Using a 211G156....properly.....

[rac1812]

Now that I have cleaned it, adjusted the timing and installed a reduction (home made) belt device and added a variable speed motor from Toledo I am actually using the beast.  It is very slow unless I stomp it but that is what I wanted.  All of the above was done with forum members advice so now I need "operating help"

I am in the process of making curtains...... not for the kitchen... side curtains for a 1940 army Chev....... using very heavy Olive Drab Canvass.  I made a pattern using flipchart paper with 1 inch squares and taking measurements from an original side curtain made in 1940...... can't use the original has it is now 2 inches too narrow and 1 inch too short..... well it shrank over the last 84 years.   All the stitching is fairly simple straight line using a very coarse cotton thread........ my goal is to copy it as accurately as possible both for size and visual appearance..... so I have modern cotton canvass around 16 ounces, and various thread size in beige, to mimick cotton and  transparent vinyl to replace the original totally degrade Monsanto early plastic.

 

I have completed my first prototype with # 69 black nylon bonded thread using a Number 14 needle at 8 thread per inch....... did the needle thread trick until It moved freely in the fall test......  results is a fairtly good looking curtain that fits the side opening.  My next step is to do another one using the heavier beige bonded nylon at the lowest setting of 5 stitches per inch.......

Now I need help....... my largest needle currently in stock is number 21 and the 207 bonded nylon is too big for my needles..... and in fitting the newly wound bobbins I noticed that there seems to be a clearance issue around the bobbins many hooks and crevices........   have I exceeded the thread size limits of my machine???  thread is a very tight fit on the 21 weedle size I have and does not seem to loop over the bobbin when the hook turns over........  I intend to respect the limitations size if that is the issue...... or is there a way around this????

My next attempt was to use a 138s bonded nylon in Beige with a number 20 needle........ well I expected that the "tension" woold need to be adjusted....and was not disappointed..... first test was a typical bird nest under..... increases the tension until I could sow but the bobbin thread is lying flat on the underside and the top thread very visible sticking out of the canvass......... pretty well maxed the tension adjustment screw and now it is almost acceptable but the top thread is still being pulled to the bottom.........  what do I do next???     technical question.... the tension mechanism is a two screw./ disc arrangement....... and I have been limiting my tension adjustment to the top most screw..... is there anything else that controls the tension that I am overlooking....... I have not touched the bobbin tension screw on the bobbin holder as the bobbin thread does not seem to be causing the issue....... or am I wrong and the tension needs to be balanced somehow???

Otherwise the machine works nice and handles up to 7 thickness of folded canvass when doing corners at a steady clunk-clunk-clunk with plenty of torque.

Am I possibly using the wrong kind of thread???    I will be using my leather triangular needles when doing the vinyl.

Any help and / or suggestions greatly appreciated.

My next project will be attaching leather straps to the truck cargo box canvass....single layer of harness leather to canvass with a stress patch/ piece of 9 ounce leather on the back side for greater load bearing.  For this I will be fabricating a temporary large "L" shaped table made of two 4x8 sheet of plywood with me sitting in the crease.........   again tread and needle size will be an issue.

Thanks for your help.

Bob C.

 

 

 

 

 

[kgg]

38 minutes ago, rac1812 said:

I have completed my first prototype with # 69 black nylon bonded thread using a Number 14 needle at 8 thread per inch......

You need to look at this thread chart to needle size ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html )

V69 use #16 or #18

V138 use #22 or #23

V207 use #24

The Singer 211G156 can handle a #22 needle so it can do up to V138. When sewing in fabric use 135 x 17 needles for the leather straps probably best to use 135 x 16 needles.

kgg

 

 

Singer_211G155,_211G156_Service_Manual-1.pdf

[Northmount]

@rac1812 Moved your post to leather sewing machines.

If your material is too thin and the thread is too thick, you can't hide the knots in the material regardless of what you do with your tension settings.

[kgg]

58 minutes ago, Northmount said:

If your material is too thin and the thread is too thick, you can't hide the knots in the material regardless of what you do with your tension settings.

Excellent point.

kgg

[rac1812]

211G dead in the water,,,,,   I tried the largest needle #21 with the 138 bonded nylon thread..... the machine does two stitches and the thread jams under the feed plate and is strong enough to stall the machine and cause the belt to slip.

