Key Report post Posted August 24, 2022 Hi All, Wondering if I could get some advice. I am a novice when it comes to leather craft but trying to learn and get into the craft with the intention of making highend handmade small leather goods. on doing do I am trying to get my tools together so I can start my journey. However, on research picking irons I am totally confused which ones to get as a beginner. There are so many brands and types of iron. For instance would it be advised to get the more traditional type requiring a awl or the diamond cut that punches right through. Thank you in advance for your help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Klara Report post Posted August 24, 2022 Personally I am in favour of only marking my stitches and working with an awl. It is more difficult at first, I made quite a few things I am not proud of, meaning it's an investment in time and leather. But the stitching irons can be cheap - I am happy with Chinese sets. Incidentally, if you get diamond irons, you are not forced to punch right through - with a slight tap you are still only marking your stitches. I am still using the ones I got at the very beginning in a "6 leather tools for € 20" (or so) package. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zuludog Report post Posted August 24, 2022 (edited) Welcome to leatherwork -- and the Forum -- and to the fun! As you've mentioned, sorting out chisels & pricking irons is confusing; here's my explanation -- PRICKING IRONS Have short stubby teeth; you hit them lightly on the surface of the leather and make marks to show the position of the stitching holes, but you make the holes themselves with a saddler's awl aka a diamond awl.. This is the traditional method, and although it looks easy, you need experience and concentration to do it consistently and neatly. For that reason many people have moved on to -- STITCHING CHISELS Have longer prongs so you both mark the position of the holes and make the holes themselves at the same time, which is easier, but not completely foolproof, so you still have to concentrate and be precise. A further complication is that they have evolved into two types - French or European style which have flat sided prongs and flat tips Diamond or Japanese style which have prongs with a diamond cross section and pointed tips The diamond style are easier to place, but some people think the French style make a more attractive stitch, though there isn't much in it You can, of course, tap these sort of chisels lightly and use them just to mark the holes, similar to the pricking irons. If the combined thickness of the leather is too thick for the prongs to penetrate fully, usually about 7 or 8mm, you can complete the holes with an awl. For both types the prongs are set at an angle to the main body of the chisel LACING CHISELS Have larger flat prongs set in line with the main body of the chisel - you don't want these for sewing with thread I suggest you start with diamond stitching chisels with 3mm spacing, and take it from there. I don't know many suppliers in the USA but these would be as good as any to start - Diamond Stitching Chisel Set from www.weaverleathersupply.com Craft Pro Fine Diamond Chisels from www.tandyleather.com - I use these, bought them when Tandy had a store in the UK Whatever you get, you shouldn't hit chisels with a steel hammer or that will damage them, so you will also need a soft mallet, such as hide or nylon There is a Thread about stitching chisels at the start of the Sewing Leather section in this forum There are YouTube videos about choosing leatherwork tools for beginners, and also watch videos on making the items you want and you'll see how other people do things. They are similar, but slightly different, reflecting the preferences of each leather worker. Edited August 24, 2022 by zuludog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PastorBob Report post Posted August 24, 2022 33 minutes ago, zuludog said: Diamond Stitching Chisel Set from www.weaverleathersupply.com Great explanation, @zuludog. I have tried several sets of diamond chisels and found the ones from Weaver Leather to be the best (considering I am not buying high end chisels). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomE Report post Posted August 24, 2022 Very happy with the European style pricking irons from Rocky Mountain Leather. Using a sewing awl provides versatility in tidy sewing of odd shapes, very heavy leather (20+ oz), and complicated assemblies like sewing a fixed loop on a buckle turn. Stitching chisels generally create larger holes that don't match the thread size, which IMO defeats the purpose of hand sewing. I use awls of different sizes for fine (9-10 stitches per inch) and coarser (5-6 stitches per inch to match machine sewing) stitching. Highly recommend Stohlman's book on Hand Sewing Leather. