grumpyguy

Very Nice work from what I can see. Geometric stamp designs are not easy to do well and it looks like you've pulled it off. The unusual design of the seat jockeys make it an interesting peice. Is there some particular reason for it? Maybe easier acess to que the hoses flank. That would fit with the cutout skirt style. Love the high bound cantel. I could see Bruce's point, It would be a great saddle design for a youth to growup in. Tell us all a little more. I think you have sparked our intrest!

Now that is a classy idea, timjtodd! Never would have come up with that on my own. Is that your idea or did you get it somewhere else? I have a saddle coming up that would be perfect for. I think I'll tool them to match and then lace it to match the lacing on the skirt jockeys. Should look really nice. Thanks for posting the idea.

Very nice, I like clocks, I could see it now, My wife ask what time is it? I'd give her a smartalec answer like, "It's a twig past a nut." (Acorn I mean! ) Very, very nice work!

There is a drawing of a drawdown stand and stitchinghorse in Bruce Grant's, Making Cowboy Gear and Braiding Rawhide, book. (Not the newer braiding leather book.) The book is paper back with a brown cover and white writing. Last I knew it is still popular in leathercraft stores. The photos are somewhat out dated but there is a wealth of written information illustrated by drawings and photos. It is still relavant today, especially if you repair old saddles and tack made by other makers. I made my drawdown stand from the drawing about fifteen years ago. There are no dimensions provided, so you have to be inventive and come up with those for yourself, but then it is not hard. Mine is 28 inches long and 36 inches high overall, which for me works out quite well. The Stolman book is much better illustrated and easier to get the idea, but the book cost more cost more. ($70.00 vs just under $10.00.) If your just starting out money sometimes has to (not that we like it) dictate what and when we can buy things. If you plan on developing this into a business or serious hobby then you should consider investing in the Stolman books. (I had to start out with Grant's book which worked out okay for me.) Check out your nearest leathercraft store and take a look, there are alot of reference books out there. (More than ever and you are liable to find what you want.) All of the books mentioned so far can be found on Amazon if a trip to a leather craft store is out of the question but it is difficult to see exactly what's inside. If you need it I could give you a sketch and measurements I used for my stand.

Well let's see , newer artist, Hmm... here they are George Straight, Clint Black, Trisha Yearwood, (tol' yall I was no spring chicken and no Garth Brooks or Dixie Chicks by the way.) Older artist..., Hank Williams (Don't have any Hank Williams Jr. stuff either.), George Jones, Tanya Tucker, Marty Robbins... Different stuff, Beethoven, Gospel, and a cd that came with a movie titled " Gentle Country Monments" (Stings with no vocal, probably gets played the most right now. ) Wrangler Christmas cd for the holidays (complimentary copy from the local western wear store when I bought a pair or two of jeans.) So mostly mellowish type stuff to keep from distracting me too much! (My nearly grown teenagers do that often enough and then I have to yell at them, can't think when there is too much noise. ) Used to have a local radio station that played a variety of old and new country music but they shut down and all that's left is a station that plays only new stuff. (I think it's the same four or five songs over and over, (I could be wrong, might be the same two or three.) all day and all night, or it all sounds the same, can't really tell! ) My wife has one Yannie cd (Big fat Yawn), a Celtic Christmas cd, some Kenny G, several more Gospel cds and then some Mannheim Steamroller. What can I say her friends at her work have corrupted (No wrong word), "influenced" her.(Right word.) Disclaimer: The veiws expressed here are soley the veiw of Grumyguy and are presented for entertainment value only. They are not to be construed as the views of the management, whoever that maybe. Have a great time listening to the music of your choice!

