Can of worms

[Frodo]

1 minute ago, Tugadude said:

Some do argue that saddle stitched goods are worth more.  And if they get more, what's the problem?

No problem on my end.  I charge what I charge with out the least thought to any of this.  

[chuck123wapati]

11 minutes ago, Frodo said:

That is a really pretty belt

Darn right and far above my skill level with any technique. 

[Tugadude]

As much as I love Springfield Leather, and I do, when I was there several years ago I noticed that they had begun to market a lot of finished goods, wallets, card holders, etc.  That was new, and I was intrigued so I looked at them, closely.  The stitching immediately made me cringe.  The goods looked fine I guess, but the stitching clearly was made by machine and didn't exhibit any of the hallmark qualities of saddle stitching achieved by hand.  I'll show an example below.  To me they just look "wrong".  Others will disagree, and that's fine.  Aesthetics are personal.  Expectations are personal.  If people don't care one way or another, then sure, they want to buy at the cheapest price.  Some will pay more, some won't.  Always been and always will.

[Frodo]

4 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

As much as I love Springfield Leather, and I do, when I was there several years ago I noticed that they had begun to market a lot of finished goods, wallets, card holders, etc.  That was new, and I was intrigued so I looked at them, closely.  The stitching immediately made me cringe.  The goods looked fine I guess, but the stitching clearly was made by machine and didn't exhibit any of the hallmark qualities of saddle stitching achieved by hand.  I'll show an example below.  To me they just look "wrong".  Others will disagree, and that's fine.  Aesthetics are personal.  Expectations are personal.  If people don't care one way or another, then sure, they want to buy at the cheapest price.  Some will pay more, some won't.  Always been and always will.

I agree,  hand stitched items that are done correctly look better than machine stitched

[Hags]

I'm in the process of doing a bunch of coasters for the local golf course. Definitely stamping them, not carving, except for the border. My attempts at carving and tooling remind me why I had a pretty non-artistic job most of my life. I can visualize and create just fine, but can't seem to draw a stick man without a ruler. Sheridan type/style floral is definitely harder for me.

[chuck123wapati]

14 minutes ago, Frodo said:

So here are

if stamps were invented to make the task easier and by being easier it lessens the value of that product then apples to apples when using a sewing machine as opposed to hand stitching

It clearly takes more skill to hand stitch than using a machine so in that regard hand stitched items are worth more 

Does it take more skill to hand sew than machine sew?  You learned to do both how was it for you? What if you lace instead of either?   All variables in the quandary of pricing. 

Personally i think the learning curve is similar but hand-sewing is more personal. If your just wanting more money faster then you machine sew.  If its an added "artistic" feature of your product or a seam that is actually impossible for a machine to sew then you hand sew right? 

In the business sense stamps, most any modern tools actually, were invented to make a profit , being able to turn out a product faster than by hand with less training of the employee = you can charge less and make more faster with out paying for a predetermined skill set. Embossing wheels came quickly next after stamps.  But then the artistic ability of the product maker was lost somewhat to the stamp maker, totally to the embossing wheel maker. at what point do you differentiate in the cost of the products being sold?

Is a hand tooled belt = to a stamped belt= to an embossed  belt = to a...…. actually better? They all do one thing hold up your britches.  Folks that just want a belt to hold up their britches don't buy from us they shop at Walmart. People buy from us for a different reason and that is what we put into our products that Walmart doesn't or cant.

Can i sell my hand tooled belts for what Hand stitched could sell his stamped belt for? NO i cant my work simply is not even in the ball park, I couldn't sell my stamped work for the same either even if I did the exact same design. That's a personal ability and skill set thing that is a different discussion i think about selling stuff.

[Gezzer]

Frodo has  started me thinking ............................ 

Does design fall under " artistic " skill ?  I know I have a check list that I try to go by .

1  Does it serve the purpose I had intended ?

2 Is it pleasing to the eye ( or at least not offensive ) ?

3 Is it done as simple and efficiently as possible while meeting #1 and 2 ?

No carving  , no stamping  but maybe artfully done ?  To me " art "  is VERY subjective !     

just 1 old mans views

[Frodo]

16 minutes ago, Gezzer said:

Frodo has  started me thinking ............................ 

