And they call themselves leather workers

[Dwight]

I won't give the location . . . but I was in two different "leather" shops last week . . . 

Much of it was vinyl glued to fabric to stiffen it . . . 

Leather coats were absolute junk . . . my Pakistan cafe racer jacket I paid a hundred and a half for . . . was three times the quality of that junk . . . and they wanted twice my Pakistan price.

Belts looked like that pressed together and glued stuff from China . . . single layer . . . with buckle . . . no design . . . 26 bucks each and up

I was almost ashamed to mention in that company I work in leather . . . afraid someone would mistake me for them . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight

[fredk]

[chuck123wapati]

its the same in the western stores. all mass produced and very little leather.

[SpruceMoose]

There's certainly always been the cheaper options out there, but man it seems so much more prevalent in so many corners of the market.

Currently Etsy is so flooded with cheap tooled western leather(some actually looks decent and is indeed hand tooled) That is mass produced somewhere, that it shocks me sometimes that people find my shop and pay quadruple the amount. A million shops with the same cheap branded tooled western items, or someone stitches on bad mass produced tooled patches to bad mass produced Chinese bags and charges the same as me....and people pay(either that or ridiculously cheap prices) Blows me away. I gebnerally ignore it, but often do a bit of market research to see whats selling and what customers are saying they like or dislike in reviews, and the amount out there is just wild. 

The worst part to me is that these 'middle man' shop owners take the praise as their own hand skill, and the bulk of the customers think these items are all made by some nice lady in America, when the reality is some mass production style workshop where people are getting paid crap wages to pump out tooled leather. I don't mind the ones that charge cheap in some ways, but Some charge and promote their work as though it's a mom and pop shop run and created by one person and that does always irk me.

 

Oh well, the world keeps spinning, and they'll always be people who seek out and know the difference just by looking.

 

[Handstitched]

5 hours ago, SpruceMoose said:

Oh well, the world keeps spinning, and they'll always be people who seek out and know the difference just by looking.

Yeh, like actual  experienced leather worker  folk like ourselves 

I could have a few words to say about someone calling  himself a ' craftsman' , but I won't. 

HS

[Admin]

It was yard sale week in town. Everyone has "leather" sofas made of plastic. No one believes it is plastic, so I keep my mouth shut. I was looking for bookshelves, of course.

~Johanna

[chrisash]

Come on folks, there are different markets for different wage earners or even some with no earnings, Not from the US, but news shows lots of homeless people living on the street and others in a few million dollar mansions. The clever people market their goods to the selected market, not the whole population, if your clever and make good quality items then your market is defiantly not the low paid sector. Just like LV is selective where they sell and market their brand, and don't waste money hitting people who will never buy their products. Generally people who can afford a product recognise the quality or perceived quality and spend their cash on those items, you can never market the whole community just a section, few comfortably well  off people are looking to buy from Etsy , Ebay or Amazon for quality items

[Handstitched]

4 hours ago, chrisash said:

Come on folks, there are different markets for different wage earners or even some with no earnings,

Granted. But this is about certain individuals selling products as " leather" when its actually vinyl, or some other synthetic material.  There are people   out there getting duped, conned, 'taken advantage of' , or  whatever by people that don't have a conscience .  It could also serve to give the experienced leather workers a bad name that make and sell the genuine product.  I've lost count the amount of people that ' sniff' my belts checking to see if its genuine leather, I have to wonder where they get their sceptcism from?  Perhaps from people that the OP has mentioned. 

In my world, honesty is the best policy  

HS

P.S. Nice to see Johanna make a rare appearance 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Handstitched

[fredk]

A. inform local trading standards offices of your concerns. I'm thinking that most places have such located at, in or near the local town hall

B. Many years ago now, about 15, I was in touch with my TSO;,  In the EU 'Leather' is no longer just the material made from the skins of animals, its just a describer. In the same way 'cloth' can be used for wool, cotton, silk

[chrisash]

"Genuine Leather" is not trademarked as a description anywhere around the world. so no standards apply to the term, so reconstituted leather is ok to call it in law even though it may be made of ground up 3rd layer and mixed with glue, bit to late to sort it out now, so need to clarify what leather you are using to fight it

Edited September 10, 2023 by chrisash

[Cumberland Highpower]

16 hours ago, Dwight said:

I won't give the location . . . but I was in two different "leather" shops last week . . . 

