Buying a used first industrial machine

[Zeekar]

Hi all, 

New poster on this forum. Found it referenced a fair bit when researching sewing machines so I decided to ask your collective wisdom for help. Its not exactly leatherworking related but I still hope you will help out.

I'm a hobby sewist. Generally tend to make backpacks, tool holders and other utility trinkets.  Materials generally used are nylon/polyester 400D-1000D weights, webbing and foam for padding. Most of the time my domestic sewing machine is limiting when I try to sew trough the foam since the foot clearance is too low or when I pile up the layers (6 layers of nylon (base material + lining) or 2-3 layers of webbing). Not to mention shifting of layers with a bottom feed machine. The other problem is the thread. Tex 50 is currently the maximum I managed to get working with this machine and getting consistent results. The machine already seemed to be strugling with it.  I would like to upgrade to bonded nylon 69 or 92 thread. Doubt I will have to go any higher for my application. I would like to also keep an option to do any light leatherworking in the future (backpacks from leather just look cool and Im looking in doing some tool belts for friends). 

I'm looking at buying a used machine in the ~ 500€ range. I'm looking at flatbed machines at the moment since cylinder arms are very rare around here and usually way out of my budget. I can handle my way around a machine with a service manual so I'm not too afraid of adjusting a thing or two if needs be. 

I have narrowed down my search to 3 machines:

DURKOPP ADLER 167:

It comes with a table a shorther one which is actually a plus since i dont have that much room in my apartment. Also has a single phase servo motor of unknown power. The machine from the looks of facebook pictures looks in decent condition and has been used to produce leather goods recently. I havent had the chance to contact the seller for any further details.

What worries me is the cost of extras example feet and spare parts. Quick googling has shown the parts being quite expensive so any possible repairs would be very expensive even in a diy setting. I've also found that the timing belt change can be a big problem. Its also almost a 2h drive away from where I live otherwise I would have probably already go and check it out.

 

Second machine is a Singer 211G666:

Currently asking price is 300€. Comes with a 3 phase clutch motor so that would need changing to a servo. Current owner doesnt know any recent history of the machine since he took it as part of compensation. From what I've read its a reliable machine that is relatively ok to mantain and the parts are plentiful. It seems like it would be a good deal if I can haggle down the price a bit. A 500W servo runs for about 180-200€ round here. The location is also on the way to work so its easy for me to go and check it out.

 

Third option is a Pfaff of unknown type.

The seller will let me know on Monday what is the exact type (it seems like a 1245 but i'm really not sure since I've only saw them trough pictures):

Asking price 250€ and as the singer it also comes with a 3 phase clutch motor. Same caveats apply as with the singer and the additional problem of having expensive parts which arent readily available. But its a Pfaff which is synonim with quality around here.

 

All three machines seem to be more than up to the task of what I will require of them or did I miss anything obvious? Like any of the machines being too heavy duty to actually be adjust to such low weight thread that I plan on using?

When I go to check them out what should I check on them? This would be my first industrial so I'm kinda lost here. I'm planning on taking some thread and material to try them out but what are the parts that are prone to wearing out on such machines? 

I'm personally leaning towards either the Singer or the Adler. Adler because its pretty much a full package and Singer because its cheaper to maintain and get accessories.  

 

Thank you in advance for all your help. 

 

[GerryR]

I can't comment on the individual machines, but can make a suggestion concerning the 3-phase clutch motors.  There are a multitude of variable frequency drives (VFD) that run from single phase input power to produce 3-phase motor output power and are relatively inexpensive (<$100.00USD).  You can use one of these to get variable speed from the existing clutch motor by simply engaging the clutch permanently and use the VFD to vary the speed.  I just built a system and purchased a TIG welder foot pedal, which has a potentiometer inside (for $20.00 USD), to vary the VFD output to the motor.  The VFD I bought on Ebay for $30.00 and is good for up to a 1hp motor.  So for $50.00 or so, you could drive the existing 3-phase clutch motors and not have to spend money for a servo drive and whatever changes would be required to mount the new servo system.  Just an option that could possibly save time and money.

[Zeekar]

Thats definitly an option but the main issue I have with clutch motors is the permanent on status and the noise that comes with that. 

 

But thank you for the tig welder foot pedal tip. Was just searching for something similar for a different project and this seems like it will fit the bill.