My detective work as shown the same issue I suspected yesterday....... the 138 is tooooo big.......let alone the 207 I have.

Now Wizard who has a 211G will understand, I hope, what I will attempt to describe........  there is a plate held by two screws that fits over the dogs that move the material..... that plate has a small slot underneath that holds the 1/8 protruding tang from the hook bobbin holder and keeps it stationary.  During the looping of the thread over the bobbin the 138 thread has to slide in the limited space/clearance of the tang and the slot in the top plate..... mine gets hung up and does fancy birdnest....... the stitching knot never gets completed.....and jams.

 

I have tried raising the top plate by inserting a small strip of the canvass (at both ends) I am using as a shim thereby slightly raising the top plate to give clearance for the thread.....  did not work.......

The dog has been replaced with a new one with good teeth.

All my test are done with two  layers of heavy canvass....thick enough to hide the large thread.

Is it feasible to carefully hone the clearance on the plate with the inset for the tang to allow larger thread or am I butchering the machine....... could buy a new top plate to try the honing approach

Am I going to be limited to using thread size under 120???????

I have not tried  any more adjustment on the tension as I can't sow..........

Fall back plan for now is to use T70 Olive drab thread bonded nylon and play with the tension to match the thread size....

 

[rac1812]

UPdate...... after some fiddling I have the 211G set up for T70 bonded nylon.......... just needed to readjust the tension.......

 

BUT....... my goal is to be able to use the#138 beige thread and possibly my 207 Beige to reproduce the old heavy cotton sewing of the 1940s.........

Do I need to shop for a heavier machine???????

 

[kgg]

1 hour ago, rac1812 said:

Do I need to shop for a heavier machine???????

My thought is that's probably a good idea.

kgg

[dikman]

It would certainly be easier if you had a machine designed to handle #207 thread. Most upholstery-class machines are, in general, designed to handle #69 although some can use #138. Anything above that is problematic. And it sounds like you WILL need a heavier-duty machine for your next stage - or hand-stitch it!

You mention that thread is slipping between the tang and the needle plate locating slot?  If we're talking about the same thing then something's definitely wrong as the thread shouldn't go anywhere near that slot.

[Wizcrafts]

My Singer 211G156 can sew with #138 thread, once in a while. Mostly, I keep #92 thread in it and use #19 or 20 needles. I got it to clear #138 thread by moving the hook assembly slightly away from the needle, then adjusting the latch opener lever that pulls the bobbin case back as the top thread goes under the tab that fits under the throat plate. If the pull back doesn't happen, the thread can jam in the tab.

[Mulesaw]

Is there any sort of museum nearby who happens to have a class 7 Singer or something equivalent standing around that you could maybe be allowed to use? Or how about the local Canadian Armed Forces? It couldn't hurt to ask them, if they still have a repair shop for stuff like that, and if they do still have a heavy duty sewing machine, I couldn't see it hurting anybody that you sewed your canvas on it. It isn't like you are asking permission to gain access to the fire control center of a frigate :-)

Or a local tarpulin / canvas shop might have some old heavy duty machinery standing around that they rarely use anymore. You could ask if they would be OK with you doing the sewing and paying them some sort of fee for using the machine.

A third option is to ask in here in a new thread if anyone in your area has got a heavy machine that they'd let you use. 
I'd be happy to let you use mine, but due to the distance it won't help much. But if someone else has got something standing around it might be worth asking.

Brgds Jonas

 

[CowboyBob]

@rac1812  When you 1st start sewing do you hold onto the needle thread for the 1st 3-stitches?

 

[rac1812]

Will try to answer al of the above........ Yes I may need a new machine that can handle at least 138 or better still up to 207........   have to rationalize the expense since I am doing linited number of parts for my truck restoration.... a hobby not a bread earning proposition.....

The idea of borrowing the use of a machine may be more practical ..... there are a few shops left that caters to truckers and for boat covers and will look them up.... they may be a good source for buying used machines or even paying to have the limited sewing I need done........  it just that I enjoy the satisfaction of doing it myself.......approaching the Canadian military is like..... the poor sods  might want to use my machine !!!

