DavidL

brain tanning is interesting as leather can be made quick and cheap il give it another look over. The discussion on the cost of machinery is helpful as it is something I should avoid on something this scale. So pit tanning is the way to go about it money wise. As with everything there will always be 1000 different excuses not to do something but rarely a reason not to try. I did more research and found and read a book called art of tanning - 1850 ish. there was reference of using other tannins found in other woods instead of Oak which is not effective, cutting down the time by more than 50 percent which is good news waiting for 3 months is better than a year. Next step is to contact a leather tanning supplier and get a basic tanning set up formulated. Work out the kinks in the process by consulting with a leather chemist. Do some test runs on some hides and perfect the techniques. Easier said than done.. More likely I will do regular bark tanning in the future along side leather working and I will see from there.

Peter nitz is truly masterful. Im looking for grain/flesh burnishing though but thanks anyways. The machine I'm looking for, I now understand is a glazing jack w/ a glass tip. The other is a hot roller/ hot plate to further eliminate wrinkles in the leather and create a burnished grain the same way you can burnish an edge as far as I understand. Both for the face side or flesh side of the leather. Im not looking to buy these machinery as it will likely cost tens of thousands of dollars. Im trying to figure out if there is a way to get a similar common tool that can do these actions on smaller pieces to a burnished finish especially on finishes of wax, tallow and oil that can bleed dye easily in my testings. The only tool that was used back in the day is a boxwood slicker or glass slicker. The cheapest modern option is a hot plate for t shirt sublimation though or maybe an iron. Any articles would help.

Does any one have information on hot plate/ hot roller used for sealing the dye and spray finish or sealing waxes, fats and oils. Its my understanding that this is used to permanently bind the finish and dyes into the leather to prevent the dye from bleeding. Plus the shine it creates that wont otherwise wouldn't be there. Another piece of equipment that I'm looking for information on is a friction burnisher that is used for alligator skin. It is used also on shell cordovan from horween does anyone know if they are used on veg tan leather together with hot plate/ hot roller or a replacement of that. The old fashion way referenced from valerie michael's book is using a piece of boxwood to burnish the grain side. The one site I know of selling machinery for leather working is Campbell randall that I sent an email to waiting for a response. Other suppliers of these machines would help.

I believe tandy dye is one thats available in California. Another suggestion is to make your own stain/dye. It is much more difficult, time consuming and potentially more expensive than store bought but can give better results if some time and experimentation is allowed.

You could try to dye it white/ bleach then yellow. Same technique is done by painters to get yellow on a dark background. The way black covers everything, the opposite is true for yellow.

Thanks for the link. I tried to start an account a while back but they no longer accept new members... They do have a lot of info now that I look into it. From a business stand point its enticing. Its a rather niche market, most people are looking into high end leathers. Start up is incredibly cheap, learning is very steep. ROI Without cost of leather, shipping, taxes or duties. I can see the cost being for just experimenting around with: $160 plus the cost of hide (60 dollars from an abattoir quoted from another member price could be slightly more) - $220 Used plastic barrel - $50 Water - Free Calcium hydroxide (easy to find surprisingly) - 5 pounds $50 Skiving knife - $60 Oak bark - Free (from forests) Dyes - Already own finish - already own If I'm able to perfect the art of tanning - A very rough estimate if I was to sell a hide for say $9 a sq foot (could be less or more) for a single hide would sell for 450 = $225 for 25 sq foot side. For a one man operation of 20 hides a year it would take in 9 grand - 220 - 600 or more equipment and home made dyes and bees wax to finish - 1200 for hides . At that point I would need to buy the bark in bulk from a lumber yard. At a big enough space (big backyard) theoretically could do 100 hides a year. I would probably look like a breaking bad situation though.. Storage locker would be better... 100 hides could bring in 45k revenue imagining they are all A grades. The tricky part is learning how to tan leather in an art that is completely lost in North america but not so in other countries. Ability to tan correctly without messing up too many hides in the learning process. There is a demand for leather right now so its a possibility. Also its possible to make new batches of leather every 2 months so that you could make more hides.

What are your thoughts on the future of leather working?I see an increasing trend of made in America goods by smaller companies. In the upcoming years do you believe that more and more goods will be made by hand or machine domestically? It seems CNC machines could be the thing that brings back more goods made in USA or Canada for lower price brackets.

