Justifying your pricing to customers in a Big Box Store world

[cjartist]

3 hours ago, JLSleather said:

I'm still simple (really -- just ask anyone).  I don't pay $100 for a belt.  Somebody can tell me stories about how it's 'real' leather, it's laminated, it's hand stitched, uphill both ways.. and that just isn't going to sway me.   If there's a guy selling grade A Hermann Oak leather  belts, double layer and double stitched, for $70 -- then what will you tell me to suggest that I pay more?

If I pay more for something, it's because either it's something I can't get somewhere else, or it's BETTER.

• Because something is 'handmade' does not make it better.
• Putting a higher price tag on it does not make it better.
• Taking longer to do it does not make it better.
• Adding a video and a blog about it does not make it better.

I could go on, but in the end it's simple. If you hope to charge me more, then tell me how it's BETTER.

Oh, and I might just walk away from someone who started about how many hours they have in it.  Who cares, anyway?  Example:

Guy1 and Guy 2 both use A-grade leather, the same dyes/glue/thread, all the same materials.  The belts look very much alike.  Both guys want $30 per hour.

Guy1 cut his leather with a 7' straight edge, then used a strap cutter to cut the belt strips, then marked out the tip and buckle ends with a stylus, trimmed and punched with tools and a mallet.  This portion of one belt took an hour.

Guy2 ran a back through a strap cutter, making 18 strips.  Then he clicked the ends of the straps.  This portion took an hour.  For 9 belts.

Both belts are the same materials, had the same things done to them.  WHY would I pay more because Guy1 took longer?  I've actually seen videos where guys show how SLOW they can go with their sewing machine.  Seriously.. anybody ever try that at a job interview?  

• 'Why should we pay you $30 per hour?'
• "Well, cuz I'm really, really slow!'
• 

 

I would think the two items, as you described should be priced equally.  How else do you pay for a strap cutter and clicker die? 

Obviously the guy charging less has either been doing it for a very long time and his equipment is paid for and depreciated. OR, it is just bad business and they feel they need o undercut their prices to get customers.

I think the best advice is to make it truly unique to make it worthy of more $$$

[JLSleather]

27 minutes ago, cjartist said:

I would think the two items, as you described should be priced equally

I agree that equal items have equal value.  That is my point.  But the question was -- how to justify DIFFERENT pricing than someone else's.  ANd my point is, if you want a different price, then you need to have a different value.  That's because I don't pay more for equal value.  And better value is either better materials, or better workmanship, or both.

Well, I have never asked anyone in this thread (or others, for that matter) how much they charge or why.  Simply put - that's none of my business.  

One guy charge $10, next guy charge $100 for the same thing.  No matter to me.  I am always surprised by people who will pay $50 and up for a piece of leather folded over, sewn, and called a wallet.  But, long as they aren't spending my money, still not my business

When I shop, I compare the ITEM in question.  If it isn't better, then I'm not paying more.  If it is better, I might pay a bit more.

One more example for clarification:  Two guys make a holster for the same model, ..

• from teh same materials, and they are comparable in function and look.  I would pay the same for either.
• from the same materials, but one better work.  I'd buy the "nicer" one - even if it was priced a bit higher.
• 1 guy from leather not as nice, but they both do quality work, I'd buy the "nicer" one - even if it was priced a bit higher.
• Both same leather, both same okay-ish work, I would pay the same for either.
• Both same leather, both okay-ish work, both come with a pretty story about how the maker is a disabled / transexual / single parent / ex-cop / veteran / etc...(this is not the whole list, just some of teh more common "lines" I hear). I'll assume there's something about your product you want to distract from.. and I'll buy from some third person who is selling me leather instead of selling me a story.

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by JLSleather

[carguy4471]

19 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

I agree that equal items have equal value.  That is my point.  But the question was -- how to justify DIFFERENT pricing than someone else's.  ANd my point is, if you want a different price, then you need to have a different value.  That's because I don't pay more for equal value.  And better value is either better materials, or better workmanship, or both.

Well, I have never asked anyone in this thread (or others, for that matter) how much they charge or why.  Simply put - that's none of my business.  

One guy charge $10, next guy charge $100 for the same thing.  No matter to me.  I am always surprised by people who will pay $50 and up for a piece of leather folded over, sewn, and called a wallet.  But, long as they aren't spending my money, still not my business

When I shop, I compare the ITEM in question.  If it isn't better, then I'm not paying more.  If it is better, I might pay a bit more.

One more example for clarification:  Two guys make a holster for the same model, ..