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zuludog Report post Posted August 24, 2022 (edited) Here are a couple of tips for using stitching chisels - Lubricate the prongs by rubbing them with beeswax now & again, to make them easier to place & remove Hold down the leather with a small block of wood up against the prongs when removing them, to avoid distorting the leather & stitching holes. Sand the corners of the block to avoid scratching the leather This video shows how to use the separate pricking iron and diamond awl; she uses this method in other videos Edited August 24, 2022 by zuludog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tugadude Report post Posted August 24, 2022 I had this "sticky" topic created just for conversations such as this so we don't have to reinvent the wheel each time. I agree that the stitching chisels offered by Weaver Leather are a good option. There are all sorts of variations and many of them are popular for different reasons. Some prefer the diamond shape while some favor the more "slit-like" holes created by irons with flat teeth. The best choice is the one that provides the look you want to achieve in the most economic manner. Choosing one because someone else says it is great may be helpful or not. Just because one person likes something doesn't mean you will get the same results or be happy with the results. So much depends on execution. First, you have to determine how far from the edge you want your stitching line to be. Second, you need to mark the stitching line with a divider or other tool, ensuring the lines are perfectly straight. Third, you need to make sure that you follow those lines, keeping the chisel perfectly vertical. Any leaning can and will cause the stitching line to become "wonky". Fourth, the choice of needles and thread are crucial. Thread either too thin or too thick can detract from aesthetics. Choosing the "right" size for the project is somewhat learned through experience. Nigel Armitage does make recommendations and they are very helpful. You can find the suggestions within the reviews he gives of various irons. It is on his website. Fifth, the hole spacing matters. Again, this relates to aesthetics. Sixth, pulling the thread in the proper manner, using correct tension and either tapping down the stitch line or not, all affect the aesthetics. The bottom line, so far as I'm concerned is to figure out what aesthetics appeal to yourself and then work towards executing all of the above in a manner which achieves a satisfying result. There is no microwave for experience, but it is true that there are some helpful recommendations out there that will help you along. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Key Report post Posted August 25, 2022 18 hours ago, Klara said: Personally I am in favour of only marking my stitches and working with an awl. It is more difficult at first, I made quite a few things I am not proud of, meaning it's an investment in time and leather. But the stitching irons can be cheap - I am happy with Chinese sets. Incidentally, if you get diamond irons, you are not forced to punch right through - with a slight tap you are still only marking your stitches. I am still using the ones I got at the very beginning in a "6 leather tools for € 20" (or so) package. Thanks much appreciated. I will search on YT for stitching with a awl. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Key Report post Posted August 25, 2022 15 hours ago, zuludog said: Welcome to leatherwork -- and the Forum -- and to the fun! As you've mentioned, sorting out chisels & pricking irons is confusing; here's my explanation -- PRICKING IRONS Have short stubby teeth; you hit them lightly on the surface of the leather and make marks to show the position of the stitching holes, but you make the holes themselves with a saddler's awl aka a diamond awl.. This is the traditional method, and although it looks easy, you need experience and concentration to do it consistently and neatly. For that reason many people have moved on to -- STITCHING CHISELS Have longer prongs so you both mark the position of the holes and make the holes themselves at the same time, which is easier, but not completely foolproof, so you still have to concentrate and be precise. A further complication is that they have evolved into two types - French or European style which have flat sided prongs and flat tips Diamond or Japanese style which have prongs with a diamond cross section and pointed tips The diamond style are easier to place, but some people think the French style make a more attractive stitch, though there isn't much in it You can, of course, tap these sort of chisels lightly and use them just to mark the holes, similar to the pricking irons. If the combined thickness of the leather is too thick for the prongs to penetrate fully, usually about 7 or 8mm, you can complete the holes with an awl. For both types the prongs are set at an angle to the main body of the chisel LACING CHISELS Have larger flat prongs set in line with the main body of the chisel - you don't want these for sewing with thread I suggest you start with diamond stitching chisels with 3mm spacing, and take it from there. I don't know many suppliers in the USA but these would be as good as any to start - Diamond Stitching Chisel Set from www.weaverleathersupply.com Craft Pro Fine Diamond Chisels from www.tandyleather.com - I use these, bought them when Tandy had a store in the UK Whatever you get, you shouldn't hit chisels with a steel hammer or that will damage them, so you will also need a soft mallet, such as hide or nylon