothes. I guess I must be doing it wrong.

The following guns are sold: Kel-Tec P3AT Glock 19 Only gun left is: Taurus PT-140. Thanks for everyone's interest.

The following guns are sold, pending receipt of payment: Ruger LCP Kel-Tec P3AT (1 still avail) Para Ordnance P12 Thanks for your interest.

The following guns are sold, pending receipt of payment: Browning Hi-Power Ruger LCP (1 still available) Para-Ordnance P10 S&W Model 60 Thanks for everyone's interest.

Have the following available for purchase: Ruger LCP - Duncan Custom (2 of these avail) Kel-Tec P3AT - Duncan Custom (2 of these avail) Browning Hi-Power - Ring's Blue Glock 19 - Ring's Blue Para Ordnance P10 - Duncan Custom (3" 1911 frame - cocked & locked, double stack) Para Ordnance P12 - Duncan Custom (3.5" 1911 frame - cocked & locked, double stack) Taurus PT140 - Duncan Custom S&W Mod 60, 2" barrel - Duncan Custom Guns are used. Price is $25/each. Shipping is $8/each. Will combine shipping on multiple purchase. Can accept credit card (Mastercard/VISA) or money order for payment. Contact me at my shop if interested. Shop phone is 813-659-3456. Avail Monday-Friday, 9:00 - 5:00 (eastern time). Email is Kevin ((AT)) kdholsters ((DOT)) com.

I know this question was initially directed to Shorts, however, that is exactly what I did. I set up the LLC and the insurance for the company at the get-go. Why? Because there's a much higher level of liability assigned with making holsters than there is with, say, making a wallet. In fact, on the insurance side, it took some amount of effort to find an underwriter because most insurers did not want to insure anything associated with guns. Horse gear/tack and saddles were another high risk assigned by the underwriters. I have $1-million worth of coverage. I'm covered by whatever I choose to make or repair. I've been able to draw other ventures/products in under the insurance coverage. This even includes the making of custom acoustic guitars. My premium and coverage amount did not change. To me, and my legal advisors and accountant, it makes good sense to protect one's self. Insurance and setting your business up as an LLC or Corporation does that.

You're correct. I had the guy sitting on the saddle in mind with respect to SASS Mounted Shooting and knowing that Will Ghormley does holsters for that venue. Crossdraw holsters are legit in that shooting arena.

That's Cowboy Action Shooting/Single Action Shooting Society he's doing. If he's on the firing line, tell me what body parts he's sweeping? The rules require you to turn that hip towards the target as the gun is drawn to prevent sweeping of one's self or anyone else for that matter. To the OP - the suggestion above that you obtain liability insurance is spot on. The suggestion to turn your business into an LLC or Corp is worthy of consideration. It would be wise to have competent legal counsel craft some sort of liability release, though that's not going to prevent anyone from bringing action against you. Search your local area for counsel who specialize in such documents. It would be, IMO, money well spent.

It's a Single Action gun - meaning the hammer has to be cocked/engaged before it's going to fire.

We're obviously making holsters on a different level from one another. Those differences between the sizes make a difference on our holsters, whether it's for a 1911 or other styles of guns. The conversation, at least my understanding, evolved into using the proper gun for the correct fit. I only used the example, which was preceded by the words, "for example," of the 5-shot vs 6-shot cylinder to make the point of the importance of using the proper gun. You're incorrect that the detail adds little to the fit and long term retention of the gun in the holster. Part of basic holster-making 101 shows the greater the amount of leather in direct contact with the gun is what provides for greater retention. That added detailing adds to the retention in key locations on the gun frame by virtue of the leather being pressed against the frame of the gun. My comments are based on my personal experience, and my instruction from those holster makers who are considered the epitome of the custom holster industry. My construction of our holsters mirrors the same methods. What some folks here tout as the proper way, or a tried and true way, simply are missing the boat. You may perceive my comments as criticism, but that's probably based on the fact that they conflict with some of the information being provided here. One has only to look at the product, and listen/read of the reputation, to see the differences. If I were doing things incorrectly, I doubt seriously we would have the amount of success, and at the level, that we do. This forum was initially derived to provide instruction on how to make items in the leathercraft industry. In this segment of the forum, we're talking about holsters. I'm not against providing instruction, and often do when contacted by the members here, and people are welcome to contact me if they desire. If that instruction conflicts with the information often touted here, well, then maybe it's time for those here to evaluate their practices. Good luck to you.