• from teh same materials, and they are comparable in function and look.  I would pay the same for either.
• from the same materials, but one better work.  I'd buy the "nicer" one - even if it was priced a bit higher.
• 1 guy from leather not as nice, but they both do quality work, I'd buy the "nicer" one - even if it was priced a bit higher.
• Both same leather, both same okay-ish work, I would pay the same for either.
• Both same leather, both okay-ish work, both come with a pretty story about how the maker is a disabled / transexual / single parent / ex-cop / veteran / etc...(this is not the whole list, just some of teh more common "lines" I hear). I'll assume there's something about your product you want to distract from.. and I'll buy from some third person who is selling me leather instead of selling me a story.

 

 

 

Although a bit harsh sounding on the surface, it is in fact how I evaluate a purchase as well.  I'm not going to pay more if I can't see why in the quality of the product.  Although I don't sell leather work, if someone asked to buy something from me it isn't going be spendy....   the quality just isn't there yet and I could not in good conscience charge what they'd pay for something I know would be far superior.    

The one thing I would add to the above, I do tend to pay for experience.  If I see two equal products and one is done by someone with 30 years experience and the other by someone with 1 year under their belt I'm going with experience even though the quality appears to be the same. 

[JimTimber]

Veteran status isn't meant to differentiate quality.  We had each other's backs in the service and we have each other's backs as civilians.  It's a calling card letting other vets know we're on the same team.

I've had people say I should put more emphasis on the fact I'm a service connected disabled vet (I got hurt, its not something I'm proud of).  Enlisting is something I did for my own reasons (wasn't drafted, wasn't even alive when there was a draft), and it's part of who I am, but it's not why you should buy my stuff.  You should buy my stuff because it's competitively priced and it's way better than the competition.  

Hipsters and old ladies like stories.  Some of those people have $$$$ to spend on the guy who took the longest to make their belt.  They gloat about it at afternoon tea with the other old bags they hang out with.  Because you don't fall for the craftsman's shtick doesn't mean it isn't working for them and producing sales.  The slow people's stuff is exclusive - they don't work fast enough to make a bunch of them.

[SolarLeatherMachines]

27 minutes ago, JimTimber said:

Veteran status isn't meant to differentiate quality.  We had each other's backs in the service and we have each other's backs as civilians.  It's a calling card letting other vets know we're on the same team.

I've had people say I should put more emphasis on the fact I'm a service connected disabled vet (I got hurt, its not something I'm proud of).  Enlisting is something I did for my own reasons (wasn't drafted, wasn't even alive when there was a draft), and it's part of who I am, but it's not why you should buy my stuff.  You should buy my stuff because it's competitively priced and it's way better than the competition.  

Hipsters and old ladies like stories.  Some of those people have $$$$ to spend on the guy who took the longest to make their belt.  They gloat about it at afternoon tea with the other old bags they hang out with.  Because you don't fall for the craftsman's shtick doesn't mean it isn't working for them and producing sales.  The slow people's stuff is exclusive - they don't work fast enough to make a bunch of them.

Exactly.  I've often heard from customers "I get a veteran's discount, right?"  Well, I'm a veteran, too, (Marines) does that mean I get to RAISE the price?   

[JimTimber]

Oh, I always ask about veterans discounts.  I'm not opposed to them, but there's also a bunch of sleazy people who abuse it and lie to get the benefit which is why I've never offered one myself.

In reality, we should just be tax exempt.  Now that'd be a kick-azz veteran's discount!

[Boriqua]

14 hours ago, Tallbald said:

and wonder now after several years if there's any future for me in emphasizing the differences in construction of my works from other lower priced Big Box Store inventory. I will not lower myself to disparage others works, and won't belittle other crafters efforts to try to elevate my own status

I dont know that you need to make a direct comparison between your work and what you consider inferior work in order to help people make a more informed decision. Its called marketing for a reason. I dont know how it happened but the larger bulk of what I make and sell has been holsters. I DO try and educate people on what a proper holster is and what they should look for sometimes in the body of my Ad's. I participate in a few gun forums because I like to shoot and I cant tell you how many holsters I see that people are paying good money for that have stitch lines 3/4 to 1 inch from the mold. That is just unacceptable and I dont have a problem telling people that it is something they should look at when purchasing a holster. Now .. perhaps like you .. I am not comfortable saying maker X's holsters suck because of this or that and mine are great because of the other but I think many people just dont know what they should be looking for. I swear so long as you can master boning and make your stuff from 6/7oz leather so you get some really awesome detail you can put that damn sew line 50 miles away and people will buy it. But I wont make something I don't believe in. Extolling the virtues of your product is never a bad thing. That is marketing. Why is your belt $100. If there is a compelling reason then I am reaching in my pocket.

I have a few pair of boots from Local boot guys .. Probably paid an extra $100 over buying something similar at Boot Barn but I like things made by a single craftsman that I can talk to and visit. Im willing to pay more for that.

