Reasonable expectations to the life of a leather item

[nstarleather]

So in this post, I commented that "100 Year" guarantees that cover wear and tear aren't sustainable for any company. Basically if you have to replace even a small percentage of the items you sell, you will lose money. Just the economics and math of it all: If you charge 2x your costs and replace for free only 50% of people have to take you up on the guarantee to loose money, especially since your costs will go up as years pass by.

I've been doing this as my full time for the better part of 2 decades and while I love the durability of leather, I don't think a belt or wallet will survive much more than 15-20 years of daily use (less if we're talking "hard use"). Now if you rotate items and use several, sure...you could stretch the lifetime out much longer.

I've got belts I made in high school, but as a leatherworker I have tons of belts.

Anyway what are everyone's thoughts especially y'all who have been doing this forever? What do you think of companies that offer this sort of guarantee?

[fredk]

In Europe/UK companies used to give a 'Life Time' guarantee. This was out-lawed many years ago and a specific length of time must be given and the length of time must be reasonable, a reasonable time any ordinary person might expect, eg, a 5, 10, 15 year guarantee is fine, 50 or 100 years is generally not. My guarantee time is variable, 6 months to 3 years generally

We think we live in a modern 'throw away & replace' society but archaeologists find the people as far back as the stone age, the neolithic, were no different to us, when something was no longer useful or needed repair, throw it away, replace, or if possible re-purpose the item. How do we know this? from finds, of mostly leather goods, found in middens (a waste/garbage dump) and old item now in museum archives. I have several books which have the likes of belt purses, pouched, knife & sword scabbards, shoes & boots et cetera all found in one location in a midden showing this replace or repurpose of leather items

So not even leather goods will last forever, but they'll last a long time if looked after

Also, the quality of the construction and the leather used will make the leather item last a long time. Make it good first time and the only time you'll see that customer again is when they come back to buy another item

If I may share a story incident to show this; in my old medieval history prestation group a few chaps went to Wales for an event. There they did some classes, including 'leather work'. Two of the chaps made sheaths for 'fantasy' style eating knives they had made in the metal working class. The leather used was poor quality, I think it was cheap chrome tan. I remember it was too soft for a sheath and was rough-out on both sides, it didn't smell or taste like leather.  Holes were pierced with some round tool and the sheath folded over and rough hand cut lace used to whip stitch it together. This was supposed to be 'authentic' medieval leather work. Anyway after about 4 or 6 weeks those sheaths were falling apart, some of the pierced holes which were too close to the edge had ripped out, the knife had cut some lace or through the sheath itself. In the meantime one other chap had asked me to make a proper sheath, a copy of a certain viking one,  I made it in veg tan, wet moulded and stamped, sewn with linen thread, a welt et all. As far as I know that sheath is still in use after about 15 or 16 years

A very important thing now, in my opinion, is to put your maker mark, or some other identifiable mark on the items you make. Not too many times, but enough, I've had people bring to me leather items for repair or replacement, usually they politely argue it should be done under its guarantee. As far as I remember, only once did I have to fix an item I made, all the rest were not my responsibility. Another's maker mark was on the item; 'Not mine' I tell the person 'But I bought it from you at this show just last month' 'This show is only on once a year and this mark shows me someone else made it. I don't sell other peoples work. But I can repair it for you for just a few £££'

Not full time at this, but occasional part time. In nearly 23 years of doing this I've only had to repair two of my items, one due to faulty construction and once for accidental damage by the owner. I've repaired far more items made by other so called 'leather workers',  I say it this way as those makers made very simple basic errors that a beginner soon knows not to make, eg using linen thread to hold the sole on a shoe with the thread on the surface of the leather withing the walking area - wore through on the first day of use! or not putting a welt into sheath for a razor sharp knife. . . .

I'm still wearing a belt I made 22 years ago. It now needs some attention, some re-dyeing in worn places, but its still good. My dottir still occasionally uses a brief case bought second-hand at a car-boot sale. Because of an old receipt found in it the case is from at least 1948. The case just needed a cleaning with saddle soap and it was fine - good quality leather, well made & looked after = a long life time of use

too much waffle?

 

[Tugadude]

Not the same industry, but I work in construction chemicals and in my nearly 40 year career I've only been asked to process one warranty claim.  I'm not counting the occasional product failure that resulted from a whoopsie in the plant.  Those are understandable and are handled accordingly.  I'm talking about products made up to standard and put into use.

One company I worked for (a global behemoth in the chemical industry) bragged about their $6 million slush fund set aside for warranty claims.  They rarely had to dip into it, but obviously they were prepared to deal with most any situation that might arise.