Does design fall under " artistic " skill ?  I know I have a check list that I try to go by .

1  Does it serve the purpose I had intended ?

2 Is it pleasing to the eye ( or at least not offensive ) ?

3 Is it done as simple and efficiently as possible while meeting #1 and 2 ?

No carving  , no stamping  but maybe artfully done ?  To me " art "  is VERY subjective !     

just 1 old mans views

Simple. But very classy

leather work Is Art.

[chuck123wapati]

12 minutes ago, Frodo said:

Simple. But very classy

leather work Is Art.

absolutely!!!

or this? neither stamped nor tooled, done by hand pyrography, took the pic, edited it  to fit, scanned the transfer, is it better or worth more than a lasered picture, copied off the net and programmed in? is it art? would the lasered one be art even though human hands never touched it?

[Tugadude]

Art means different things to different people.  Here's one dictionary definition:

1. the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

    

    

    
2.  

   the various branches of creative activity, such as painting, music, literature, and dance.

    

Leatherwork CAN be art, but personally I don't view all leatherwork as art.  If I did, then the Chinese wallets I see in stores for a couple of bucks would have to be considered art.  They are leatherwork, such as it is.  

They aren't art.

[Mulesaw]

Interesting discussion.

I think that both stamping and carving could be considered art. But the entry level and learning curve aren't the same for the two, and also the carving could be said to go higher than the stamping. 

But as someone earlier said, carving needs stamping too, in order to release the full potential of the picture.

I am not very good at any of them, but when I help some kids making a belt, I show them a bit of stamping, and that immediately appeals to them because the results are instantaneous and pretty good regardless of your previous skillset. 
Some have made star constellations using the tip of a Philips screw driver, that looks just like a small star on leather. And if the creator is happy and the recipient of the work is happy, then all is OK by me.

On a side note, it is a pleasure that it is possible to have a civilized discussion even on a subject such as this with strong emotions.

[Tugadude]

8 minutes ago, Mulesaw said:

On a side note, it is a pleasure that it is possible to have a civilized discussion even on a subject such as this with strong emotions.

Amen to that brother!

[chuck123wapati]

35 minutes ago, Mulesaw said:

Interesting discussion.

I think that both stamping and carving could be considered art. But the entry level and learning curve aren't the same for the two, and also the carving could be said to go higher than the stamping. 

But as someone earlier said, carving needs stamping too, in order to release the full potential of the picture.

I am not very good at any of them, but when I help some kids making a belt, I show them a bit of stamping, and that immediately appeals to them because the results are instantaneous and pretty good regardless of your previous skillset. 
Some have made star constellations using the tip of a Philips screw driver, that looks just like a small star on leather. And if the creator is happy and the recipient of the work is happy, then all is OK by me.

On a side note, it is a pleasure that it is possible to have a civilized discussion even on a subject such as this with strong emotions.

 

26 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

Amen to that brother!

Me too, I love a good discussion anytime, especially with such a diverse bunch of folks. There are no wrong answers to the question really just different ways of looking at things. That's what human interaction is all about, expanding yourself through your experiences with different views.

[RockyAussie]

6 hours ago, Gezzer said:

Frodo has  started me thinking ............................ 

Does design fall under " artistic " skill ?  I know I have a check list that I try to go by .

1  Does it serve the purpose I had intended ?

2 Is it pleasing to the eye ( or at least not offensive ) ?

3 Is it done as simple and efficiently as possible while meeting #1 and 2 ?

No carving  , no stamping  but maybe artfully done ?  To me " art "  is VERY subjective !     

just 1 old mans views

Is that fob attached to the belt keeper? How is this so done? That to me is artistic

[mooreleatherworking]

17 hours ago, Frodo said:

A can of worms has been opened and it is a subject that needs to be discussed

carving leather vs stamping leather

 basically my question is 

Are they artistically equal in skills ?

