What Would You Do?

[GrampaJoel]

Back ground,

Yesterday a saddle was brought in for repair to me with one stirrup leather and fender missing. It was a smaller size saddle, and the person said that the saddle is used for teaching children to ride. Not a very expensive saddle when it was new I would guess. This one had seen quite a bit of use , or abuse.

I checked the saddle out and the tree originally was fiber glassed covered wood, the tree appeared old and dry with quite a bit of the fiberglass in the stirrup leather slot missing but in ok condition I'd say usable for soft riding.The saddle was missing the off side fender and leather.

Upon inspection I found that the fiber glass had either worn or cracked at the stirrup slot upper edge on the bar and had splintered and created a very jagged edge. This I believe had been cutting on the original leather for some time, and is what probably caused the leather to be torn off in the wreck the saddle went through.

Overall the saddles top side at first glance looked fine. But the latago was very old and worn. The remaining stirrup leather was very worn out. The fiberglass on the near side stirrup slot was in ok condition. But the leather was shot. Really shot!!!

I quoted my price (I considered it to be maybe a little high), to replace the one fender and leather and tree in the fender slot area. The person said that is about the same quote they had gotten from someone else, and didn't feel the saddle was worth that amount. ok no big deal to me, I think it's good to get more than one quote.

I would have liked to fix the saddle completely. Sand down the jagged fiberglass and fix it. Replace both of the fenders and leathers and put a new latago on. In general go over the whole saddle and make sure it was safe to use.

I actually considered repairing the saddle at my material cost just so the saddle would be safe for children to use,

But,,,, if this person sells their services as a professional, and uses a saddle in as poor as condition as this one to teach children to ride with, what else is this person doing that would endanger children while learning to ride?

Now my question

So what would you have done?

Edited March 9, 2011 by GrampaJoel

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

I have had the same type of thing come into my shop. I flat out refused to repair the saddle. I told the owner if they cared about the kids they would get them a better saddle. The owner was a lawyer and said that he just wanted the minimal repairs done. I figured that no matter what I fixed on the saddle, if any thing went wrong it would be my fault. It was not worth any amount of money to take the chance. Remember you are the professional and when that saddle leaves your door you are going to be responsible for it. I would have not fixed it if I were you.

Ash

Edited March 9, 2011 by snakehorse saddler

[kseidel]

Ethics in any field of business is a great source of debate. In most professions, there is a licensing requirement in order to practice that profession. Not so in certain areas of the livestock industry. Seems anyone who wants can declare themselves a horse trainer ( or saddle maker, or tree maker, or saddle fitter) and the public perceives them to be a knowledgeable and trained professional that knows what they are doing. In many cases they are no more trained or knowledgeable than any one else. It is one thing for an individual to use inferior tack for personal use. It is quite another for a professional. Many states have adopted the ruling that equine related activities are inherently dangerous and one participates at their own risk. The courts will not assess any blame for negligence on the part of the outfitter, trainer etc. Therefore some individuals take advantage of this situation to prey on the public making their living providing a service without proper equipment, training and precaution. Many injuries are caused each year -both to people and animals alike- from inferior tack used in professional endeavors and no one is held accountable because of the "inherent dangers." We should all work diligently to hold our related industries to a higher standard of professionalism!

I do not want the government to interfere with the freedom of our industry, but if we do not police ourselves and refuse to engage in these unscrupulous practices, then we leave ourselves open for future regulation.

OK, I will get off my soap box now and let someone else have it to voice their opinion.

Keith

[Kevin]

Right on, I can't believe the stuff that I see sometimes from so called reputable companies, but once it is out of their hands they never see it again or don't care.

Kevin

[GrampaJoel]

snakehorse saddler

Thank you for your reply.While I haven't made any saddles from start to finish, I have repaired a few.

I won't repair any saddle if I am not allowed to do a repair correctly and completely.

But I sure hate to see someone else get the money. Yes it is a loss of money. Lets face it.

However, I would rather be able to keep my sleep at night knowing I did what was right, and try and find the money in good work.

kseidel

Mr. Seidel I am honored, as always, that you have taken the time to share your thoughts. I would be happy to bring a soap box for you to stand on anytime you would like to speak about any related field of the saddle business.

Thank you for contributing to my thread.

The business of making saddles and equine related equipment and horse/horse rider training run hand and hand. As you stated there is no licensing requirement in order to practice in any of these professions.

Maybe there should be.

However, I am not a fan of big government interference.

Ethics, that is what it all comes down to I guess.