Mulefool, Nice site, turnsout I've seen your advertisements in several horse magazines and read articals from some of your customers over the years. You make nice gear! The Nikkels should be able to give you some advise on tree making. Great thing about packsaddle bars is the bottom is the side you really must fit and the rest is subject to your preferences. Really like the artwork too! Grumpy

Mulefool, Most retired people can work a certain number of hours and/or dollar amounts per year before upsetting thier retirement benifits., so you need to check into that too. (I had one dependable retired employee I relied heavily on that reached their limit and had to take an extended vacation at a very inoppertune time for me.) My failure to keep track made for a very difficult time. I had also thought of the independant approach but if they are actually working in your shop you want to be sure there will be no chance of an accident would come back on you. You also need to check and see if you home/business insurance would cover any injuries or if the employee (contractor) has his own insurance. (Ask them provide proof of the current policy.) I used to manage a butcher shop and there was no way around the workers comp insurance issues as it was a legal requirement by the state. Fortunatly the only person who hurt themselves very seriously was myself during my thirteen years there. (Cut the end of my left index finger nearly off.) Stitching it back on and the medication was much more expensive than I ever would have guessed. I also was astounded how long I sat in the ER holding the end of my finger on before anyone came to treat it. It was between three and four hours after first walking in the door, then fifteen to twenty minutes to get it stiched up, a shot and get a prescription. Take care and good luck!

Thanks Tosch, We'll do! Sweden, thats a way away kind of interesting what brings people together! Bruce, I know the names (who doesn't if they have been arond the cutting horse arena.) I repaired alot of cutting saddles for people who wanted to be like the trainers and competitors you mentioned. Thanks again for you help!

Bruce, I've been present for a few of those myself. Taken friends to the emergency room minus teeth, stiches and the sort, wives cringe when we say were going out to work cows. Most incidents seem to happen on the ground but there was this one time, I took a colt that seemed to be coming a long quite well into a liveoak rough after three cows with new born calves. Cows got defensive. Colt decided he didn't like the confined space, the border collie and the cows. (My fault, I knew he was a little green for such antics.) He bolted into a liveoak tree dislocating my shoulder, I found myself clinging to mane hair and hide. I tried to climb partway back up and found I was no longer on the saddle and it was under the horse! I kicked off or was bucked off who knows which and hit the ground hard. (A friend said it looked to him like I just let go.) The colt went off bucking and kicking. He was later found all tangled up in the saddle on his back in the brush. The rig only suffered a broken offside billet (It pays to change those out often.) and a few scrapes. The colt was fine. (I was sure it would all be destroyed.) If those trees are as good as you say I'll have to get serious about it. I did look them up online and found a site under "Timberline Saddlery" but it did not have trees listed, just ready made saddles. Have I got the wrong outfit? My daughter is driving me crazy wanting her own saddle. Can't say as I blame her. I have a great little mare for her to ride and she does not get much time in due to the saddle being too heavy for her, a lighter weight saddle will be just the ticket. Thanks for the info! As a side note I noticed on other topics you mention cutting horses and saddles, I got started fixing cutting saddles at first and went on to other western saddles. Do you still compete?

JAM what Rod told you is absolutly true. (It ought to be, he is a very experienced tree maker with years behind him, and we would do well to listen.) Men's seat areas are flat in comparision to womens which are more rounded. (That's kind of a Duh, everyone knows that thing for me to say.) The narrower bars with the quickly decending sides and the more pronounced higher rise in front of the seat do alot to stablize the rider. I of course being a man have found similar seats an advantage while riding rough and difficult country at breakneck speeds. (The cows and calves never do what you want, go where you want and whatever they do they do it fast.) It does not allow for the same "close contact" so popular and as defined by many of todays horsemen but many accomplished riders were more than successful in riding horses prior to the birth of that "new concept." (That is only my opinion. I think people get on a soap box regarding alot of issues and then get dogmatic about it, most good saddlemakers were making "close contact" or really well fitted saddles long before the "New Concept" was conceived and coined into a phrase. I've even seen a few old west coast saddle with the skirts cutout for the better and easier leg ques.) My wife has the same complaint sitting in most saddles. The instability problem has ruined riding for her and now she won't ride anymore. (Even some vehicle seats are the same for her.) Of interest to you would be the discussion about the "Lady Wade." There were a couple of saddle makers who seemed to really know what they were talking about ground seats and thier insight might be helpful as well. It all comes down to this for the treemaker and saddlemaker, you must fit the saddle to the horse to avoid damage and injury, (Treemaker's main job) thus keeping riding somewhat safe for both horse and rider. Then you must fit the saddle to the rider to keep riding relatively pain free and fun. (Treemaker and saddlemakers job.) David's fitting as he describes, is a way to make sure the rider fits thier saddle and there is alot to be said for the thought put into that. The trick is for a craftsman to take the information gained from the casting and apply it correctly to the seat when constructing the saddle. I know many experienced and talented saddlemakers can make a great fitting saddle without the casting. Really in the end it is the client who must be pleased with an attractive and well fitted saddle how ever it is done.