There is a Thread about stitching chisels at the start of the Sewing Leather section in this forum There are YouTube videos about choosing leatherwork tools for beginners, and also watch videos on making the items you want and you'll see how other people do things. They are similar, but slightly different, reflecting the preferences of each leather worker. Cheers for the info. I don’t mind investing time if the outcome is favourable. Watching YouTube all I have seen of the items of interest they use the Diamond Chisels but something I am not quite sure about with the angled holes with shoes. I too am from the UK and there is not many places about. I will look for the thread on stitching chisels again. I did look before posting but failed to find anything….. Pron because im new to this forum stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Key Report post Posted August 25, 2022 15 hours ago, TomE said: Very happy with the European style pricking irons from Rocky Mountain Leather. Using a sewing awl provides versatility in tidy sewing of odd shapes, very heavy leather (20+ oz), and complicated assemblies like sewing a fixed loop on a buckle turn. Stitching chisels generally create larger holes that don't match the thread size, which IMO defeats the purpose of hand sewing. I use awls of different sizes for fine (9-10 stitches per inch) and coarser (5-6 stitches per inch to match machine sewing) stitching. Highly recommend Stohlman's book on Hand Sewing Leather. Thanks. You raise a good point about differing awls as I need to have fine holes generally. The more I research the more I sway towards the traditional method with the awl might take longer to learn but seems you have more control and flexibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomE Report post Posted August 25, 2022 Just now, Key said: Thanks. You raise a good point about differing awls as I need to have fine holes generally. The more I research the more I sway towards the traditional method with the awl might take longer to learn but seems you have more control and flexibility. Sewing with an awl is one of my favorite leathercrafting activities. You will need a stitching horse or pony, or saddlers clam to hold the work as you juggle the awl and 2 needles. Learning to sharpen an awl blade is essential to your happiness while sewing. No need to buy a fancy, sharp awl -- it will get dull and you'll need to sharpen it sooner or later. I mostly use Osborne #42 or #43 harness awls and shape the blade as I sharpen them. The points are too broad/blunt IMO so I put a more gradual taper on the point while sharpening the cutting edges. The awls eventually get narrower with repeated sharpening and those narrow awls are used for finer sewing. When I'm pushing through really thick leather (20+ oz) I use a peg awl haft with #44 or #45 awl. I think the ideal awl blade has a sharp point that pierces the leather, whereas the wider shank portion of the awl is relatively dull and stretches the hole as the awl is inserted. After making the stitch the leather relaxes and the hole closes around the thread. Highly recommend reading the Stohlman book on hand sewing leather, and videos from Armitage leather and JH Leather for sewing and awl sharpening methods. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zuludog Report post Posted August 25, 2022 (edited) I've used a few different awls, but have settled on an Osborne #42 blade in a simple pear shaped haft Traditionally you buy a separate blade & haft then fit them together yourself, which is fiddly, but you only need to do it once - either by knocking them together, or drilling & gluing with epoxy. Or shop around and buy an awl ready assembled There are several YT videos on assembling & sharpening an awl JH Leather's recent video 'awl you need to know' is helpful, also, she does stitching with an awl in many of her videos Here are some UK suppliers, not in any particular order - https://www.metropolitanleather.com https://www.leather4craft.co.uk https://www.artisanleather.co.uk https://www.proatelierplus.com https://www.identityleathercraft.com https://www.georgebarnsleyandsons.co.uk https://www.sfleather.co.uk https://www.jwoodleathers.co.uk I do leatherwork as a hobby, and I use diamond stitching chisels, so I don't need to work quickly, and I mostly use an awl to complete or open up existing holes. This means I put down my awl if I don't need it. But if you're going to use an awl for stitching, you should probably try holding the needles & awl in your hand together, so you might find a haft with a narrow neck is better for this; search for appropriate videos. Edited August 25, 2022 by zuludog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zuludog Report post Posted August 25, 2022 (edited) KEY -- I've just noticed that Artisan Leather are selling pricking irons at half price in their Clearance section. I haven't used them, but they look good, and pricking irons would be OK if you want to use an awl Oh, and you'll need a sewing clam or pony as well Edited August 25, 2022 by zuludog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Klara Report post Posted August 25, 2022 21 hours ago, zuludog said: STITCHING CHISELS Have longer prongs so you both mark