Much of it was vinyl glued to fabric to stiffen it . . . 

Leather coats were absolute junk . . . my Pakistan cafe racer jacket I paid a hundred and a half for . . . was three times the quality of that junk . . . and they wanted twice my Pakistan price.

Belts looked like that pressed together and glued stuff from China . . . single layer . . . with buckle . . . no design . . . 26 bucks each and up

I was almost ashamed to mention in that company I work in leather . . . afraid someone would mistake me for them . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight

I kinda agree but only to a point  I don't know if you're a hobbyist or make a living from working leather? I'd gamble from a $20 retail vinyl "leather" belt the profit margin is probably 10%.     A real shop not only has to buy material and hire extremely expensive labor, but  make machinery payments, payroll (Including the complete battery of payroll taxes, workers comp etc).  Insurance, commercial rent or loan repayments, utilities and local real estate taxes.....When that's all said and done, then Uncle Sam hits you with income tax. 

They might only have $2 in materials up front, but don't let that lead to any conclusions. 

I don't think it's unreasonable really.  $26 vinyl belts do have a market and it's a pretty big one.   Regarding jackets, I'm not sure what to say?  You're a purchaser of a $150 Paki import jacket.  How is an American shop with huge overhead supposed to compete with that?   Would you be willing to pay $350-450 for a comparable one, made in USA?   Maybe we already have an answer?    Not trying to be combative, just realistic here.

Pakistani make what? $200 a month?  $6 a day?  They couldstart the day sitting on the ground and stitch and jacket together with a needle by hand and have it done by quitting time.  The labor cost assembling even by hand would be $6.   $6 might cover someone's cigarette break in Ohio?

Edited September 10, 2023 by Cumberland Highpower

[Handstitched]

Popcorn on stand-by 

HS

[chuck123wapati]

4 minutes ago, Handstitched said:

Popcorn on stand-by 

HS

lol at least its not me this time.

[Klara]

4 hours ago, fredk said:

...

B. Many years ago now, about 15, I was in touch with my TSO;,  In the EU 'Leather' is no longer just the material made from the skins of animals, its just a describer. In the same way 'cloth' can be used for wool, cotton, silk

I've just looked up the legal definition of leather (cuir) in France,  and it is "tanned animal skin". French trade standards recognise leather and split leather, with or without coating. Terms like simili cuir, faux cuir are forbidden if it's Vinyl, it must be called vinyl (assuming that's a valid term, I'm too tired to now look up legal definitions of man-made materials). The species that was skinned needs to be identified as well. 

Sounds pretty good, but there's two problems: Footwear is excluded from this legislation and private sellers don't know or don't care. I wanted to buy a second hand leather sofa, but I gave up because just as in Johanna's yard sale most ads were for plastic ones.

 

[Dwight]

3 hours ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

I kinda agree but only to a point  I don't know if you're a hobbyist or make a living from working leather? I'd gamble from a $20 retail vinyl "leather" belt the profit margin is probably 10%.     A real shop not only has to buy material and hire extremely expensive labor, but  make machinery payments, payroll (Including the complete battery of payroll taxes, workers comp etc).  Insurance, commercial rent or loan repayments, utilities and local real estate taxes.....When that's all said and done, then Uncle Sam hits you with income tax. 

They might only have $2 in materials up front, but don't let that lead to any conclusions. 

I don't think it's unreasonable really.  $26 vinyl belts do have a market and it's a pretty big one.   Regarding jackets, I'm not sure what to say?  You're a purchaser of a $150 Paki import jacket.  How is an American shop with huge overhead supposed to compete with that?   Would you be willing to pay $350-450 for a comparable one, made in USA?   Maybe we already have an answer?    Not trying to be combative, just realistic here.

Pakistani make what? $200 a month?  $6 a day?  They couldstart the day sitting on the ground and stitch and jacket together with a needle by hand and have it done by quitting time.  The labor cost assembling even by hand would be $6.   $6 might cover someone's cigarette break in Ohio?

No argument with much of what you said . . . just one to mention . . . I bought the jacket from Pakistan . . . simply because it was the only place I could find that had the style jacket I wanted . . . AND . . . would make the alterations I wanted.  I happen to be one of those long legged, long armed hillbillys that's hard to fit in anything mass produced.

I simply could not find one here in the states . . . at any price point.  So in that case it is you do what ya gotta do to get what you want.

