Do Feedlot Cattle Hides Make Inferior Leather?

[mauifarrier]

OK friends, I've been reading a lot of posts on the subject of skirting leather quality and where to get the best stuff. I can find positive and negative feedback about nearly all the primary tanneries and suppliers.

Here's my question. Could the change in cattle farming over the past decade be any explanation for the "drop off" in quality? Even from the prominent tanneries like HO, WC, etc?

I'm wondering if the hides on feedlot cattle are somehow fattier, or inferior from lack of exercise - diet - etc. I've read descriptions of mushy spots in hides, fat rolls, significant drop off in thickness, problems in the belly area, etc. Perhaps I'm grasping at straws, but if the hides are inferior before they even reach the tanneries, perhaps it's an explanation. I plan to ask WC next week as I finalize my order for some drum dyed black skirting. Out in Hawaii where I live, we have mostly grass fed beef. I make my own rawhide from deer, cow, and goat. I've experienced the difference between a fat or lean animal when making rawhide, especially with the deer.

Thank you to each person who will share their thoughts.

[Art]

I have been to a few packing plants and to a US tannery. From what I can see, there is just no way to tell. At the packing plant, the animals go in and meat, offal, and hides come out. At the tannery, the hides may be sorted a very little by weight and then they are in line for tanning. They do some experimenting with longer tan times etc, and maybe this is the only place to get some data, but generally not. There is little chance of any correlation to hides at the packer so there any trail is lost. Meat is their business, and I am sure their buyers are getting data about quality and quantity, but they could care less about the hide. W&C uses a lot of hides from their owner, a large Canadian packer, generally you get cleaner hides from Canada, but they sometimes need to buy elsewhere. I just think there isn't enough data.

Art

OK friends, I've been reading a lot of posts on the subject of skirting leather quality and where to get the best stuff. I can find positive and negative feedback about nearly all the primary tanneries and suppliers.

Here's my question. Could the change in cattle farming over the past decade be any explanation for the "drop off" in quality? Even from the prominent tanneries like HO, WC, etc?

I'm wondering if the hides on feedlot cattle are somehow fattier, or inferior from lack of exercise - diet - etc. I've read descriptions of mushy spots in hides, fat rolls, significant drop off in thickness, problems in the belly area, etc. Perhaps I'm grasping at straws, but if the hides are inferior before they even reach the tanneries, perhaps it's an explanation. I plan to ask WC next week as I finalize my order for some drum dyed black skirting. Out in Hawaii where I live, we have mostly grass fed beef. I make my own rawhide from deer, cow, and goat. I've experienced the difference between a fat or lean animal when making rawhide, especially with the deer.

Thank you to each person who will share their thoughts.

[bruce johnson]

A good percentage of the slaughtered cattle have been coming out of feedlots for decades. It is more than just that one factor. They may be younger due to selection for genetics with faster growth or feed conversion efficiency. I think the amount of fat may play a part in all of this too. Cattle are maybe not fed up to the same amount of fat they were in the past, so if they want to follow that argument then hides should be improving. There is a lot of things at work here like the premiums for black hided cattle, feed costs, and overall cattle numbers reportedly world-wide. The bigger factor probably in all of this is the veg tanning industry is pretty small compared to the export market.

[Vikti]

Some of us were talking with George Hurst about that a while back and he told us that ranchers are trying to get their cattle to market faster than ever and that the average head of cattle is about 20 months old and you simply cannot get a thick hide at that young of a age. I'm sure there are several other factors out there but this could help to understand why.

Damon

[Ken Nelson]

Some of us were talking with George Hurst about that a while back and he told us that ranchers are trying to get their cattle to market faster than ever and that the average head of cattle is about 20 months old and you simply cannot get a thick hide at that young of a age. I'm sure there are several other factors out there but this could help to understand why.

Damon

Actually, there are probably more cattle being slaughtered at 14 months old than 20 the last few years. Age does play a significant role in the size and quality of leather. Also and more important is the fact that cattle are killed at a lighter weight than ever before and that combined with the young age(which is an off shoot of the lighter weight) Another factor is the influence of european breeds and their crosses with the traditional English breeds. Hereford cattle for decades were considered the best for quality leather ( I don't know if that was true or not) Northern cattle will have a thicker more dense hide if they have been through a couple of winters. I beleive it is a combination of a lot of factors. My 2 cents worth. Ken

[RWB]

13-15 oz #1 sides from HO are still plenty heavy with-out any fall off. Haven't had a problem here.................