[dikman]

As long as it sews/runs ok the Singer would probably be your best bet, in my opinion. They are well built and parts (feet etc) should be cheap. The motor setup on it looks like it may be variable speed rather than a clutch motor, if so you could use a VFD, as Gerry suggests, to run on single phase. Just set the VFD to a fixed speed and use the variable speed in the motor control unit - I think it should work.

Otherwise just buy a servo.

Edited November 10, 2023 by dikman

[GerryR]

11 minutes ago, Zeekar said:

Thats definitly an option but the main issue I have with clutch motors is the permanent on status and the noise that comes with that. 

 

But thank you for the tig welder foot pedal tip. Was just searching for something similar for a different project and this seems like it will fit the bill.

The idea of using the VFD is the clutch motor will no longer be on all the time but will be under control of the VFD via the foot pedal.  You just lock the clutch on and when you use the foot pedal the motor will run  at the speed based upon the position of the foot pedal.

[Zeekar]

17 hours ago, dikman said:

As long as it sews/runs ok the Singer would probably be your best bet, in my opinion. They are well built and parts (feet etc) should be cheap. The motor setup on it looks like it may be variable speed rather than a clutch motor, if so you could use a VFD, as Gerry suggests, to run on single phase. Just set the VFD to a fixed speed and use the variable speed in the motor control unit - I think it should work.

Otherwise just buy a servo.

Tnx!

Yes from the additional pics Ive gotten it seems its equiped with an efka variostop. Ive attached the pictures i got. 

 

Could you (or anyone) also give me some advice what should I check on the machine before I purchase it.

 

17 hours ago, GerryR said:

The idea of using the VFD is the clutch motor will no longer be on all the time but will be under control of the VFD via the foot pedal.  You just lock the clutch on and when you use the foot pedal the motor will run  at the speed based upon the position of the foot pedal.

That makes a lot more sense

 

[CowboyBob]

The Singer 211 has a smaller handwheel making it harder to slow down than the other 2 & do to the design of it you can't install a larger pulley on it,for this reason & the fact that a few of the screws for it aren't available anymore would steer me towards one of the others.They both have larger bobbins too.The 167 should have a rubber belt in it,if it's cloth don't buy it.

[Zeekar]

6 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

The Singer 211 has a smaller handwheel making it harder to slow down than the other 2 & do to the design of it you can't install a larger pulley on it,for this reason & the fact that a few of the screws for it aren't available anymore would steer me towards one of the others.They both have larger bobbins too.The 167 should have a rubber belt in it,if it's cloth don't buy it.

The seller sent me a picture of the inside. The belt looks like it's rubber, but it also looks quite worn. Would this need replacing?

[Constabulary]

yeah, looks, cracked and IMO it needs to be replaced. Its doable but not easy. You find some hints here:

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Constabulary

[Constabulary]

I would still go with the Singer. I agree with cowboyBob regarding the hand wheel on the 211 (I tried this on my 212 and I had no success) but if you want to change the motor and install a new servo motor you could add a speed reducer to slow down the sewing speed and add more torque.

I would check the machines if they have matching forward and reverse stitch length. I know there is a procedure how to adjust F+R stitch length for the Singer 211 and the Adler 167 but I think I have not read anywhere how to do this on a Pfaff 1245 (not saying it is not possible).

If the stitch length matters for your projects I think the Adler and the Pfaff have max 6mm and the Singer 5mm.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Constabulary

[Zeekar]

Yeah Im taiking a look at the singer on tuesday and if thats a dud ill go check out the adler. The timing belt change looks like its a bit of a pain but not impossible.

Ill check that the forward and reverse match. The stich length of 5 mm is plenty. 

If you have any more advice what to check on the Singer I'm open to advice.

Any case thank you all for all the help. Its very much appreciated

Edited November 12, 2023 by Zeekar

[Wizcrafts]

I own a 211g156. I installed a servo motor with a small pulley. At the lowest usable motor speed, it runs at about 2 stitches per second. Because the machine pulley is so small it lacks the punching power of my Singer 111. So, I turn up the motor speed knob to punch through the work. This leads to the machine taking off when my foot isn't completely steady on the pedal. I only bought the machine for its reverse lever and due to the shutdowns of 2020, where our main machines were locked inside the commercial building hosting our business. If I had it do do over, I would not buy another 211 machine. It is designed for high speed upholstery, or banners, or tarps, not veg-tan leather. It really needs a reducer to get slow speed with punching power. And, it only has a G size (1x) bobbin. I also find the harp space limiting when sewing leather jackets.