I have seen these terms advertised in the High Country Cowboy web site as well. They also sell the Mc Call saddles. I have recently heard people using the terms in regards to custom saddles. I myself have wondered what this "Lady Wade" was. In looking at only one tree which was supposed to be a "Lady Wade" it appears as previously mentioned a little narrower in the bars. (most noticable) The bars themselves appeared to have been thinned down, the cantle and forks were somewhat scaled down as well, "to lighten the tree." (So I was told) The portion of the bars behind the fork appeared thinner than the average wade while rising slightly higher. I was not able to measure the tree and was not told who had made it. (I did not ask.) Overall this particular tree gave me the impression it was not built for much other than trailriding, meaning I would not use it to rope with. I'm somewhat older and approaching that "set in my ways type of thinking" and at the time was somewhat dismissive. (I'm still young enough to realize I could be wrong too.) I guess the point I'm getting around to, is the treemaker does control the basis for the seat shape and there is only so much a good saddlemaker can do to offset that for a customer desiring something nonstandard. I suspect this style of tree was created for the trail riders who like the look of the traditional wade while limiting weight and size for easier saddling and maybe an attempt to make riding easier on thier prized mounts. The narrower seat is a bonus for the smaller framed rider. Look at some of the old time saddles they are not as flat in the seat, shorter seats and narrower than todays wider, longer versions. (13 and 14 inch seats were the norm.) Those saddles were designed for men and horses which were smaller and carried less weight on them and tended to be "hard muscled" from much physical labor. Horse breeders have also bred bulkier, broader, more muscular horses for todays market. (Thus the saying among Quarter Horse owners, "Big hip, pretty eyes and a broad back," was popular back in the seventies and eighties until those lines were found to carry genetic problems in the mid to late ninties. I know my daughter has a very diffcult time saddling a 14.3 hand horse with a fifty something pound roping saddle, so weight alone would be a concern for her as well. (Imagine a 16 hand horse.) I'm not any more knowlegeable than anyone else so far but thought I'd add my two cents. I am not familar with the Timberline "ladywade" tree and if anyone has more info I would be interested. I do plan on building an in skirt rigged trail saddle for my daughter. I have not decided on the tree style yet but I know she favors the slick fork or wade saddles. She currently is using my modified association full double rigged rope saddle.

I have not been around rodeo for sometime and had no idea what the slogan meant. I would not want to offend anyone and cancer of any sort is not a laughing matter. I'm glad to see serious efforts by the Wrangler and the PRCA contestants to support research for these particular cancer victims. That however does not change the the chaps were well made and excellently executed!

I have managed a number of small businesses. When the work load is beyond what you can do yourself (or with the employees you already have.) then your right, it is time to look for help. In the past I've hired prospects and they knew they were on a trial basis. Many worked out well others did not for a variety of reasons. It is always hard for me to hand off a job to someone else. I have my whims and when I tell someone how I want something done I expect it done in the manner I've specified. I give real specific information, show them, explain why, let them try it and when I think they have it down, I let them work on thier own and come back to check. You have to be willing to invest that kind of time if you want someone who will be an asset later on. (At times they will add to you scrap heap, I know I did when learning new jobs.) Employees I've found are often what I make them. If I'm sloppy and give incomplete instructions and just expect them to see me do it and perform to my satisfaction (I have done this at times because I did not want to be bothered) it won't happen, then I'm unhappy and make them unhappy. Hiring an employee will slow you down at first and make your job more difficult. You will have to stop figure out what jobs you'll want them to do. Question is how long will that last and what adjustments can you make to offset and bring up the shops production. I have found retired people to be great employees. They have a long track record and usually a strong work ethic. Most want only part time work which may be what you need. How ever there comes the issue of heath and availability. Some like to vacation in the summer when you are in full swing with repairs and orders. The other option is to find someone who wants to learn the trade. (Getting harder all the time as the younger generation would rather play video games and avoid any thing that looks like physical work.) Last but not least are what requirements does your state have regarding workers compensation and any forms of disability insurance. Would your insurance you already have suffice? Don't forget those legal aspects as you don't want to find that out after your newly hired employee cuts themselves (likely they will) and your trying to explain it. I guess my point is I would hire someone only if... 1. They had the intrest and ability to learn. (Some people don't have the mental vision to produce good work and just can't handle hand tools well.) 2. Were polite and well mannered when in contact with my customers. (Decent phone and personal communication skills.) 3. I was willing to invest the time into them and my business. (Small business is tough to do this.) 4. My work load was consitently beyond what I was capable of doing and I found myself behind the great majority of the time.