Smaller companies don't have the luxury.  But if they are going to offer "extended" warranties, I hope they are planning for how that is going to work in the future.  And accounting for a portion of their margin to be earmarked for it.  In reality, they probably don't.

How many leather companies are even going to be around that long?  Even a 25 year warranty is likely to outlive many if not most makers.  So at what point is it just a marketing gimmick.  

In fact, that's what many manufacturers use warranties as, marketing gimmicks or strategies.  Lot of examples I've seen and been involved with in my career.

And then another thing many are counting on is a forgetful or lazy consumer.  

I'll give an example.  A few years ago, Menard's moved into my area.  They originated, I believe, in Wisconsin and have spread out over the midwest.  They run a quality store and I shop there fairly often.

They announce an 11% rebate on all purchases, pretty much all of the time.  You have to keep your receipt, mail it in with a form and they give you a store credit worth 11% of your purchase, minus taxes of course.

Many, many times I have gone home and either thrown the receipt away or gotten "too busy" to do the required work.  And trust me, I'm not alone.  I don't know the percentage of folks who take advantage of the rebate, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is as few and the 11% rebate itself.

Of course the store COULD just give everyone the rebate on the spot.  So why don't they?  Because it gets people in the store and then they don't follow through with the work, so it ends up being cheap marketing.  Pretty smart, but frustrating at the same time.

And warranties are much the same.  Many don't keep the required documentation.  They might even forget exactly where they got the thing in the first place.  That might not be the case with leatherwork, but the other factors remain.

When I was a kid, Sears was still a thing and Kenmore was king.  At least as far as I was concerned.  Craftsman tools too!  But then Sears began asking if I wanted an extended warranty plan for additional money.  I told them no, I was buying Kenmore because I had good experience with the brand and trusted it to perform.  The mere fact they wanted to sell me a plan made me wonder whether I was making the right decision.  That's the way I roll.  

[nstarleather]

23 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

How many leather companies are even going to be around that long?  Even a 25 year warranty is likely to outlive many if not most makers.  So at what point is it just a marketing gimmick.  

In fact, that's what many manufacturers use warranties as, marketing gimmicks or strategies.  Lot of examples I've seen and been involved with in my career.

And then another thing many are counting on is a forgetful or lazy consumer.  

I'll give an example.  A few years ago, Menard's moved into my area.  They originated, I believe, in Wisconsin and have spread out over the midwest.  They run a quality store and I shop there fairly often.

They announce an 11% rebate on all purchases, pretty much all of the time.  You have to keep your receipt, mail it in with a form and they give you a store credit worth 11% of your purchase, minus taxes of course.

Many, many times I have gone home and either thrown the receipt away or gotten "too busy" to do the required work.  And trust me, I'm not alone.  I don't know the percentage of folks who take advantage of the rebate, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is as few and the 11% rebate itself.

Of course the store COULD just give everyone the rebate on the spot.  So why don't they?  Because it gets people in the store and then they don't follow through with the work, so it ends up being cheap marketing.  Pretty smart, but frustrating at the same time.

You're totally right on all of these points...the brand in the post I'm referring to says "started in 1949" but a quick internet check shows their site started in 2015.  8 years is respectable but not 1949...are they the same owners?  Same type of business (actually they admit they aren't).

The other big company I have a problem with offers a 100 year warranty but if you read it, it covers "defects in workmanship and materials"...if it has a defect you'll notice long before 100 years and most issues after 5-10 will be wear and tear.

 

Customers are lazy and it's true most won't take advantage of a warranty but if you have a span of 100 years...the numbers will add up.

30 minutes ago, fredk said:

In Europe/UK companies used to give a 'Life Time' guarantee. This was out-lawed many years ago and a specific length of time must be given and the length of time must be reasonable, a reasonable time any ordinary person might expect, eg, a 5, 10, 15 year guarantee is fine, 50 or 100 years is generally not. My guarantee time is variable, 6 months to 3 years generally

I'm still wearing a belt I made 22 years ago. It now needs some attention, some re-dyeing in worn places, but its still good. My dottir still occasionally uses a brief case bought second-hand at a car-boot sale. Because of an old receipt found in it the case is from at least 1948. The case just needed a cleaning with saddle soap and it was fine - good quality leather, well made & looked after = a long life time of use

 

Yeah not allowing ones that are likely to false is a good law.  I do agree that leather goods that are made of nice leather will last, especially with proper care but nobody is wearing a belt from 1923 or even 1950...

[fredk]

9 minutes ago, nstarleather said:

Yeah not allowing ones that are likely to false is a good law.  I do agree that leather goods that are made of nice leather will last, especially with proper care but nobody is wearing a belt from 1923 or even 1950...