 

 

Artistic equality is for the critics. To an artist there is no such concept. 

[Gezzer]

@RockyAussie  Here is the scoop on this and Thanks for the kind words .

 

[Klara]

16 hours ago, Tugadude said:

As much as I love Springfield Leather, and I do, when I was there several years ago I noticed that they had begun to market a lot of finished goods, wallets, card holders, etc.  That was new, and I was intrigued so I looked at them, closely.  The stitching immediately made me cringe.  The goods looked fine I guess, but the stitching clearly was made by machine and didn't exhibit any of the hallmark qualities of saddle stitching achieved by hand.  I'll show an example below.  To me they just look "wrong".  Others will disagree, and that's fine.  Aesthetics are personal.  Expectations are personal.  If people don't care one way or another, then sure, they want to buy at the cheapest price.  Some will pay more, some won't.  Always been and always will.

Does machine stitching on leather have to look so ugly? I hope not... 

On fabric machine stitching mostly looks better than handstitching (remember the scene in The Fiddler on the Roof where the tailor receives his sewing machine?), and I wouldn't pay more for made-to-measure trousers just because the sewing machine broke down and they were sewn by hand.

With leather it's different because handstitching is actually functionally better. That's what it makes worth more to me...

 

[Samalan]

3 hours ago, Klara said:

Does machine stitching on leather have to look so ugly? I hope not.

This is machine-stitched I think it looks ok

[Tugadude]

One thing to clarify.  When I posted the example that I did it wasn't because I believe ALL machine stitching looks bad, not at all.  There have been lots of examples posted here that show that it can look good.  To argue otherwise is silly.

Springfield could have chosen a thicker thread and it immediately would have looked better.  Why they didn't, who knows?  I can't believe there's a huge savings in going with thinner thread.  Not when you look at the small amount of thread per article certainly.

What I was trying to show is how machine stitching CAN look when aesthetics aren't a concern.  I can't imagine them looking at that stitching and believing it looks great.  Just can't believe that.

Some buy them for their function and I'm sure don't even notice.  They don't realize there is something better available probably.

So let's not make this a handstitched versus machine debate.  That wasn't my intent.  The advantages of each are well known, well documented and I respect those on both sides.  

[Samalan]

3 hours ago, Tugadude said:

let's not make this a handstitched versus machine debate.

No debate at all I'm just too dam lazy to do all that hand stitching I actually think it's better and I like to think of myself as the guy who would like to do hand stitching and I have all the equipment to do it but then when it comes time to do it I'm on the machine the most hand stitching I do is to close up the end of the machine stitch LOL.

[chuck123wapati]

When i open a can o worms I go fishin!!! man i wanna go fishin! but the water is still to hard.

[Tugadude]

17 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

When i open a can o worms I go fishin!!! man i wanna go fishin! but the water is still to hard.

Chainsaw!

[doubleh]

I say it is whatever floats YOUR boat. Stamping leaves mine sitting very low in the water but that's just me. If you like it go for it.

I am working on a border stamped holster, the first ever for me. I am not too enthused about it as it's been in the works for well over a month now but I did have a respiratory bug to deal with during that time.  Maybe sometime this week, or next,  I'll get back to it.

[Frodo]

Choosing the correct tool for the right spot is my struggle with carving. I am trying to learn on my own and my teacher is an idiot

 This is an embarrassment

 

[sparctek]

@Frodo I was in the same spot you are in a couple of years ago. I started watching Don Gonzales videos and 2-3 years later, I can confidently say my work has improved. I am by no means an expert and I am nowhere near the skill level that some of the people on this forum are at.

But I can confidently say that once you learn what each tool does and learn at least one way to use them, you will improve them if you put the time in to practice. It took me that long because I still work fill time for an IT company. So, my time working with leather is limited. Give this video of Don showing his process and the tools he uses and why a try or 2... it should help get you going in the right direction. I know it did for me.

Hope this helps, and yes it is a 4 video series. If you don't have the same tools a she does (undershot, undercut) you can just use a beveler, angle it and use that to bevel those areas instead.