Joel

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Joel, Keith is spot on. If you can't fix it or make it right, then don't do it. After all, at night you are the one that has to sleep with the work you do. Quite often, I get similar situations with the guys from the Race Track. Being professional trainers, you would think that of all people, they would know how dangerous it is even with good tack on those horses that are trained to do one thing, go! Not the case. If I can't do it right I will just pass. I am sure that all the makers on this sight are faced with the same choices each day. Like Keith said "I do not want the government to interfere with the freedom of our industry, but if we do not police ourselves and refuse to engage in these unscrupulous practices, then we leave ourselves open for future regulation. ". Hope you don't mind me climbing on your box for a couple of moments Keith.

Bob

[Fred P]

I had a situation along these lines that I would like to share and would appreciate any input. A couple of years ago a lady brought a saddle to me she had recently purchased used. It was basically a generic factory made saddle. Her request was to clean and oil the saddle and "just check it out for me". The saddle was in pretty decent shape, and I performed the cleaning and oil as she requested, and told her it looked like she made a good buy. Two weeks later she called me furious because the off strap broke while someone was riding. The rider fell to the ground. He was not serously injured, just banged up a little bit. When she returned to my shop, I inspected the strap and noted it was a single ply piece of what I thought was harness leather. It had a long scratch across the side of the strap. A hole had torn out right at the scratch. The owner yelled at me saying that I told her the saddle was "good to ride". She even brought family members, so she had support I guess. I tried to explain to her there is no way to gaurantee the strength of a piece of leather. At that point, no amount of explaining was going to do any good, they just wanted to take their anger out on me. To shorten the story, I replaced the strap at no cost, just to get them to leave, then waited nervously for them to sue me, as that is what they were threatening to do. They never did, thankfully.

I am not a professional saddle maker, but want to learn ! I do repairs that I feel comfortable and competent to do. I wanted to share this story to seek input from some pros, but also to seek advice on how or if there is a financially feasable way to insure yourself for that liability. I know you could buy insurance for just about everything as long as you have the money ! Also do any of the full time makers provide some sort of disclaimer or something along those lines,, for repairs or new saddles. If I hear " ride at your own risk" would make me wonder about the quality of the work. I gotta admit I had many sleepless nights worrying about this and the person that got hurt.

If anyone has a disclaimer they wouldn't mind sharing, I would appreciate studying one.

Enough of my rambling ! and I apologize if I have hijacked the thread. Reading Joel's post made me think of this and I thought about sharing this, so hopefully some positive advice can help someone else.

Joel, I would have done the same as you did for the same reasons. I dont want my name ( and conscience) on shoddy unsafe work !

Thanks for listening !

Sincerely,

Fred

[BOB BRENNER]

I agree. If it can not be done right, don't do it. Everytime you take a shortcut it will cost you.

Fred,

This is what is on my invoices and on the web site.

Pikes Peak Saddlery selects materials and constructs our products and repairs to provide optimum quality and durability. Horses are strong and powerful animals that can cause the failure of even the highest quality products and repairs. Your common sense and commitment to equine safety are vital for the safety of both you and your horse.

Feel free to one and all.

Bob

[kseidel]

Back on the soap box again... There is plenty of room up here for all of you who feel as strongly as I about the health and well being of our industry.

When doing repairs on sub standard equipment, it is hard to know when to stop. You can't rebuild the entire product for a repair! I believe it is imperative that everyone doing leatherwork on equine products should have a working knowledge of the equipment, and make the hard decisions of what is acceptable and what is not, and then stand behind your work, good or bad. When we allow inferior work to go unpunished, it blackens the eye of an entire industry. If you are not qualified to do safe work, then do not do it. Nothing against hobby leatherworkers, but they are not trained professionals and may not be qualified to "fix the neighbors" tack. Many retailers are not knowledgeable in the area of safety and practical use of tack and are only interested in making the sale. Sure there are several ways to make something "work" but in Fred's case, a single ply off side billet is not acceptable. We professionals must recognize these things and either fix them to be safe, or refuse to work on the product. Many times this may mean loss of revenue, but it is ill gotten gains, that may result in injury.

Fred, there many types of insurances available to protect yourself from financial ruin. It is unwise, and in some instances, illegal to conduct business without liability insurance. Since it can be expensive, many do not have such coverage. You may say "it costs too much" but in the long run it is just part of the cost of doing business. It is one of the reasons "hobby" leatherwork costs less than professional. If you cannot afford liability insurance, can you really afford to be in business?

I encourage professionals to get the training and knowledge to be legitimate in your business, and to charge rates that reflect the costs of doing business responsibly.

I caution hobbyists against doing work beyond your skill level, and not to charge for your work. When you accept funds for your work, you are no longer just a hobbyist, but considered a professional, and therefore liable for your actions.