the position of the holes and make the holes themselves .... French or European style which have flat sided prongs and flat tips Sorry, but my information is different: My French supplier states clearly that the things with the V-shaped teeth are pricking irons for marking stitches and that you can't pierce leather that's more than 1.5 mm thick. https://www.decocuir.com/griffe-frapper-precision-deco-cuir-300-n9-2dents-c2x36253279 Which is logical if you look at the teeth. @Key There are quite a lot of good suppliers in England (AbbeyofEngland, for one), and several leatherworkers with YouTube channels, amongst them J.H. Leather and Nigel Armitage. Who incidentally have practically opposite way of working, but both produce wonderful things. Have fun discovering leatherwork! Btw, TomE mentioned a stitching pony: If you have any experience with woodwork, (access to) tools and some wood, you can make one easily yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Key Report post Posted August 25, 2022 12 hours ago, TomE said: Sewing with an awl is one of my favorite leathercrafting activities. You will need a stitching horse or pony, or saddlers clam to hold the work as you juggle the awl and 2 needles. Learning to sharpen an awl blade is essential to your happiness while sewing. No need to buy a fancy, sharp awl -- it will get dull and you'll need to sharpen it sooner or later. I mostly use Osborne #42 or #43 harness awls and shape the blade as I sharpen them. The points are too broad/blunt IMO so I put a more gradual taper on the point while sharpening the cutting edges. The awls eventually get narrower with repeated sharpening and those narrow awls are used for finer sewing. When I'm pushing through really thick leather (20+ oz) I use a peg awl haft with #44 or #45 awl. I think the ideal awl blade has a sharp point that pierces the leather, whereas the wider shank portion of the awl is relatively dull and stretches the hole as the awl is inserted. After making the stitch the leather relaxes and the hole closes around the thread. Highly recommend reading the Stohlman book on hand sewing leather, and videos from Armitage leather and JH Leather for sewing and awl sharpening methods. Im already on the case hunting down a pony, being from the UK they are not easy to come by. Many I have seen look unnecessarily complicated and not very durable. Glad you touched on awls because that is next on my list to understand as the little browsing i have done so far on the subject like chisels have confused me. There are so many awls ive seen one called a badminton awl, stitch, scratch ect. Just looking at them all their blades seem too broad for what im looking for. I need a small hole (almost needle like) for a fine stitch as i plan on making luxury shoes and eventually small leather goods. I reached out to Jo from JH Leather who was kind enough to give me some pointers but She used much heavy leather than I intend on using. An awl with a needle like blade is what i need. I will continue reaserching. Thank you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Key Report post Posted August 25, 2022 9 hours ago, zuludog said: I've used a few different awls, but have settled on an Osborne #42 blade in a simple pear shaped haft Traditionally you buy a separate blade & haft then fit them together yourself, which is fiddly, but you only need to do it once - either by knocking them together, or drilling & gluing with epoxy. Or shop around and buy an awl ready assembled There are several YT videos on assembling & sharpening an awl JH Leather's recent video 'awl you need to know' is helpful, also, she does stitching with an awl in many of her videos Here are some UK suppliers, not in any particular order - https://www.metropolitanleather.com https://www.leather4craft.co.uk https://www.artisanleather.co.uk https://www.proatelierplus.com https://www.identityleathercraft.com https://www.georgebarnsleyandsons.co.uk https://www.sfleather.co.uk https://www.jwoodleathers.co.uk I do leatherwork as a hobby, and I use diamond stitching chisels, so I don't need to work quickly, and I mostly use an awl to complete or open up existing holes. This means I put down my awl if I don't need it. But if you're going to use an awl for stitching, you should probably try holding the needles & awl in your hand together, so you might find a haft with a narrow neck is better for this; search for appropriate videos. Thanks for all the links. like I was saying to @TomE Jo from JH Leathers messaged me with some pointers. Might be my ignorance but i need a awl with a fine needle size blade. Not sure if im looking for something that doesn’t exist. 