On the other hand I will say what I used to say to guys that came to me for a raise and their reasons were often self centered ie: I just had a baby, I need a car .... I would reply .. how is that my or the companies problem? If your not making what you need then it may indeed be time to give it up.

Now having said all of that .. I am not in business. I am a hobby guy that makes some play money. I gave up on custom orders .... I was getting all sorts of emails requesting custom work, some of it involved as hell and I would quote it and never hear from them again. I still spent an hour going back and forth though and looking at pix and what have you. Now I just make what I feel like and put it up for sale at what I consider a reasonable price. I cant make enough fast enough! I only take on jobs now that I feel like taking and I quote a price and let it sit.

One last bit of perhaps useless advice. If indeed your product is the shizz but you are not finding the clientele you may be fishing in the wrong pond. Once upon a time I had nice luxury items. Wore a Panerai and it was one of a few watches I had at any given time. I wouldnt look for a watch strap for my $5000.00 watch on ebay. Look at some of the stuff you see YinTx post. Man oh man .. just exudes money and quality but .. CEO's and the people that can and will pay for something like that arent shopping ebay. Look harder at your market and where they are. Old motorcycle guys LOVE my stuff. Usually its because they remember saddlebags from yesteryear when you bought a set and it died with the bike or was passed on. I still get a good deal of them and love doing business with them. They grumble at the price sometimes on principle while they are reaching for their wallet!! Last guy threw me $150.00 tip on top of my price. The new cyclist that run out and buy the damn sportster at age 50 .. if it doesn't come from the Harley boutique they wont buy it. Cool .. I go to motorcycle events where there are some guys .. a bit rougher around the edges ... and they eat my stuff up. I know the guy with the Harley patches on his boots isnt my client.

Its marketing .. it takes some work. Its a new world order and if you arent the only blacksmith in town then you have to market and ... you may have to bite the bullet and price more competitively so long as you are competing with like quality items.

[Dwight]

One thing I have found that helps, . . . "Made in America, by Americans".  

While I do not post that phrase on my website, . . . the ol' Red, White, and Blue is prominently displayed on each page, . . . implying it without saying it.

I do my best to buy American when I can, . . . and there are a lot of others who do the same.

But again . . . it is marketing, . . . and you just have to learn how to market your product.  After a while, . . . if you are doing it right, . . . it'll work.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Sceaden]

I am still a newbie at leather, though I have sold about everything I have made to happy family and friends, but as a pricing manager for a 65+ year old hardware store I do believe that the story is important. Brand loyalty is worth a fortune so focus on excellent customer service and what makes you unique. There are a ton of people making products out there but if you want to command a good profit in today's growing hipster market, a godsend for leather workers, tell them why your product is awesome, or more accurately show them, beautiful photographs, presentation, website, etc, get them drooling over it, explain why you happen to also be awesome, traditional is becoming huge, and make sure you get as many reviews in plain sight as possible. 

The valuable retail market is swinging back to small brick and mortar and away from the big box and internet giants. Companies like Gerber are doing a full overhaul of their marketing, pricing, and packaging to place the emphasis on the small local guys and reaping huge profits.

The account manager for all of Gerber USA explained it this way: The millennial consumer today depends on the following to make his purchase. 

Product recognition, often in the form of a video, movie, favorite blogger, extra.

Online reviews, is it worth it, do other people like it, is it the best for the money, how was it made, where is it from, is it eco friendly, sustainable, etc. 

Purchase in person at a local dealer, preferably family owned, etc, he wants to see it on the shelf, handle it, talk to a knowledgeable salesman and complete the purchase journey by walking away with a quality product without buyer's remorse. 

My brother makes more than most the people I know and he recently told me that price is one of the last considerations when he is making a purchase that is meant to last. Relationship with the seller and confidence in the manufacturer are the biggest factors for him. 

And no, most of us don't sell via brick and mortar but places like Etsy, other higher end handmade places, or a really well built website are about as close as we can get. 

But at the end of the day. KNOW YOUR CUSTOMER. 

And never be afraid to charge what the product is worth, but make sure you explain why it is worth that. And let's be honest, a lot of customers will walk away, but if you want to make the whole handmade thing work out for you then don't race to the bottom of the barrel, the big guys will crush you. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Sceaden

[Wulfing]

In the advert, after the description put a 'points of quality' list. with the words 'points of quality' at the top.  Bullet points like . 2 lines of hand stitching, leather washer between the leather & the snap to stop the snap biting into the leather and tearing over time, Hand dyed, Number of hours worked on it, How the edges are finished, Solid copper hardware, type of thread used & why, Link to a basic video (shorter the better 1 minute just looking at the product from different angles in good light with a nice background), How long the leather could last with proper care, Pro oil dyes rather than cheaper spirit dyes, How the leather is finished & why. etc etc