[Quade]

Quote

If I had it do do over, I would not buy another 211 machine. It is designed for high speed upholstery, or banners, or tarps, not veg-tan leather. It really needs a reducer to get slow speed with punching power. And, it only has a G size (1x) bobbin. I also find the harp space limiting when sewing leather jackets.

I sort of feel the same about my 211.   It works but it's old and I hate how you set the stitch length using the hand wheel.   On the other hand it's a tank of a machine.   The modern equivalent is probably the Juki 1508.  Mine has the larger bobbin.  The 211 is an old finicky design. I don't think I ever got my forward and reverse direction matched up.  The reverse lever is clunky and requires more effort than a modern machine too. 

I'd probably avoid the machine  with the cracked belt. It's a bit of a pain replacing the belt assuming you can get one. The hand wheel has to come off and you then fish the belt around the shaft and then down. 

I don't regret messing with my old machines like the 211 but,  I have two newish Juki's I use now. One I got for free.   I can get parts for both and they just work.   

[Constabulary]

Singer 211 also came with large hooks depending on the subclass. I think the 666 subclass is a large hook machine.

[Zeekar]

According to the manual I found online the 666 class has the smaller bobbin. 466/766 are the variants with the larger bobbin.

Im not completley sold on either machine. Im not a great sewist and I like to do things well so I would prefer low speed control. If thats possible with just a servo upgrade on the singer Id be happy and done. I dont think I need the punching power to go trough stacks of veg tan leather (nylon / polyester should be easier to pierce even with the amount of layers im working with). 

The adler really suffers from expensive parts. The belt is 50€ shipped and each additional foot is between 30-50€ which also adds up (zipper feet are a must). Still from reviews it seems like a more quality machine which would serve me well if I get it serviced or I service it. I'll call the local mechanic and see what he thinks about the repair.

 

I did think about buying a new machine but the offers here seem quite poor. 

Linked machine is available for 1100€. But I cant find any reviews or experiences regarding that brand or exact machine. Paying that much money for a unproven clone is a bit much in my book.

https://www.zoje-europe.com/zoje-zj0628-set-lockstitch-machine-for-upholstery-and-leather-unison-feed-with-zoje-servo-motor-complete-machine/item/1044149

[dikman]

Replacing the Singer motor with a servo/speed reducer setup would give you all the control you'll need, and I suspect you could sell the working Efka unit to help offset the cost (maybe you can beat them down a bit due to it being 3-phase and requiring additional cost to get it running ). When you try the Singer run it fast and slow and as long as it doesn't make any funny knocking/clanking noises you should be ok.

[Zeekar]

I've recieved the info about the Pfaff and just to be sure I'm not ignoring a good machine Id ask a couple of more questions. Here is the plate:

 

If I'm reading this correctly the type is 1245 - 706/07. I havent found anything referecing to this exact model except that it uses needle system 134-35. When ever I try to find needle range it mentions models A, B, B/C, C  or D with the latter three being 1245 and the first two 245. 1245 seems to be for needle sizes 110-140 or higher. 

So what I'm trying to figure out if any one has the experience with this type. Can it be used with needles size 14 (90 metric) and thread 45 (tkt 60) (and up ofcourse) or is it too heavy duty? 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Zeekar

[CowboyBob]

23 minutes ago, Zeekar said:

I've recieved the info about the Pfaff and just to be sure I'm not ignoring a good machine Id ask a couple of more questions. Here is the plate:

 

If I'm reading this correctly the type is 1245 - 706/07. I havent found anything referecing to this exact model except that it uses needle system 134-35. When ever I try to find needle range it mentions models A, B, B/C, C  or D with the latter three being 1245 and the first two 245. 1245 seems to be for needle sizes 110-140 or higher. 

So what I'm trying to figure out if any one has the experience with this type. Can it be used with needles size 14 (90 metric) and thread 45 (tkt 60) (and up ofcourse) or is it too heavy duty? 

Yes,you shouldn't have any problems with #14 needles & 46 thread,if you do come back here & we'll help you fix it.LOL!

[kgg]

1 hour ago, Zeekar said:

Can it be used with needles size 14 (90 metric) and thread 45 (tkt 60) (and up ofcourse) or is it too heavy duty? 

From the info I have see it is rated for system 134-135 needles in the range 110 - 140 ( #18 to # 22). That to me indicates it can handle thread V69 (40) to a max of V138 (20) in thin material. I did own an old casing PFAFF 1245 for a very, very short period of time a couple of years ago and it was a disappointment. Also it did have a small bobbin.