How about 1805 - 1815, 1912 - 1919, 1938 - 1947 periods?

I knew several, and I mean in the dozens, of re-enactors who sought out genuine military leather belts, pouches, holsters, even saddles from those periods. In their opinion, modern replicas might do but you can't beat the genuine article. In N.I. there is a re-enactment group call 'The Irish Horse'. They turn up for events in any of the three periods depending on what is asked. All their saddles are genuine period items but mostly the harness strapping is modern leather

I also met the chaps from a European based group who did medieval jousting. Several of the chaps were proud to show me their genuine 14th & 15th centuries saddles. I think any guarantee on those would have run out by now   

A Lord I know regularly uses a saddle and harness made in 1812 in Italy for one of his fore-fathers. it is in unbelievable most excellent condition and has very fine stitching

In US terms; think of the saddles, holsters, rifle scabbards from the 19th century still in use

But, I agree, that in modern usage a 100 year guarantee is just a modern marketing ploy. At today's rates of closure how many of those businesses will be around even next year never mind in 20 years. Latest in UK news is that an average of 4500 small businesses are closing down each month. Of course manufacturing businesses are only a small portion of this number, but there goes their guarantee on their products

When I had a side business of repairing old vehicles (antique type ones) I turned away a tool sales man. He wanted to sell me an extended warranty beyond the normal 1 year on the power tools. I told him that if the tool need extra warranty then it was most likely going to need it, ie it would break down. I bought the tools that gave a 3 year warranty and free servicing during that period

[nstarleather]

Yes and like everything use matters...a pair of boots used in construction will last no where near as long as the same pair gets used in the office.  Military gear used in active service vs surplus, I'd guess that reenactors are using surplus from those periods as much as possible not used gear from the war (at least for the most part) and while reenacting  hard use, it's generally not a 24/7 kinda thing.  You can milk a lot of life out of goods you're using on the weekends a few times a year.

[Tugadude]

I think Mike's point about warrantying against "manufacturing defect" is a good one.  Most items with inherent flaws are going to fail pretty quickly.  I'm sure there's exceptions, but a lemon is generally going to show itself right away.

And because of that, it is a lower risk for a manufacturer to offer a warranty against defects.  So long as their QC is up to snuff of course.  The only pitfall might be what a consumer considers a defect versus what the manufacturer thinks.

[nstarleather]

6 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

I think Mike's point about warrantying against "manufacturing defect" is a good one.  Most items with inherent flaws are going to fail pretty quickly.  I'm sure there's exceptions, but a lemon is generally going to show itself right away.

And because of that, it is a lower risk for a manufacturer to offer a warranty against defects.  So long as their QC is up to snuff of course.  The only pitfall might be what a consumer considers a defect versus what the manufacturer thinks.

And for the record, I've never heard of the company in question giving folks a hard time with their guarantee but with what's written the 100 years seems pretty disingenuous. 

[Tugadude]

1 minute ago, nstarleather said:

And for the record, I've never heard of the company in question giving folks a hard time with their guarantee but with what's written the 100 years seems pretty disingenuous. 

I know I'm not going to be useable for 100 years!  My father lived to 89, but sadly mom barely made 66.  

Most companies have no issue taking care of problems when it is clear that they supplied a defective product.  It is just good business practice.  And many will err on the side of good customer service and even cover things that might be questionable.

That happened to me when I wrote a manufacturer concerning their product.  I shared my experience with their product and how I loved it and the way it performed but that one part of it was a problem.  Without boring everyone, a seal in the product tended to fail unless it was cleaned extremely well and allowed to dry, would begin to break down, support mold growth, etc.  They agreed that it could be an issue and mailed me replacement caps.  Guess what brand I'll purchase next time?

I'm not suggesting that every company should behave similarly in every situation, but I do think there are times when it's the right thing to do.  

[nstarleather]

2 hours ago, Tugadude said:

I know I'm not going to be useable for 100 years!  My father lived to 89, but sadly mom barely made 66.  

Most companies have no issue taking care of problems when it is clear that they supplied a defective product.  It is just good business practice.  And many will err on the side of good customer service and even cover things that might be questionable.

That happened to me when I wrote a manufacturer concerning their product.  I shared my experience with their product and how I loved it and the way it performed but that one part of it was a problem.  Without boring everyone, a seal in the product tended to fail unless it was cleaned extremely well and allowed to dry, would begin to break down, support mold growth, etc.  They agreed that it could be an issue and mailed me replacement caps.  Guess what brand I'll purchase next time?