 To Bob Kovar..... yes I have learned the hard way that if you do not hold on to the threads you usually pull out of the needle and have to rethread the needle....which means removing my eye glasses, squinting and using a metal wisker device to rethread the needle.....

Now to get technical......... for both Wizcraft and Bob.......    as I can easily slow down my machine to single stitches ......I have observed.... with the steel sliding cover removed.... that the hook turns clock wise and picks up the thread from the needle....and said captured thread slides over the bobbin completely to do the stitching knot........ and repeats for the next stitch....... as it passes over the hook/bobbin holder it eventually slides over the "tang" that is held in place by the slot in the underside of the needle plate......... on my 211g it seems that the space/clearance for the thread to slide through is fine for #90 thread but does not allow the 138 to slide past the tang and a bird nest develops.......... the thread seems to slide on top and past the bobbin latch but gest hung up on the "tab or tang".......

Dikman and Keith...... as best as I can observe the thread loop over the bobbin and slips bet ween the tab/tang and the bottom slot of the needle plate..... but will look again....

Is there a way to increase the clearance on the tab/tang by honing the tab and or the needle base plate???   I have ordered a new needle base plate in case I f&&* up the the one I have.......

I just want to much to use the beige 138 thread I have as it really resembles the old stitching of the original side curtains.....

Wizcraft.... when you say moving the hook assembly slightly to give more clearance for the tang....... how did you do that????   when you remove/replace the total hook assembly is there and adjustment that allows movement.....I remember just dropping the newer one in as a single unit reassembled then fined tuned the hook itself by tapping the hook and looking at the process very slowly while hand turning.....making sure there was no burr on the hook......  I  may have missed that fine adjustment when installing the whole hook unit..... and I do have a new one as spare.....

Thanks for all you help guys.... not easy to solve this kind of issue by texting...... much appreciated.

Bob C

 

 

[rac1812]

One more question.........   some one else is using a bigger thread on a 211G ............ is there a big difference in using 135 "poly" as opposed to 138 bonded nylon??????

Advantages VS short comings......

Found my answers....did a search on Google and it referred me to previous Forum posting......ain't technology wonderful.....

Edited July 2 by rac1812

[CowboyBob]

@rac1812 Slightly loosen the 2 screws on the small hook gear & see if you can get the hook to lower,if it won't move down you could grind out the slot on the bottom of the needle plateTry to increase the size of the slot from front to back(grind on the front side) & try not to take any metal off of the top of the slot.

[rac1812]

Update........ no luck lowering the Hook/bobbin assembly.....but moved the carriage to the right too much and it no longer hooked the thread.... readjusted and broke my first needle....readjusted better now it works again.........finally went at it with a diamond jeweller's file on the groove of the needle plate...... took a few tries but NOW  it works #90 size thread.......    should I get bold and try for #105  and eventually 138 size beige thread....  I do have a spare original needle plate to fall back on now.....  it is tempting......BUT does anyone know whether if it will work on the smaller thread again......

 

Found a Singer 144WSV37......20 inch bed fully cleaned and set up....was used to do cardboard door panels for cars......Needles seem to be rare to find but nice large bobbins....... but can't justify the cost nor the pick up distance.........   meanwhile I may have found some one who will let me use his HD patcher machine....huge thing to big to move out of his basement....... since it has not been used your years ..... I suspect that I would need a few hours to clean it and  properly set it up and then do 15 minutes of my sowing..... but it is feasible.....owner claims  it handles #346 for harnesses and saddles.......  it is not a singer possibly a Pease????  massive hand pulleys works with two pedals.....

Still experimenting and learning.....

 

[Mulesaw]

@rac1812 That HD machine sounds like a beast! Could you please take some pictures of it, if you decide to borrow it for the sewing? (Just out of regular old fashioned curiosity and interest in old machinery :-)

Cleaning and setting up is still easier and cheaper than driving a long distance to get a new machine. Who knows, perhaps he'll even be willing to sell the machine to you?
Most of those old machines can be taken apart in more manageable chunks, If the head is separated from the table, perhaps it could be possible to get it out of the basement. Provided that he is willing to part with it off course.