My main gripe was the advertisement of "leather goods" in the stores I visited . . . and a huge bunch of it was vinyl/cloth leather look alike.  The leather jackets they were offering did not have an origin tag . . . but they were sloppy made . . . positively ugly . . . and there was no one there to say "how can we get you what you want" . . . it was more "thats what we got . . . buy it or leave" . . . 

The belts were imitation hand made . . . I would not have worn one to a dog fight . . . and like I said . . . there were many of the ones made from glued and pressed leather remnants . . . started at 26 bucks and they went up from there.

I think they were trying to interest the "wanna be" cowboy / cowgirl crowd . . . as some of them were just audacious in their design . . . 

And I am . . . halfway between a hobbyist and making a living . . . it's a part time job where I make custom holsters, belts, knife sheaths, ax sheaths, and other stuff.  I've repaired saddles, made halters, made chinks and chaps,  even made a USMC style hat from leather.  It is a one man operation . . . but if I had started this a number of years back  . . . I can see myself with 2 or 3 or 4 trusted employees . . . earning a living with leather . . . together.  And you are totally correct in the description you gave of that gambit . . . tough sledding for sure.

But in the end . . . big company or small . . . one man or many . . . giving the customer a product that could possibly go down to his grandchildren . . .because it was well designed . . .. well made . . . etc. . . . that's my goal in leatherwork.  

Two holsters went out of here Saturday . . . I have no doubt that at least children will inherit them . . . and they could easily be passed on to the grandchildren.  Another one and a belt to match will go out sometime this week . . . with the same perceived destination.

May God bless,

Dwight

 

 

 

 

[SpruceMoose]

I should add to what i previously said, i have nothing against mass production or folks who run larger leather businesses. I more have an issue with the lying that is coming along with it in many instances. Something something 'usa' darling western leather resellers claiming they are the individual artists, local handmade small mom and pop business. You're a reseller, stand by it no problem, don't lie.

[SUP]

The 'high end' things.. like handbags are just as bad. The bags feel so plasticky and have logo prints on them, so many of them. And colors and patterns which also feel plasticky. Yet many say they are leather. What type of leather, the quality  is anybody's guess. Yet they charge thousands for them. I understand all that was said about the expenses involved in producing them in the West and while there are some brands,  whose prices are high but reasonable, others are not. No bag is worth the thousands they charge. Yet, people pay for the brand and then, most often, they advertise that brand for free, with the logo all over that bag! LOL. Smart marketing on the part of those companies I must say. The companies get paid for the bags and get free advertising as well.

Saffiano, the very popular leather used in high end goods is an example of the plasticky feel of the leathers. I got some and am wondering what to do with it. 

[Handstitched]

11 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

lol at least its not me this time.

I have some mixed  nuts if you like them  lol  

[chrisash]

9 hours ago, SUP said:

The 'high end' things.. like handbags are just as bad. The bags feel so plasticky and have logo prints on them, so many of them. And colors and patterns which also feel plasticky. Yet many say they are leather. What type of leather, the quality  is anybody's guess. Yet they charge thousands for them. I understand all that was said about the expenses involved in producing them in the West and while there are some brands,  whose prices are high but reasonable, others are not. No bag is worth the thousands they charge. Yet, people pay for the brand and then, most often, they advertise that brand for free, with the logo all over that bag! LOL. Smart marketing on the part of those companies I must say. The companies get paid for the bags and get free advertising as well.

Saffiano, the very popular leather used in high end goods is an example of the plasticky feel of the leathers. I got some and am wondering what to do with it. 

These top end bags etc are made exceedingly well, regardless of the material, its the look and brand people buy, agree no bag is worth that amount of money , but women buy to impress other women with the fact they can afford it. just like men by top end sports cars and sell them after a few years with maybe a couple of thousand miles on the clock, for show not use. 

[SUP]

@chrisash, I know. It is always 'keeping up with the Jones'. Silly really.  And sure, most are well made, machine made, remember, but still plasticky and give such a skewed view of what leather is, to the general public.  If those materials use so much plastic, might as well call them 'vegan' leathers and use actual vegan leathers, which are just synthetic material anyway, what we used to call Rexene. Just because the companies selling those leathers say there is good leather under there somewhere, can one trust them? 