Ross

[Randy Cornelius]

A good percentage of the slaughtered cattle have been coming out of feedlots for decades. It is more than just that one factor. They may be younger due to selection for genetics with faster growth or feed conversion efficiency. I think the amount of fat may play a part in all of this too. Cattle are maybe not fed up to the same amount of fat they were in the past, so if they want to follow that argument then hides should be improving. There is a lot of things at work here like the premiums for black hided cattle, feed costs, and overall cattle numbers reportedly world-wide. The bigger factor probably in all of this is the veg tanning industry is pretty small compared to the export market.

Bruce, I am just shooting from the hip here but the Angus Ass has done such a great job promoting the Angus cattle that nearly all the heards in my area are black. I went to the sale several times over the last couple years trying to buy some color for my heard as I was tried of looking at black all the time. You cannot find any colored cattle at all around my area. Maybe a few black baldies but nothing brendel or herford, charlios etc. I am wondering if this has something to do with the quality of leather. Almost all the feed lots want those black cattle these days.

Just my thoughts....

Randy

[bruce johnson]

Randy,

The Angus people have done a good job with their promotion of the Certified Angus beef for sure. With better prices it is real plus for the people than run them. With the exception of one major feeder, most of the cattle in our area are shipped to the midwest for finishing. There is a lot of fall calving here and they are a source to fill pens and complement the spring calving in the upper midwest. My uncle is a packer buyer back there and sees a lot cattle that originate right around here. It used to he'd complain about the mix of breeds - it looked like every breed composite, and crossbred was represented in a load (and they were). Now things have shifted and there is a lot more uniformity. The way cattle are now fed and sold in penlots made that a bigger necessity. There probably aren't many individual sorts within pens as there was back in the day. In the last while the southern drought that has brought some older cattle to the market. That may be a bubble for bigger and thicker hides due to age.

I think Ken hit on a few other factors of breed and age. The northern cattle are thicker hided and Canadian cattle bigger due to more continental cattle breeds. The big spready cowsides from Europe used to be mostly destined for the Asian market according the to hide report they run in ShopTalk. They didn't have the insect problem and branding that we do here. When they had the foot and mouth disease problem a few years back that shifted those tanners buying more in the US market and that changed things here. When you think of all the leather that is tanned into upholstery leather, easy to see the demand. It used to be leather car seats were a big deal, we all rode around on vinyl. Now leather seats are pretty common. Figure in the manufacturing of shoes and clothes and pretty easy to see that the vegtan market is a smaller slice.

I'd be curious to hear how the hides are sorted in the big plants for tanneries or hide brokers. I have heard brands/no brands and weight are it. I don't know how many of them are contracted or sold direct and how many go through brokers either.

[mauifarrier]

Thank you all SO much for contributing your thoughts. As a newer saddle maker (under 5 years) I was finally going to tackle an unusual saddle project and was ready to commit to top quality leather. I had placed my order after believing I had chosen a very good supplier and then started reading negative feedback about them (WC) as well as all the top sources. It just got me to thinking. Thanks! A young age makes even more sense than fat content in the skin. I'll post one more time after asking the folks at WC when I finalize my order. Shipping to Hawaii can require some creativity.

Aloha,

Gretchen

[terrymac]

Bruce, I would be willing to bet there is not a whole lot of sorting at the packing plant. I don't know if you have spent any time on a kill floor, but cattle are skinned in a matter of seconds. It is literally pulled off the carcas and spun into about a 6" roll. Those plants are processing thousands of cattle a day, and I would bet they have an arrangement with someone to take all the hides and process somewhere else. It is quite a process to see. Not something I would want to do on a daily basis.

Terry

[bruce johnson]

Terry,

I worked labor in a hog slaughter plant for several years going through college, but never worked a cow kill. Two of my uncles were/are cattle buyers and my dad was a hog buyer. Yep, it is a pretty fast process. One uncle buys for IBP and he said they do some hide processing themselves. I don't know how far they carry it or where their hides go from there. Out here one of our clients had a hide business. They sourced hides from small to medium packing plants and rendering plants. They had a warehouse of salted hides that were palleted. I think most were packed into containers and went to Asian tanneries. I never really dealt with anyone on that side of their business to find out how it all worked.