Good luck

Brgds Jonas 

 

[rac1812]

I have written him asking for a photo...... I know he fabricated his own base on casters and he did separate it for bringing it in his house.... he is a fixer jack of all trade and knowledgeable .... he was fixing all kind of machines free for home sewers making face mask during the Covid 19 crisis.......  BUT also a collector, machinist, unofficial gunsmith, etc.....   also 35 miles from my place!!!!

I agree that borrowing it might be a good investment of my time.

Stay tuned.

[rac1812]

To Mule Saw in Denmark......... his machine is a British United Shoe machinery NO 6.......has the name Pearson and Bennion cast on the arm......  was featured on this forum some years back.

Working on a trial run later this week when the tail end of Hurricane Beryl reaches us with torrential rain....... hoping his basement is high and dry.....

Stay tuned.

[rac1812]

Meanwhile, in the cooler air of the barn, I removed my hook and bobbin assembly.  Had to make some screwdrivers with 90 degree bent shaft and wise grip to loosen the screws.  Cleaned all I could....removed the gear and now satisfied that there is NO way to shorten the kwill shaft a few millimeter as the length is set by the machined bottom of the bobbin holder.  So back in it went...lost my hook setting but easily adjusted with slight movement of the carriage...... I was able to preserve the timing by looking in the set screw hole and see the mark on the  shaft and set my screw right on it.  If nothing else I am learning the mechanics of the machine..... it is intimidating but not impossible.

Tomorrow will pick up my new thread, needles from the UPS across the border..... my chinese parts I get mailed direclty to the house....cheaper and faster.

Thanks for the help Cowboy Bob........... once I get my spare hook/bobbin assembly I may dare filing down the tang/tab to see if I can eventually do #138 or remove still more steel from the needle plate

 

[rac1812]

Help I am over my head......    My 211G156 is malade........  I replaced the whole bobbin holder assembly with a new one and got the new sharp hook line up with the needle..... played with the gears.......  Now it jammed with a bird nest and I forced it forward........ something went cluck........  could the rubber drive belt have skipped a tooth?????

So my main question is....... how do you time the belt gear which has a nice arrow slot.... against what.......  there must be a second mark somewhere that need s to be synchronized with the main drive gear....AND WHERE IS THE ADJUSTMENT????       I believe there was a video of the process but can't find it......  I have the needle bar height and the bobbin/hook adjustment down pat..... but something else is off as the material does not feed properly........     working on the sewing machine is good practice to develop "patience
..... as bigger hammers do not work!!   Now for a beer!!!!

 

[Northmount]

4 hours ago, rac1812 said:

something went cluck

Does your machine have a safety clutch, if so, did it trip?

 

[rac1812]

Duh ....yes..... never looked at it....... so off to the workshop to test it out.  Thanks

[rac1812]

Update.....good news......  persistence paid off.  First off I was given a link to a clear, hi-res copy of the operators manual to circumvent the photo copy of a copy of a copy and can nopw see the arrows and bolt numbers,........and was reminded to RTFM.....so I read the operators manual and all my answers were there.......  Found it difficult to go with accurate mm measurments when it says to tap gently so fell back on my mechanic feeler gauges so a close fit is wehn I can slide easily a 1.5 mm between the needle and the needle deflector...etc.   after moving the complete bobbin assembly back and forth and moving the gear drive back and forth with the help of a second head and a third hand...... we went back to square one as per the singer assembly plant and removed the bobbing holder..... recentered the drive gear and were able, using the cut groove in the various shafts get a close line up of the hook....... than fiddled for fine adjustments.  If you take the time to find the one set screw that actually locks on the grooved shaft, using a flash light in the set screw hole, you can do wonders.    By the end, about 5 hours later, we manually rotated the machine to stitch us a nice even stitch at 5 to the inch.....tension just about OK on heavy canvass...... tomorrow we power up so I can finish my side curtain.......also trashed the existing needle as we discovered a "burr" on the tip,,,,,,, had more in stock.....so set up for #92 thread, top and bottom, with a # 20 needle.  Bought a replacement needle plate that will not fit as the Vee groove for the machine screws was not done deep enough...... will adjust with a stone on the drill press at a later time.  The new made in China bobbin holder was checked with a micrometer and was very accurate.......  Thanks for the help, moral support and all the positive vibes sent my way!!!!!!