Sorry if this came out as a rant...

Keith

[Billy H]

Hi Keith,

I don't think I disagree with what your saying. But regardless what industry-----there is always going to be good and bad and some-where in the middle.

That will go on as long as there is human nature.

My" SOAP BOX"

I think that as adults it is our responsibility to educate ourselves about safety before we get into a hobby or sport ,especially when it comes to" Horses".

There are so many folks out riding horses with terrible equipment, bad for the riders safety and bad for the horses safety. Again it comes back to human nature.

Can't tell you how many times I have had to endure stories of how someone got such a good deal on a saddle and then ended up in a wreck with the horse because

either something broke or the fit was no where close to the animal they where riding. Sometimes I just want to scream at them an say you #%*## what did you expect.

Sorry,I needed to vent (ok I feel better). Billy

[Fred P]

Thanks for the input folks... I know these topics can fuel debate. I hope I wasnt unclear , but I did not put that strap on the saddle, and when this happened I contacted my insurance agent to inquire about policies. Without the agent's details, he said there was nothing available to suit my needs. Years ago I was a partner in a trailer manufacturing business, and just for product liability insurance on the trailers was $ 1800 per month, in 1994. That didnt include liability insurance for the building , equiment, machinery or anything else, just 1 million in product liability. So thats why I asked about the insurance for our trade, meaning product liability. I do carry insurance for the very reasons Mr. Seidel speaks of.

I also agree with Mr. Seidel about single ply billets not being acceptable. But I see them for sale in catalogs and western stores, and I see people buying them only looking at price, not safety. It was a lesson learned for my part as well. I have lost customers and sales, because I would not do what the customer wanted, specifically because they wanted me to half- a** something back together. I have run across more people who think that waving a majic wand over the saddle and 20 bucks later its fixed. I get many who want to share "their" leather work experience from a Tandy kit they had in school, and think a rivet here or a stitch there will fix their saddle.

Billy also brings up an excellent point. There is little personal accountability for things anymore. When something happens its not always someone else's fault. When I ride, its my responsibility to check my tack and gear. And I do it, cause its my rear on top of the horse ! It always seems someone is looking to blame others for their own actions, or lack of. My favorites are the lawyers on TV commercials about car wrecks, telling people, ( I'll get you a check and make the others pay ") . I spoke with a saddle shop owner in North Texas who told me that he sees all kinds of slick things people try to get by him. When I asked him about my deal, his first question was do they trailer load a saddled up horse. The scratch resembled that kind of action, and that can be the start of the torn piece. There were a lot of variables in my case that I dont know, so its hard for me decide exactly what happened.

I dont think lying was the case with me, but people can sometimes be downright deceitful, to get something out of someone else.

I really appreciate the input and take no offense from any statements. Constructive insight will always help !

Things can also be " what - if " to death sometimes too..... What if mosquitos had machine guns !!!!!

Fred

By the way: I still have that strap hanging on the wall in my shop... as a reminder !

[WyomingSlick]

I think you missed a good opportunity here. You could have offered to check out the rest of their equipment (for a reasonable fee, of course) and then you, and them, could rest easy knowing that all of their stuff was in a safe condition.

[GrampaJoel]

WyomingSlick I think you missed a good opportunity here. You could have offered to check out the rest of their equipment (for a reasonable fee, of course) and then you, and them, could rest easy knowing that all of their stuff was in a safe condition.

I don't know if you are replying to me or Fred P.

In my case I had never met this person before. They had been given my card and had received several recommendations by several folks in the local saddle club. I would have loved the chance to earn a few dollars doing repairs. But they decided that the repair work they needed on the saddle wasn't worth the price of the repair.

I believe that in fact the repairs would have upped the value of the saddle. (1)They wouldn't have to purchase a new saddle, and then still have this broken one laying around going to rot, and (2) they would have a saddle in good working order worth more than when it was broken, and have a few dollars in their pockets from not having to buy a new saddle.

Now, all the info I have on the trainer came out in our conversation while at my place. I would have loved to see what else they are using, and have the opportunity to fix it if it was not safe to use. I could always use the bucks.

On the other hand, I'm not a saddle or tack cop.

It really isn't any of my business to decide what a trainer, as far as tack equipment should be allowed to use or not. That is up to the trainer and trainee do ponder.

I do leather work. Period. I create from scratch, and I do repairs.

As far as Fred P goes , perhaps he has something to input also.