I'm not suggesting that every company should behave similarly in every situation, but I do think there are times when it's the right thing to do.  

Yeah I have a repair guarantee, we’ll fix anything and cover shipping both ways for a year.  After that customer covers shipping.  It’s not in writing but if someone complains about something wearing out and it’s a relatively short time, we make it right.  

[Garyak]

5 hours ago, nstarleather said:

So in this post, I commented that "100 Year" guarantees that cover wear and tear aren't sustainable for any company. Basically if you have to replace even a small percentage of the items you sell, you will lose money. Just the economics and math of it all: If you charge 2x your costs and replace for free only 50% of people have to take you up on the guarantee to loose money, especially since your costs will go up as years pass by.

I've been doing this as my full time for the better part of 2 decades and while I love the durability of leather, I don't think a belt or wallet will survive much more than 15-20 years of daily use (less if we're talking "hard use"). Now if you rotate items and use several, sure...you could stretch the lifetime out much longer.

I've got belts I made in high school, but as a leatherworker I have tons of belts.

Anyway what are everyone's thoughts especially y'all who have been doing this forever? What do you think of companies that offer this sort of guarantee?

Made these for my momma in 1994. About every 2 years I clean them and hit em with extra Virgin olive oil. 94 to now…. Pushing 30 years… I can’t guarantee anything. I don’t know what folks do after they’ve paid and gone. Most folks a return regulars so if they want something done to something they’ve had it’s usually to add something too it. I’ve repaired a whole bunch of stuff others made, and lots of expensive purses and Harley Davidson gear. Mass produced goods never last. With the Harley gear I usually tear it apart and rebuild with solid materials and show it some love… better than new. Folks get more of the stuff I’ve made stolen than damaged. I learned to warn folks, some don’t listen. Purses at the club voids warranty. There’s leather around that 100’s of years old. Olive oil. 

[fredk]

To boil it down; I would expect a manual working man's wallet in daily use to last 5 or 6 years, an office worker's wallet or a woman's wallet in daily use to last at least 10 years. A man's belt to last at least 6 to 8 years. A woman's daily handbag, at least 4 years

When I say 'to last' I mean at the years I think of the items are not falling apart but are showing a lot of wear. That 'Lived & well used' look. The item might welcome some re-dyeing, maybe some stitching repairs, a very little amount of that though

[nstarleather]

1 hour ago, fredk said:

To boil it down; I would expect a manual working man's wallet in daily use to last 5 or 6 years, an office worker's wallet or a woman's wallet in daily use to last at least 10 years. A man's belt to last at least 6 to 8 years. A woman's daily handbag, at least 4 years

When I say 'to last' I mean at the years I think of the items are not falling apart but are showing a lot of wear. That 'Lived & well used' look. The item might welcome some re-dyeing, maybe some stitching repairs, a very little amount of that though

I’d say that’s a pretty decent breakdown of what to expect.

[tsunkasapa]

I guarantee most things I make for life. Exceptions are belts, wallets, dog collars and some horse projects. 

[Handstitched]

One of the very first belts I made 18 years ago , I am still wearing as I type. It shows signs of regular  daily use, the holes are a bit stretched,  but its still  in one piece & holds my  dacks up ...and holds my gut in  , lol   

Thats a good indication of how long stuff should last. The heavier stuff should last a lot longer than that.  Its a bit harder for dog collars  or horse gear , as animals are unpredictable and break stuff a lot. 

HS

[nstarleather]

9 hours ago, tsunkasapa said:

I guarantee most things I make for life. Exceptions are belts, wallets, dog collars and some horse projects. 

Yeah those are some that see the most wear and like everything use changes the lifespan a lot...if you carry a bag every day to an office vs if you carry it only occasionally makes the difference between "I've carried this bag 20 years vs "after 5 years it's looking kinda rough."

[chuck123wapati]

reasonable expectations of a leather product is pretty vague as the wear or abuse they get can vary greatly. A book cover or a pair of work boots? I don't "guarantee" replacement of any of my stuff but i will make it right if its a defect i missed  or  i will repair it if its damaged from use. I usually don't charge for repairs because i just don't get them I guess and there is no real reason to replace leather items when they usually only need re stitched. If the leather is ruined from misuse or failure of the owner to take care of it , its on them.

[tsunkasapa]

3 hours ago, nstarleather said:

Yeah those are some that see the most wear and like everything use changes the lifespan a lot...if you carry a bag every day to an office vs if you carry it only occasionally makes the difference between "I've carried this bag 20 years vs "after 5 years it's looking kinda rough."

I should point out that at 70 years old, the length of my 'guaranteed for life' is getting shorter by the day. 