9 hours ago, zuludog said: KEY -- I've just noticed that Artisan Leather are selling pricking irons at half price in their Clearance section. I haven't used them, but they look good, and pricking irons would be OK if you want to use an awl Oh, and you'll need a sewing clam or pony as well Thanks!! Ill take a look Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Key Report post Posted August 25, 2022 7 hours ago, Klara said: Sorry, but my information is different: My French supplier states clearly that the things with the V-shaped teeth are pricking irons for marking stitches and that you can't pierce leather that's more than 1.5 mm thick. https://www.decocuir.com/griffe-frapper-precision-deco-cuir-300-n9-2dents-c2x36253279 Which is logical if you look at the teeth. @Key There are quite a lot of good suppliers in England (AbbeyofEngland, for one), and several leatherworkers with YouTube channels, amongst them J.H. Leather and Nigel Armitage. Who incidentally have practically opposite way of working, but both produce wonderful things. Have fun discovering leatherwork! Btw, TomE mentioned a stitching pony: If you have any experience with woodwork, (access to) tools and some wood, you can make one easily yourself. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zuludog Report post Posted August 25, 2022 (edited) An Osborne #41 is a fine saddler's awl blade. Try one, and if you want anything thinner or narrower you can always thin it on a sharpening stone Pro Atelier Plus have some fine awl blades by Condor, and you can have them ready sharpened & mounted if you wish. Why not try the smallest blade by Osborne or Condor, and see how you go, they're not that expensive. But I think you might find they're narrow enough As the name implies, a round awl has a round cross section, and again as the name implies it is also called a scratch awl It is used to mark out shapes & patterns on leather; to enlarge stitching holes; to tease out & adjust stitching; and various other poking & prodding jobs in leatherwork. They're cheap enough. Edited August 25, 2022 by zuludog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomE Report post Posted August 25, 2022 Forget where I saw it but someone had sharpened a bicycle spoke to use as a fine awl for harness work. I'm thinking they were sewing 14 stitches per inch, which is out of my league. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bert03241 Report post Posted August 25, 2022 14 per inch thats crazy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zuludog Report post Posted August 25, 2022 (edited) Hmmmmm ....... I wonder .......... At the risk of sounding like John Cleese, have you actually done any leatherwork or saddle stitching yet? It's not as easy as it looks, at least not to do it neatly; remember that the people who make the YT videos such as JH Leather, Ian Atkinson, Leathercraft Masterclass, Corter Leather, Nigel Armitage and others, are experts and they've been doing it for years. And the finer or closer the stitching, the more difficult it becomes I suggest you get an awl with a small blade by Osborne or Pro Atelier Plus; 0,35 to 0,45mm synthetic thread, and John James L3912 saddler's harness needles size 004 . Then make a few card holders and wallets, and see how you get on As far as a clamp or a pony goes, if you want to make shoes, you may as well get a full size saddlers clam, aka saddlers clamp, from the start Add this to all the other stuff you'll need and you'll find that it adds up to quite a lot of money, but that's usually the case for most hobbies/sports/crafts when you start Oh, and remember you'll need leather as well! Edited August 25, 2022 by zuludog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tugadude Report post Posted August 25, 2022 From the OP: " i plan on making luxury shoes and eventually small leather goods." With respect, I think that is the wrong way around. Making shoes worthy of luxury prices requires a much higher degree of skills, and I'd argue that even experienced leatherworkers wouldn't tackle them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fredk Report post Posted August 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Bert03241 said: 14 per inch thats crazy Warning; deviation; yup, but not impossible. I inspected an Italian made saddle of 1812. It had stitches of 18 per inch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomE Report post Posted August 25, 2022 Great to dream big. I dream of building a jumping saddle while honing my skills on bridles, reins, and halters. The more I learn about saddlery the less likely my dream becomes, but I'm becoming a better judge of saddle quality and fit. Feel privileged to learn this traditional craft and practice it at whatever level I can. @Key if you learn to hand sew there will be no shortage of projects that you can do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Key Report post Posted August 25, 2022 2 hours ago, TomE said: Great to dream big. I dream of building a jumping saddle while honing my skills on bridles, reins, and halters. The more I learn about saddlery the less likely my dream becomes, but I'm becoming a better judge of saddle quality and fit. Feel privileged to learn this traditional craft and practice it at whatever level I can. @Key if you learn to hand sew there will be no shortage of projects that you can do. Thanks @TomE. I am a big dreamer and have no doubt ill get there is I work hard and persist. As previously mentioned i am a beginner so have not done any leatherwork hence my questioning and eagerness to learn. Every marathon starts with a step. i have been made aware that this particular forum is not suited to my topic of discussion so I will leave it there. Thanks for all the help and advice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