My brother graded/sorted carcasses in a beef plant. At that time, some went to the high end restaurant trade, some to other markets, and then the normal boxed beef channels. At least in the hog plant when I was working by-products were a big deal and the make or break deal. They used to say the glands out of the hogs paid for the kill floor labor and the by-products paid the operating labor costs. They harvested the replacement heart valves there sometimes too. What I mostly know about the hide sales comes from the hide report in ShopTalk. There are categories and classifications of hide grades but I don't know who does it and where in the process. If weight is part of the criteria you'd think it is done at the plants. WC has ties to the Canadian plant. HO used to say they get eastern hides because they have less brands and insect problems. I don't know which plants they get them from or whether they go through brokers to get what they want.

[DoubleAdobe]

Interesting subject. I have been in and around the cow business most of my life and have a few observations.

I worked as a Livestock Officer, otherwise known as a brand inspector for many years here in Arizona. It was state law and still

is for range livestock to be branded with a fire brand. Occasionally, there was some push back from the slaughter industry trying to

convince the ranchers that they would receive more money for their cattle if they wouldn't mar the cattle with brands. Trust me when

I tell you that the price received on the hoof is not appreciably more for cattle that are not branded. In theory it should work, but in the

West, every one has to brand, with the exception of calves still on their mothers, unweaned, and certain exemptions for dairy cattle

that aren't turned out to graze.

Anyway, this "you guys are killing my profit margin" deal that was coming from the slaughter industry was a pain in the neck to us..

From my knowledge of the cattle industry, the amount that the average hide brings, of a slaughter steer, mature cow, or even bull is a

pretty negliglble amount when penciled out.

I can't recall the exact amounts, but in the early 90's, there was a place in Phoenix, not a half mile south of the capitlol building, that

processed hides from all over the state, and if IIRC California as well. SouthWest Hide or something, may well be in business but I doubt it.Dirty, noisy, filthy and hot. I went and watched some of there process there for a while one morning. They evidently didn't do the tanning there but prepared the hides for the tanning process and bought hides from all over, ran them through some kind of process then put them on pallets and sent them somewhere.

[bruce johnson]

When Shoptalk was running the hide price deal routinely the hides were bringing $50-60 and brands were discounted some, but it wasn't a huge amount. It sure wasn't enough to discourage branding. Southwest Hide was part of the place I did some vet work for 20 some years ago although I never dealt with the owners. They had a hide warehouse in Ripon CA and the palletized salted hides were loaded into containers. We are pretty close to the ports here and I am sure they went to Asian tanneries. The warehouse is something else now and I am not sure if they are still in the hide business somewhere else or not.

[Ken Nelson]

When Shoptalk was running the hide price deal routinely the hides were bringing $50-60 and brands were discounted some, but it wasn't a huge amount. It sure wasn't enough to discourage branding. Southwest Hide was part of the place I did some vet work for 20 some years ago although I never dealt with the owners. They had a hide warehouse in Ripon CA and the palletized salted hides were loaded into containers. We are pretty close to the ports here and I am sure they went to Asian tanneries. The warehouse is something else now and I am not sure if they are still in the hide business somewhere else or not.

Where I grew up, on the northern plains, the older men used to tell me that cattle had to be mature to make good leather. I remember when most of the cattle in the Nebraska Sandhills, South of I-90 in South Dakota and a lot of Eastern Wyoming went to the feedlot as long yearling cattle. I even remember when a few outfits run big steers (long two year olds). Cattle were fed longer, most of them were of strong hereford influence. There were no implants and few or no chemicals fed to these cattle. I also suspect the tanning process was different then.

A lot of people ate their own grass fat cattle back then. They were often close to 3 years old and BIG. Hides brought $2.50. Maybe fed a little grain for a month or two. I doubt most consumers would eat it today. In fact, I bought a quarter of beef a couple of years ago like that, I loved it but most of my guests thought it was less than good.

I get disquested with fat wrinkles in leather these days and the fact they run off more than they used to. I also get some really good hides. I think most of our suppliers do a good job with what they have to work with. I guess most things change over time and we will adjust or just Quit. A few thoughts, Ken

[catskin]

Having tanned a few cow hides myself I think Ken hit this one dead on. And the others are all pretty close. I strongly believe that once the hair is off, the hides with the fewest imperfections on the suface get sorted into the garment and upholstery line. So the saddlery and other types get the next level down.