Joel

[Saddlebag]

The general public, including coaches and trainers, really have no idea of what saddle repair costs. Most of us don't have a clue with auto fixin' costs, so we sometimes get a second opinion. There comes a point where the cost to repair likely warrants getting something else. Even with the repairs the saddle is still an old saddle that's seen it's better days and would likely be needing more repair not too far down the road. I too will not fix a saddle if it can't be done properly. No shortcuts. I will even write on their invoice that the saddle is unfit if necessary. I don't want it coming back to bite me in a**.

[WyomingSlick]

I don't know if you are replying to me or Fred P.

XXXXXXXX

Joel

Of course I was responding to you as the thread starter who asked "what would you do?"

Now, you indicated some concern about the safety of the kids, and voiced some doubts about the competance of the people who were teaching them. If that is all true, then what better course to take then to lead them into the idea that perhaps they had better have the rest of their equipment checked out by a professional; namely you. A bit of conversation along these lines would give you a better sense of where they stand on the issue and if they are worth bothering with.

[GrampaJoel]

WyomingSlick

GrampaJoel

I don't know if you are replying to me or Fred P.

Joel

Of course I was responding to you as the thread starter who asked "what would you do?"

Now, you indicated some concern about the safety of the kids, and voiced some doubts about the competance of the people who were teaching them. If that is all true, then what better course to take then to lead them into the idea that perhaps they had better have the rest of their equipment checked out by a professional; namely you. A bit of conversation along these lines would give you a better sense of where they stand on the issue and if they are worth bothering with

.

Well I don't have an argument with what you have said in the quote above. In hindsight it might have been a good thing to suggest. Perhaps if I had, had some training as a used car salesman I might be quicker on my feet at making a suggestion that would lead to a money making sale.

So, I will restate,

I am a leather worker, not a cop for the equine profession.

I have my concerns no doubt. But they are just my concerns.

But as far as being a regulator of others. I am not that interested.

WyomingSlick

Thanks for replying to my thread and suggesting a method to bring more revenue into my leather working efforts. It gives me something to think about for the future.

Joel

[ASMA]

Have been following this thread and others the talked about being professional. Here is some food for thought. If the moderator needs to put it into another topic please do so.

I agree with Keith’s comments 100%. He and I have had discussions on this subject and we are on the same page. Keith is more diplomatic on the subject than I.

Quoting Keith.

"I encourage professionals to get the training and knowledge to be legitimate in your business, and to charge rates that reflect the costs of doing business responsibly."

"I caution hobbyists against doing work beyond your skill level, and not to charge for your work. When you accept funds for your work, you are no longer just a hobbyist, but considered a professional, and therefore liable for your actions."

"I do not want the government to interfere with the freedom of our industry,..."

Folks, government "interference" or regulation can come in many forms.

FYI Here are a couple that will effect us all this year (2011) and next year (2012).

Effective January 1, 2011, the IRS (Section 6050W of the IRS Code) requires reporting of all payment card and third party network transactions. Your reporting entity will be required to file an annual information return with the IRS and provide you with a Form 1099-K, which reports monthly and annual gross sales. So all of us that accept credit cards for payment will have those sales reported to the IRS. For the hobbyist or part time leather worker that uses Paypal or similar services as we understand it, will also have those sales reported to the IRS. You are now a business and subject to all that entails. You know how the IRS feels about unreported income!!

Beginning in 2012, under the Health Care Act passed in 2009, all business are required to report through a 1099 for all purchases from vendors over $600. As we understand it, this is total purchases for the year and not individual purchases. That’s two saddle trees, 3 to 4 sides of leather, or a sewing machine. This is current law. To change this provision of the Health Care Act requires Congress to repeal the provision. So far two attempts have been made and both failed.

How’s everyone’s blood pressure.

Given the current Federal budget deficits, Congress is looking for every possible method to collect more revenue, so this is just the beginning. Everyone paying their fair share. The train is moving and gaining speed. If you can remain off the grid, no problem, but as you see that remaining off the grid is becoming harder. What is the next deal - vendors (Tandy) reporting your purchases? Therefore, it could be time to become more proactive.

For your consideration.

Bob

　

　

　

[Billy H]

Hi folks.

First thing is---Joel sorry if this thread took a direction that you did not intend. I know that it has happend to you before, but you come across as a fellow looking to gain knowlege and seek opinions.

I know I have enjoyed those threads that you have started and have gained some food for thought.

I will also agree with you (Joel) that i am not a industry cop---don't want to be.

I have also realized that to support a family in this business would be very hard, especially given todays economy. You Makers (Saddle, Tree ,Tack) out there who are doing just that---I take my hat off to you.