I agree with monica how everyone if exposed long enough and has the want to become a hermes work can become one it may take 4 years maybe 10 but nothing is given to you, it has to be earned. Hermes workers are among the top 1 percent. If we are talking the most top of the food chain only 1 out of 100 of those hermes worker will be .01 percentile which is in most likely hood the instructor. In that regard its a never ending path, you can improve even in your 20th year. The one thing I see most often is people find an excuse how its not possible (there are 1000 different excuses) and once you believe in an excuse its game over. Its better to give it a shot if its feasible and possibly fail instead of not doing it at all. If at any point you tell your self you can't do it for X or Y your right. if you say you can do it your also right although. its harder to fight through it than it is for the instant gratification of quitting. At the moment where you are unsure if you will keep improving or wont succeed is where greatness comes from, the ability to work past the plateau. Now that I hashed together my thoughts talent = small amount of natural talent + mindset + passion + time + evaluation + controlled madness (Which pushes people to need to be improving) Some what related. Video where a podcaster talks about the how elite athletes have similar mindsets and the drive it takes for them to be where they are at.

lol. Id like to meet you in person instead of over the internet.. I think people are over estimating the cost and machinery needed for pit tanning. I appreciate their viewpoint though. Im curious as to why pit tanning is undoable but smoke tanning leather is okay? If there are scientific facts that makes pit tanning undoable I would be more persuaded. If it doesnt work it doesnt work. Im excepting the fact that it may not work but it also a good chance it will. All things considered the pros outweigh the risk.

To be an "Expert" (top .1 percent) there is a popular theory that it takes 10,000 hours to master a task. If you don't plateau and continue to improve gradually you could become top 1 percent without a doubt and a shot at top .1+ percent. Some can go for many years and still wont become a master because they plateau (lack of guidance or lack of passion) or neglect the fundamentals. They could become better than 97 percent of people with just the time they put in but the last few percent is 10x harder than the first 97 percent. In my opinion any one who dedicates 10 thousand hours into a task has a strong mind set and that in itself is a mastery of your own mind. A person without that mindset/passion and stops at 1000 thousand hours could be better than 90 percent. There are also many variables like physical (less so in leather rather than sports), mindset/passion (also have to master the way you think as well as leatherwork). Could someone with less natural ability out beat someone with natural ability? I say yes as long as they spend more time in areas the person with natural ability don't need to. At a VERY high level, top .000001 percent are usually those with unusually great natural talent, unusual genetics and unusual drive/mind like NBA players or top scientists. Unfortunately those without amazing natural ability can make it to top .01 but very slim of .000001.

In your opinion which seems to be the most likely that tanneries do when veg tan has flesh side that is coloured different than the grain would that be dye, acrylic or some type of powder that you rub on and heat set on the flesh?

appreciate the responses. The 10,000 variables is something thats interesting to me. Within the 10k variables there are thousands of options that can make a finished hide and the equal amount that can ruin the hide. The opportunity to be able to create my own hides for veg/bridle only (not pull-up or chrome) is great as I could tan 20 sides for 1k - 2k and over time the cost will lower vs 3 -4k for 10 bends of english bridle. The risk is it could fail, but its worth the shot. Materials: Large enough containers to fit multiple sides or smaller containers to fit bends, shoulders and belly. Lime water, fleshing knife,oak bark,water, cod oil, fats, dubbin. Did more research and from suggestions of the replies I think the best way to go about it is to buy the leather in salted state either with hair + flesh taken off (no mess) or to take it off myself (cheaper but timely). Put it into a weak tanning solution to get rid of the salt, limewater and hair bits ( Oak bark or tanning powder from the company silva team). Then move it over to a stronger solution of oak bark or other tannins, stretch on frame to dry. Dye the leather, treat with cod oil,fats, dubbin and hand polish. Does anyone know if the 9-12 month tanning period is for sole bends or hides like english bridle that baker leather does?

That would be a helpful resource, just like how fine leather tools are niche, instructions are even rarer. Who would you get to instruct? To be frank if it isn't made by an experienced leatherworker I would be less inclined to purchase but thats just me. A video by an ex hermes work or peter nitz I would for sure buy. One thing I been trying to find is a full video step by step of making something like a bag made by a european craftsman like the type of work hermes puts out. The only place in USA to learn this would be from http://www.amblardleatheratelier.com. At 80-100 (about a day rate minus the materials) I would pay for a 2 hour vid on handle making like the below picture, edge burnishing w/ a machine tool and the edge technique in second picture wrapped together in the making of the bag in a step by step process - basic talk about materials, tools, cutting + aligning, glueing + hardware, construction + stitching, finishing. A downloadable pattern or plastic pattern that you could buy from your site and a reasonably priced video (made by amblard or a past student) would be perfect.. An hour to 2 hour in-depth video for download for 80-100 bucks would be what I would be interested to pay depending on the amount of detail in the video. A bag like a briefcase or messenger bag would be good.