My issue is, there are plenty of handmade leather items out there that are very well made as well. Go to any thrift store or consignment store and you will find plenty. The more expensive ones are the branded ones of course, but check in the cheaper sections and you find beautifully made, good leather items - bags, belts, even some footwear -  going for a song because they do not have  brand names attached. Lovely leather, great workmanship but kept alongside plain, cheap plastics, not even the reasonably well made 'vegan' leather ones.  That is what really gets to me. Beautiful work by craftsmen which are ignored and often, not even recognized. See, pay less for handmade items than for those branded items I can understand, not even recognizing them as something good but equating them to cheap, plastic, is bothersome to me.

 

[Cumberland Highpower]

23 hours ago, fredk said:

A. inform local trading standards offices of your concerns. I'm thinking that most places have such located at, in or near the local town hall

B. Many years ago now, about 15, I was in touch with my TSO;,  In the EU 'Leather' is no longer just the material made from the skins of animals, its just a describer. In the same way 'cloth' can be used for wool, cotton, silk

Perhaps so.  Only experience I have with buying leather goods from the EU was in 2011 during the recession.   I ordered a pair of new  "Made in EU" "genuine leather" couches sight unseen from a local discount furniture outlet.  Paid $650 a piece and was expecting not all that much.  When they came in, the packing was marked Made in Italy everywhere, and they were 100% leather.  Napoli I believe.  Not a scrap of vinyl to be found, even on the backs.  A great buy and I still have them.

[Handstitched]

Geez, I'm onto my second box    

Its now becoming ' hand made vs mass produced' 

HS

[Cumberland Highpower]

18 hours ago, Dwight said:

No argument with much of what you said . . . just one to mention . . . I bought the jacket from Pakistan . . . simply because it was the only place I could find that had the style jacket I wanted . . . AND . . . would make the alterations I wanted.  I happen to be one of those long legged, long armed hillbillys that's hard to fit in anything mass produced.

I simply could not find one here in the states . . . at any price point.  So in that case it is you do what ya gotta do to get what you want.

My main gripe was the advertisement of "leather goods" in the stores I visited . . . and a huge bunch of it was vinyl/cloth leather look alike.  The leather jackets they were offering did not have an origin tag . . . but they were sloppy made . . . positively ugly . . . and there was no one there to say "how can we get you what you want" . . . it was more "thats what we got . . . buy it or leave" . . . 

The belts were imitation hand made . . . I would not have worn one to a dog fight . . . and like I said . . . there were many of the ones made from glued and pressed leather remnants . . . started at 26 bucks and they went up from there.

I think they were trying to interest the "wanna be" cowboy / cowgirl crowd . . . as some of them were just audacious in their design . . . 

And I am . . . halfway between a hobbyist and making a living . . . it's a part time job where I make custom holsters, belts, knife sheaths, ax sheaths, and other stuff.  I've repaired saddles, made halters, made chinks and chaps,  even made a USMC style hat from leather.  It is a one man operation . . . but if I had started this a number of years back  . . . I can see myself with 2 or 3 or 4 trusted employees . . . earning a living with leather . . . together.  And you are totally correct in the description you gave of that gambit . . . tough sledding for sure.

But in the end . . . big company or small . . . one man or many . . . giving the customer a product that could possibly go down to his grandchildren . . .because it was well designed . . .. well made . . . etc. . . . that's my goal in leatherwork.  

Two holsters went out of here Saturday . . . I have no doubt that at least children will inherit them . . . and they could easily be passed on to the grandchildren.  Another one and a belt to match will go out sometime this week . . . with the same perceived destination.

May God bless,

Dwight

 

 

 

 

I have no doubt you do good work. The holster in your profile photo looks well thought out and made.   It is possible to make a living from working leather although I'd advise against it.  It's what I've done for 15 years and I've thought allot about switching gears in life.  I work as a "subcontractor" of sorts for a couple big names and make my own lines of goods that I mostly rebrand.  I mostly come on here to discuss machines and ask for input, thoughts, etc.  I almost never talk about the actual items we make, it's a mix of paranoia and reluctance-lol.   

[SUP]

@Handstitched . 

[chuck123wapati]

6 hours ago, Handstitched said:

Geez, I'm onto my second box    

Its now becoming ' hand made vs mass produced' 

HS

baked garbanzo beans!!! 

drain em, pat dry, coat with olive oil add your favorite spices and bake on a cookie sheet until crunchy. I like creole seasoning on mine.