Those are great! Your own design? I favor these longer "eagle beak" types and since often they are used as mentioned before to keep feet warm (For some reason it is harder to keep feet warm when mounted on a horse then when you're afoot, even in snow.) they are usually subject to adverse weather and moisture. That often results in the ends curling up. Many makers will stitch a heavy weight triangular leather piece on the bottom ends to serve as wieghts to discourage the curling. With regular care and oiling this works well. I have not made the long taps like these and have been wanting to give it a try myself. Your fine job inspires me to get to it sooner than later. Very, very classy job. By the way they are right, scrap sheep shearling does make wonderful liners for these and it is really effective in insulating toes even when wet or damp, so keep your scraps.

Hey Dink, I guess in that case "Don't ask, Don't tell" applys. Just take the money and make the goods. (Sorry, Couldn't resist after this mornings topic in saddle constrction.)

I really like what I've heard tree and saddle makers say, "This is not rocket science." (While wiping coffee from my screen and keyboard, dang, it's going to be all sticky for a month.) I think we really should ask ourselves how close is close enough. Unless we plan on alot of "nude saddle time" jeans ON should be close enough. But I'll say this, woke me up this morning! If someone wants to take thier pants off for me to fit a saddle to thier behind, I think I'll join the horses in the different zip code thing, Bruce! LOL! Might save death by jealous, what is it now? Oh yeah, "significant other!" (For those of you outside the U.S. where you can still say things without fear of offense, it means, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, husband, spouse... well you get the picture.) I can see it now, trying to explain, "What? I was just professionally fitting a client for a new saddle." My wife ain't buyin' and I'm certain I would be packin up my traps (stuff) on the wrong end of my favorite shotgun! LOL! Hey though really, another option might be those "spandex bike shorts" I see people wear riding thier bikes along the road. (Probably less fun for those on the singles scene but safer for us married types.) That way everyones covered, literally! Ha,Ha!

Everyone above is offering good advice but what you have to decide what you want the stiching to look like. I have usually stained and then stiched. (I liked the idea of punching stitch holes and then staining, I have not done that before.) I made a pair of spur straps and wanted brown thread rather than white and it's an hours drive to the nearest craft store. (Now it is futher as that store went out of business.) I tried some stain on the waxed thread and was surprised to find it did take the stain. I simply stiched them up and stained it. Came out great! So really it just means if yer bent on a certain effect you have to plan out best how to get it. General order I use is layout, carve, bevel, camoflage, add detail cuts, staining, finish edges and assembly (meaning stitching riveting and add hardware.) On some pieces I will wait to finish stiched edgeds until they have been stiched, then I go back trim and edge them. This is more than what you asked for but I thought I'd put it out there for anyhelp it might give. Good luck and keep at it, won't be long and you'll gain the confidence and experience to turn out your own ideas and discover what works best for you.

Very, Very nice, Dink! My days of rodeo are far past but I sure like to see nice work. Incidently I figure I'd add my two cents regarding the pink pair. I've known some tough gals who could darn well wear anything they wished. Thirty years ago my dad worked for the U.S. Forest Service and he hired his first woman fire fighter. The crew messed with her for the first few days until they asked her to go bring them the old horseshoeing anvil. She walked over, picked it up with one hand and tucked it under her arm and marched right over to them. They (the guys who were the cool, pretty boy college types nailing down a summer job) didn,t bother her after that and she returned to the crew every summer for many years. Some of the toughest people I've known have been women.

Leatheroo, Nice Job! I like the design of the side quiver in particular, Is that your design? Also does your customer plan on using just field points of did he have you put a wooden plug in the bottom for broadheads? (Makes it so the broadheads don't cut through the bottom of your beatiful job.)