I may be thinking about this type of thing in the future, owning a small plot of land for vegetables, grains and live stock the entire lifestyle. Diary cow is a great idea. I will take a look at the laws and regulations to find out the current situation. Calf leather that are 13- 20 sq feet roughly for chrome tan full hide how many months old are those calfs? When we see leathers from HO and W & C how old are these cows that we get the 25 sq foot sides?

thanks for the info and suggestions. I would like to try tanning sometime in the future. I will look into local farmers for guidance. How much does it cost for feed for a single cow until slaughter? What are your opinion on implants?

never been to a tannery. I would like to visit baker.. The way baker leather tans their hides looks simple enough, just a multiple pits/containers with water and bark. Sounds simple but it would take time (over a year) to establish a working formula. waxes, fats and fish oil as a finish. Would be nice if I could in the future be able to tan hides locally and not have to worry about cost of hides as much since I could be able to cut some of the cost of bridle/veg. Oil tanned and chrome tanning would be out of the question. I will try it out eventually on a small scale. Anyone knows how hides were split back before machinery? Are there any full size hand crank splitters out there?

for pit tanned veg: Where to buy hair on hide or ready to tan hides? can a regular artisan splitter be able to split half hides or would one need a full size splitter and how much would a tannery sized splitter cost? What other machinery or tools are there for flattening and decreasing leather? What chemicals, oils or fats are necessary?

This is just more out of curiosity than anything. To raise a cow what is required besides the location? anyone who is familiar or has a rough guess: Any permits or fees needed to own calfs/cows Cost to buy calf Cost to Feed the calf until it is the right size Is it legal without permit to to breed a cow or are these allowed only in special conditions How many months - years till calf is the prime age Cost for abattoir fee How would one sell the meat from the animal to a supermarket Cost to buy salted cow hides?Cheaper even after the meat is sold in the above situation.

Couldn't find the pages on my computer.. I would refer to Stelmack as he most likely read the books. If I remember correctly I read on the website or from stelmack that Valerie michael was a former student of Francis from the manuals you are referring to so he does have credentials if that is true. It was a long time ago that I read this so.. I may be wrong. The first manual had things like costing and material assessment. It looked to be more for those looking to do this as a business vs other books that are just for hobby.

Just a heads up the last time I emailed the site (3-4 months ago) there was no reply. There was a member that offered to sell me the manuals and he was saying that francis, the owner of the site has some health issues. so there is no guarantee that you will get the ebook once you click buy. From what I can tell from these are the only ebooks/manuals available of its kind that is still in circulation. To save costs they are done in ebook form.

Im thinking of how companies bring there goods back and forth through borders and different states. When you cross through a border what paperwork or pass do you have that documents what goods you are bringing across the border or to different states? How much in fees do you believe are charged on these items if any? Do you have a pass like a nexus or any special trucking permits that are required by law? On a more relevant level for those that use a nexus pass to bring goods back and forth the border how do you document what goods you are bringing in (what paperwork?) and what duties/taxes/fees are added? Its my understanding that any thing under 200 dollars is tax and duty free. Is this statement true?

I make the last stitch in the corner slightly longer. If your iron is spaced 3mm and theres 7mm of leather away from the edge the last stitch is an extra 1mm. If there is 8mm of leather you could lengthen two stitches to 4mm each to even it out. The longest stitch that a 3mm stitch will be is 5mm. The best way is to create a pattern that is made for that SPI so that you know the stitching will fit. You could go as far as making a mock up on a scrap replica and see how many mm's to tweak.

shipping to canada free as well? What sucks buying from America is the exchange rate (20 percent more right now), customs duties, and having to pay shipping even though its slightly more or same to ship to canada for select items. A 200 dollar total to USA can be 300+ after shipping, duties, and exchange rate to Canada. Do you do any forged dies strong enough that they don't need reinforcements? Can you do dies with 90 degree corners (cut and welded)?

you may need a different sharpening stone. Silicon carbide stone, oil stone or small fine pocket size diamond stone (wont deform or dish) . http://www.dmtsharp.com/sharpeners/pocket-models/dia-sharp/ There could be a burr on the tip, an issue with the tip or the awl might not be tapered among other things.

In 2 years leather jumped from 300- 600 dollars to 2600 dollars? Was it rare or am I missing something? When buying designer or luxury goods a large portion is from advertising and from the brand itself. So If it gets custom made you have to subtract the amount that is added for advertising and the brand name. A 3 thousand dollar bag without the name is really 500-700 dollars for the same custom made bag and 50 dollars for made in china. In most cases the luxury bag is better crafted than one a custom maker can do (professional pattern maker, professional machine operators and skilled craftsman). A designer brand one designer by a designer but made in china wont be as good as the one you can make. When they get it made they are for the most part buying a replica. It only starts to become better than the original once they actually customize different pockets, zippers and the specifics. If you include them to look at the process and get them to sit down with you for 20 minutes and for you to do a free consultation (choosing leathers, threads, zippers, asking what they carry in their bags and giving ideas to the type of pockets they want, what they intend to use it for). All this adds to the product and in the end is a better product than the luxury branded one. They can't make a bag specifically for one person. If someone has the eye for luxury goods and unique leather items they will come to you more likely than the designers because they already owned one of your products and can tell they are a great deal. Let them know you are willing to give a small discount on the first product then the next product they are more willing to pay for a reasonable rate. Its more of a gamble when they go with a maker vs a company that they are guaranteed to like. The consultation and any actual products can help with this.