There are differences between the 1911's, not just with barrel length, but with dust cover size and shape. At some point, I keep hoping the light bulb will go off in people's head that it makes a difference whether or not you use the proper gun to fit the holster, at least if you're wanting to make a custom molded one. There are certain parameters that apply in every instance when it comes to making a holster for a gun - period. Can't state it any more plain than that. Use of the proper gun/fit lends to long-term durability and use of the holster. Tolerance differences on the guns affect that. Most customers can recognize early enough that there's a fit issue with their gun in the holster. And most will dispose of the holster before it leads to any serious safety issues. That's why you don't hear of holster maker's being sued because of it. In short, it falls to the tolerance/acceptance of the individual holster maker and what level of the industry they want to work at, and what risks they're willing to take. I've read too many stories of holster makers trying to skimp by and use a gun that is different from what's needed. For example, I know a holster maker who was using a 6-shot revolver for fitting holsters for a 5-shot cylinder gun (makes a difference). Didn't take long for word about a sloppy fit of gun to holster to get out. A bunch of folks read that story, and the holster maker saw a dive in sales. In short, he had lost the confidence of both current and potential customers. There's other stories of guns sticking out the end of the holster because the holster maker used the wrong gun, and the list goes on and on. In short, if you as the holster maker are satisfied with the reputation that such errant actions bring, then go for it. gregintenn: I have liability insurance, always have. In my opinion, it's more prudent to do so then not.

BRL: Five to seven months. Rayban: My clips are 3/4" wide. I would not go any thinner in width than that. I'll have to try and get a measurement on the bar we use. I had it all custom made, so I don't recall the specs off the top of my head. The radius on the bar is critical to the bend. I'll try and get the info and pass it along.

.090 thickness of kydex is too thin for clips. You need to use the .125. My personal experiences with Garret Industries clips were less than stellar. His clips had a failure rate of 30-35%. Too high in my opinion. We now make our own, using the same basic design that we had GI making, and have had a zero failure rate. The radius of the bend at the top of the clip is critical towards the durability of the clip. We've made over 500 sets in the last 6 months. We have the basic shape cut from the sheet of kydex by cnc machine, to include the holes for screw placement. We then clean the edges up and bend them with a heat gun on a custom jig I had made. I've saved over $2500 in costs for those 500+ sets in comparison to what I was paying GI.

The thumb push off on the pocket holsters was a Ron Graham design. It's been around for 8+ years. The snap off/snap on panel on the pocket holsters originated with my design of our 2n1 pocket holster about 7 years ago. Suggest you switch out the socket and stud on their respective pieces, opposite of the way you have it now. In other words, put the socket pieces on the panel and the studs on the holster itself. The reason for doing it that way is so the socket won't wear a hole in your pocket lining when the holster is used without the panel attached.

To put it politically correct - keep your day job. The reality of it is that the economy is in the toilet, and is going to stay there for some time. Give up the notion that the BOSS hand stitcher is going to be satisfactory for any amount of holster making. That statement is based on my own personal experience of having had three of them - broke two of them beyond repair and sold the third off in frustration of it not doing the job. This was over a period of 18 months. A Cobra Class 3 machine (or similar) is going to do a hell of a lot better job and last you a whole lot longer. The difference in price between the two is negligible IMO. I've had my two Artisan 3000's for approximately five years and have made thousands of items with them, without hardly a blip on the radar screen with respect to any issues with them. You have to decide what level of quality that you want to work at in this field. If you want to do "production" type work - meaning slapping two pieces of leather together with some variant of glue, stitch it, stick a gun it and run your finger around the shape of the gun, and call it a holster - then you can probably sell a bunch of them at a readily apparent low price. You're going to have to produce a bunch of them to get to your level of salary with your current job though. The vast majority of the customers today are looking for a holster that they can have now and for the lowest price. So there are those in this industry who strive to give them that very thing by doing exactly what I said just above. How much experience do you have in running every detail of a business? Are you able to make decisions on your feet and not miss a beat? How much experience do you have dealing directly with rude and obnoxious customers? Can you tolerate people telling you that you don't know what you're talking about and tell you to go stick it in body orifices? How much knowledge and experience do you have with guns? I know quite a few holster makers who don't know squat about guns and try and pass themselves off as knowlegable in that respect. Doesn't take much to call them out.... How much of a salesman are you? What style(s) of holster are you going to make/offer? What about related accessories? How much do you know about design and how a holster and/or accessory SHOULD function? How much initiative do you have? How good are you at innovation? How much real time are you going to be able to devote to the making of the holsters? What's your level of integrity? Trust me, it makes a difference. How good are you at organization and detail? If you're lacking in any of these areas, you're going to have a very hard time selling one, let alone a bunch of, holster(s). These are all things that you really need to consider IMO. Oftentimes people have this idealistic perception that running/having your own business is the cat's meow. It's not even close on most days. All of the things mentioned above are issues you have to deal with on nearly an every day basis, if you're successful at doing this business thing. Ultimately, you have to decide for yourself if you want to make the leap to making the leathercraft/holster making a full time gig. Would I do it again, given the opportunity? Absolutely, but I'm of a personality type that is detail driven. We've had some great success in this industry - been on the cover of gun magazines on more than one occasion, pictured/featured in more than 30 articles in gun magazines, pictured in TIME (magazine) article and a number of daily newspapers, shipped holsters around the world, and sold literally thousands of holsters and related products. All of this has been done in less than 7 years time. So my comments above are based on my first hand, real life, experiences. YMMV.