Not a bad start, you'll soon find your projects speeding up and your eye and skill advancing, you'll look back and see how you've progressed. Keep up the good work,it pays off! You'll find short cuts for the staining and dying, (It's not hard, just takes time, patients and practice.) and before you know it you'll be puttin' out great work. (Especially if that is an example of your first project.) Grumpyguy

Welcome Tim, Look forward to seeing some of those products posted here! It's nice to see the work of other craftsmen, the whole idea of this site. I'm new as well and have really enjoyed it. (Probably spend too much time looking instead of working.) What kind of tack do you make?Being from the big "T" I'd assume it's western but then again I could be assuming wrong. Spent some time in the Dallas-Fortworth area in college. (I won't say how long ago.) I'm now out here in California's Sierra Nevada foothills, (No California is not all beaches and vinyards.) kind of in between the Vaquero country (old Spainsh mission and cattle country on the coast) and Nevada's Buckaroo country. Good Luck and hope you enjoy carrying on your family's tradition. Grumpyguy.

Tracy, what particular style of spur are you looking for? There are many many different types, Mexican, California, Midwest, Southwest, Northern Plains, ect, ect... Each type has it's own features and were developed in specific reigions by the reigions resident spur and bit makers. (In California the bits become even more reigion specific, Fresnos, Visalia, Santa Barbara, Carmels, well by now you got the picture. Each maker has his own style on top of the regional styles. If your looking for resonable spurs in the custom or semi custom catigory there are several. BC Silver in Modesto, CA sells quality Mexican made copies of most styles in the three hunded dollar range. (Again check for them in a Google search.) I have made spurs and bits as a hobby which I will continue to do from time to time. The time and work involved make it clear as to why premier makers like "Marsh Bros." for example get high prices for thier work. I have a set of spurs that there is noway I would sell because of the time I have invested in them. Just thought I'd mention this and perhaps give you another option or fill in until you can find the guy you really want to work with.

Mulefool, the wooden saw bucks are usually softwood bars and oak cross pieces. Packers I know use pine or fir for the bars around here when they repair thier old trees. (I have heard of Cottonwood and Alder also used, both are classified as "hardwood" but are very soft as hardwoods go.) The cross pieces are white oak because of it's resistance to weather and moisture changes. (Same reason boat builders use white oak over the more common red oak on the market.) I don't know if this helps you any. The dimention of the sawbuck lumber is usually 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" stock. When fitted together there are a front and a rear sawbuck. The rear go on as they are. The front sawbuck must be cut out to clear for the withers and padding. I don't off hand know the angle that is used. It looks like 90 degrees or something close. The real kicker will be the angle at which you attach the bars. I suggest checking with Difani's Backcountry or Pack Shop, both are in Idaho and both have great web sites. Both shops indicate they manufacture thier own equipment which they sell. I found them by searhing in Google under "pack saddle." I like the deckers better because if I have to fit a new or different animal all I have to do is use a heating tip on a welding rig to heat and bend the arches to get the bars to fit properly. (Plumbers torch and mapp gas will work if the weather is not too cold and your not out in the wind but is not quite hot enough to get nice even bends.) Some of the packers around here will not even give thought to deckers because they traditionally have always used the sawbucks. Best of luck, Grumpyguy

Very nice, clean job. Sometimes I'm not sure what is more demanding a nice clean and simple job that is well executed or a beatuful ornate job that is equally well executed. Well you nailed it down with this one. Great job. I like the dee ring for the crupper snap in the back. I think this should be standard on all saddles as it can be a safety concern for riders in rough country. I should qualify that with of course the required training of the animal before using a crupper! :Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius: I'm of course "preaching to the chior" here and "beating a dead horse." (Sorry found the smiley guy way too funny and had to use it.) I've never tried stamping a rough out surface like on your seat, how difficult is that to do? Does it require more care or a special trick with casing the leather? I've seen saddles with similar stamping but they did not look as nice as what you've done here.

Andy, A job that's all class! I took a very close look at the bound cantel. The stiching on the front appears perfect. The back is so clean and the stiching is not visible, howed you do it? I have not yet built one of these types but have repaird one. It did not come out as well as I would have liked. I'd appeciate any pointers or help you could give as I expect to be trying one again.