[HandyDave]

I dont offer a set "warranty" for a given length of time. Because like has allready been said who knows what kind of life the pieces have once they leave my shop. Im not gonna cut my throat to fix or replace something that was just beat the hell out of in a short time. But i do work with my customers to try atleast reach some kind of common ground that works for all parties. Knock on wood so far ive not had a piece of leather come back because of the leatherwork itself. But have had a couple snaps and other hardware pieces fail a few times. And i tell my customers that i buy the best hardware pieces i can but cant be held responsible for failure of parts that i dont make or assemble myself. If a snap or clasp or something goes bad i still usually fix those little things for free with the customer paying for the shipping.  

[nstarleather]

On 5/4/2023 at 7:36 PM, HandyDave said:

I dont offer a set "warranty" for a given length of time. Because like has allready been said who knows what kind of life the pieces have once they leave my shop. Im not gonna cut my throat to fix or replace something that was just beat the hell out of in a short time. But i do work with my customers to try atleast reach some kind of common ground that works for all parties. Knock on wood so far ive not had a piece of leather come back because of the leatherwork itself. But have had a couple snaps and other hardware pieces fail a few times. And i tell my customers that i buy the best hardware pieces i can but cant be held responsible for failure of parts that i dont make or assemble myself. If a snap or clasp or something goes bad i still usually fix those little things for free with the customer paying for the shipping.  

Yeah we pay shipping if it happens in the first year after that customer pays.  We guarantee “zippers, seams and hardware” but not damage or wear and tear.  Occasionally I replace a zipper pull but that’s about it.

[BruceGibson]

I'm not a fan of the "100-year" guarantees, or the "great grandkids will fight over it when you're dead" marketing manure.  I have no idea what the statistics would be these days for an operation to exist that long, but I'd bet it's near 0%.  When I see those, I just pass them by--the only real guarantee with those operations is you'll need tall boots and a shovel at some point.

[fredk]

I must say that in the UK and I think European-wide, ie those countries in and allied to the European Common Trade Markets, any  person or company trading full time or part time as a business selling new or 2nd hand goods within the UK/EU must provide  some form of guarantee *

It might be the very minimum, such as, 'down to the bottom of the lane (50 yards)' as when I once bought a junk car or much longer ones such as  for '10 years guarantee for quality of material, wear & tear excepted' 

As I said before, these improbably long guarantees of 50 or 100 years are not allowed, as is 'life-time', on this, many years ago, some courts ruled 'whose life-time?, the seller's, the buyer's or the good's?' Thus it was ruled that a guarantee had to have a definite time length

* some exceptions do apply

The point of this waffle is to say; any of you, if you were living or selling in the UK/Europe would have to provide a minimal guarantee for your goods

[Klara]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:36 AM, HandyDave said:

But have had a couple snaps and other hardware pieces fail a few times.

I am not making leather gooods for sale, but I have made lots of horse and dog gear, and generally it is the hardware that fails. Even after learning to buy stainless steel items....

[Gosut]

Strictly as a user of leather goods, the wear and tear on leather seems heavily dependent on customer care. I've seen a WWI US Calvary saddle that was heavily used in civilian hands that was in good shape after a century. Our family no longer has the mule harnesses because they deteriorated long ago. The leather on shoes much younger than that gave up the ghost, but most of these were work shoes subjected to hog lots. My grandfather's razor strop is still around, but would be reluctant to strop a blade on it due to its fragility.

Let's say someone offers a century guarantee. After a year they get a claim because someone didn't take proper care of the item. Then what? Say "This is due to your negligence," which is the truth, but is likely to get the complaint going that you don't honor your guarantee? Replace it no questions asked, then end up hemorrhaging time and money with questionable claims?

[nstarleather]

13 hours ago, Gosut said:

Strictly as a user of leather goods, the wear and tear on leather seems heavily dependent on customer care. I've seen a WWI US Calvary saddle that was heavily used in civilian hands that was in good shape after a century. Our family no longer has the mule harnesses because they deteriorated long ago. The leather on shoes much younger than that gave up the ghost, but most of these were work shoes subjected to hog lots. My grandfather's razor strop is still around, but would be reluctant to strop a blade on it due to its fragility.

Let's say someone offers a century guarantee. After a year they get a claim because someone didn't take proper care of the item. Then what? Say "This is due to your negligence," which is the truth, but is likely to get the complaint going that you don't honor your guarantee? Replace it no questions asked, then end up hemorrhaging time and money with questionable claims?

Yeah my reckoning is that those that start the guarantee hope to sell the company or retire long before "the music stops"...even a small percentage of sales over 100 years is nuts unless it's a low-wear/use item.