There is a couple photo's of the machine after I overhauled it and it's name plate.

kgg

Edited November 13, 2023 by kgg

[Zeekar]

6 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

Yes,you shouldn't have any problems with #14 needles & 46 thread,if you do come back here & we'll help you fix it.LOL!

Tnx for the offer Ill take you up on it if I'll need it 

5 hours ago, kgg said:

From the info I have see it is rated for system 134-135 needles in the range 110 - 140 ( #18 to # 22). That to me indicates it can handle thread V69 (40) to a max of V138 (20) in thin material. I did own an old casing PFAFF 1245 for a very, very short period of time a couple of years ago and it was a disappointment. Also it did have a small bobbin.

There is a couple photo's of the machine after I overhauled it and it's name plate.

kgg

What dissapointed you about it? Just the small bobbin?

P.S.

Your machine does look nice after the overhaul

[kgg]

1 hour ago, Zeekar said:

What dissapointed you about it?

Just my experience but overall it was just too temperamental for my liking and seemed like it always needed something readjusted from the simple things like top and bobbin tension too set screws in the bobbin drive shaft / gears backing off issues. It might have been just that particular machine, the amount of abuse it got before I bought it, lack of maintenance or that I was asking it to do to much. Then add to the mechanical problems that diaper brown color.

kgg

[Zeekar]

Tnx. Ill take it in consideration. 

 

Just to give something back. I've been researching the adler 167 timing belt change and found this video. At 5 min mark it explains the bearing is glued inside and he loosens it with hot air from the inside. Hope it helps anyone.

 

[nejcek74]

I own a Pfaff 1245, old casting, and am very positive about it. First a disclaimer, I am a hobbyist and I make projects, not products, so my experience is limited.
I have owned the Pfaff 1245 for half a year and it is my first industrial sewing machine for heavier material after the Pfaff 138 and Bernina 217, both zigzag machines for light material. I learned most of what I know reading this forum, or at least it was the starting point.
Why did I choose it? Mainly because of the second-hand market where I live in Switzerland. In short, Singers are rare and Adlers, like older Pfaffs, have a certain cult status and are illogically expensive, going up to €2,000, whiled at the same time sellers don't even know what exact model they have. The Pfaff 1245 seems to be underrated, I guess it must have been the main machine in the automotive/upholstery industry at some point when it was still present in Central Europe.
So far the 1245 has worked without a hitch and here is what I like about it:
- You can find comprehensive instructions on how to time it. I have learnt the skills on it and it has given me the confidence to tackle the other two machines. It is very helpful that these are the original Pfaff instructions and not the various bits of advice you can pick up here and there on the web without knowing who to trust.
- As this model is still in production, it is easy to get spare parts, especially from the aftermarket. Unlike the Bernina 217, but also the older Pfaff 138, where finding the right screw can sometimes take days and be expensive.
- I find it quite robust, to be honest I'm still in the testing phase, trying different needles and threads without going to extremes (Tex 40 - 90) and I haven't encountered any major problems yet.
My limited advice is to check the availability of documentation, spare parts and especially needles and presser feet. As you are in the EU you should contract what is available there. Sometimes it is really hard to find the right supplier so that postage is not prohibitive.
 

[Zeekar]

Yeah the singer was a dead end.

Broken lifter lever so to even thread the machine I had to use the knee lift. Bobbin winder was barely functional and would need replacing. A lot of play in the needle bar and apparently it was setup with a different needle system than the 135×17, the needle was a lot shorter than the ones I bought and brought with me and the hook and needle were out of time completely with my needle. Hook also seemed in bad state and the latch for holding in the bobbin housing was broken so I had to use tweezers to even unlatch it. Motor was also behaving wierdly. Sometimes after turning on it started running the machine without any input. But thats probably solved via pedal linkage adjustment. All in all I dont have the patience and probably the knowledge to fix it at this point of time.  

Ill go take a look at the pfaff next when I arrange a meeting with the seller.

 

I got a quote for the Adler repair. 200€ + part cost. jikes. If I go with that one the repair will be a DIY job.

[Quade]

Quote

. At 5 min mark it explains the bearing is glued inside and he loosens it with hot air from the inside. Hope it helps anyone.

On my 211 I had to rig up a puller. The hand-wheel bearing isn't glued in but it acted like an interference fit. It got tighter the deeper it went.  I made an aluminum plug to give me something to push on that didn't bugger up the threads.  Sometimes the old oil acts like glue too.