Keith Siedel, Troy West, Steve Brewer, JW, Jon Watsabaugh,Bruce Johnson-----------------the list goes on, the Nikkles. All producing top end equipment for sure. I think folks like you have integrity.

Integrity is a word a code of conduct that is disappearing. I sure could be wrong, but integrity is not something you police, either you have it or you don't.

Your probably scatching your head, wondering if I have been pouring something extra in my coffee this morning------not today.

New saddle maker is what I am, working very hard to produce good equipment, we all have to start somewhere. You top hands are producing better stuff now than you did 15 years ago im sure-----------

well maybe Keith was born with a swivel knife in your hand. (Just kidding, your work blows me away my friend)

Billy

[BOB BRENNER]

Back to the original subject.

What would I do given an inexpensive saddle described as in below average condition missing a fender and stirrup leather presented for repair? In this situation I would agree with the customer and decline the repair.

Rational: (This is how I approach all repairs.)

First, once the repair is competed, can the item be used safely as it is intended? If not then we stop here. Repair will be declined.

Second, is the repair cost effective? Here, I use the 50% rule. If the cost of the repair is 50% or more of the replacement value or current market value of the item, the repair should be declined as not cost effective. The final decision is with the customer and they may decide to continue with the repair for their own reasons. In my shop the repair (new fender and new stirrup leathers) cost would be $278.00 and a national average would be around $243.00 . In this case could the customer sell the saddle for $500.00? From the description of the saddle I think it would be unlikely. Given the description of the saddle the cost of the repairs are very likely to be more than the value of the saddle. To some, these prices will be high. These prices are based on realistic and sound accounting practices.

From time to time a customer will ask me to use cheaper materials or "can’t you just throw a couple of stitches in it?" My policy is to only use quality materials and workmanship in all repairs no matter the quality of the item. It is my reputation. Also, I do not know how to throw a stitch.

Also, I check each item for overall safety and inform the customer of any problems they may not be aware of. If the customer says not to worry, I note the problem on the invoice. CYA.

Just because a repair can be done does not mean it should be done.

As for "But,,,, if this person sells their services as a professional, and uses a saddle in as poor as condition as this one to teach children to ride with, what else is this person doing that would endanger children while learning to ride?" After 35+ years in this business where does one start? I think Keith and others have hit all the highlights.

Bob

[catskin]

While I do not disagree with any of the opinions expressed here this is what I see your situation to have been.

You were asked to CLEAN and OIL this saddle, NOT INSPECT and CERTIFY it as safe. They accepted it as clean and oiled when it was picked up. You have no way of knowing if the strap was damaged after it left your place. Nor could they prove that it was damaged at the time you saw it. It was THEIR responsablity to inspect it before they used it.

I had a situation along these lines that I would like to share and would appreciate any input. A couple of years ago a lady brought a saddle to me she had recently purchased used. It was basically a generic factory made saddle. Her request was to clean and oil the saddle and "just check it out for me". The saddle was in pretty decent shape, and I performed the cleaning and oil as she requested, and told her it looked like she made a good buy. Two weeks later she called me furious because the off strap broke while someone was riding. The rider fell to the ground. He was not serously injured, just banged up a little bit. When she returned to my shop, I inspected the strap and noted it was a single ply piece of what I thought was harness leather. It had a long scratch across the side of the strap. A hole had torn out right at the scratch. The owner yelled at me saying that I told her the saddle was "good to ride". She even brought family members, so she had support I guess. I tried to explain to her there is no way to gaurantee the strength of a piece of leather. At that point, no amount of explaining was going to do any good, they just wanted to take their anger out on me. To shorten the story, I replaced the strap at no cost, just to get them to leave, then waited nervously for them to sue me, as that is what they were threatening to do. They never did, thankfully.

I am not a professional saddle maker, but want to learn ! I do repairs that I feel comfortable and competent to do. I wanted to share this story to seek input from some pros, but also to seek advice on how or if there is a financially feasable way to insure yourself for that liability. I know you could buy insurance for just about everything as long as you have the money ! Also do any of the full time makers provide some sort of disclaimer or something along those lines,, for repairs or new saddles. If I hear " ride at your own risk" would make me wonder about the quality of the work. I gotta admit I had many sleepless nights worrying about this and the person that got hurt.

If anyone has a disclaimer they wouldn't mind sharing, I would appreciate studying one.

Enough of my rambling ! and I apologize if I have hijacked the thread. Reading Joel's post made me think of this and I thought about sharing this, so hopefully some positive advice can help someone else.

Joel, I would have done the same as you did for the same reasons. I dont want my name ( and conscience) on shoddy unsafe work !

Thanks for listening !

Sincerely,

Fred