Handmade machine stitched?

[bikermutt07]

That was a far cry from a ramble, @Mark842. Good stuff there.

[robs456]

29 minutes ago, Mark842 said:

I'm rambling!

No, please do go on. There's some great stuff in your post. 

[Fire88]

@robs456 I guess my point in the comparison was I could have use ads and hand planes and spoke spoke shaves and hand drills to build my furniture, yet I decided to use tools to speed up the process. If I built it for a customer and used the old ways I would never see an hourly wage I could live on. 

I think there is a difference in marketing a handmade vs handmade and stitched item. I don’t think either is wrong and if you can get the same price of a machine stitched piece as a hand stitched one then good on you cause you’ve built your brand well. 

We see it everyday and don’t realize it that a mass produced item costs the same as a hand built one. My example here is kitchen cabinets I can give you a custom built kitchen for close to the same price as any commercial cabinet store yet give you a better product and design. 

While I'm still new to the leather world and learning a ton especially on pricing items, I truly appreciate these conversations.

[garypl]

1 hour ago, nstarleather said:

Machines are much less forgiving than hand stitching when you're learning.  

Well said Mike - I have a few scrap projects in the bin as a result of my machine sewing education!  Only takes a second to hit the wrong pedal and see your project go south with stitches where they are not supposed to be!

By the way, I received the black leather scraps I bought from you and I am pleased with my purchase!

Gary

[OLDNSLOW]

I'll be honest here I didn't read everything, but don't we sell the SIZZLE AND NOT the STEAK?  hand sewn, machine sewn, but feel the SUPPLENESS of that rich leather? 

Or am I wrong good night.

[bikermutt07]

A lot of good points here. 

[DJole]

5 hours ago, OLDNSLOW said:

I'll be honest here I didn't read everything, but don't we sell the SIZZLE AND NOT the STEAK?  hand sewn, machine sewn, but feel the SUPPLENESS of that rich leather? 

Or am I wrong good night.

What first came to my mind when I read this was this: 

 

[updn]

I agree with alpha and Mark.....it really also does depend on the customer and if they understand or appreciate the strong...almost indestructible hand stitching.  I have included a picture of a luggage piece of mine...it is all hand stitched with saddlers stitch but because it having many double stitch lines the complete bag would take me 7 hours approx...the black vegtan was also hand dyed. It retails at €450 and I sell mainly on hip markets and nobody would buy it at that price....someone said to me they would not expect tp pay that price at a market...but if I machine sew it it would probably take me 4 hours and cost €320... now that price is more easy to sell. I think the beauty is to emulate the hand stitching as much as possible with a machine so the look is similar..I still will close the stitching lines with backwards saddlers stitch for strength...now I still consider this then to be hand made..will be using or getting a cobra 4 soon so it will also manage stitching with a thickness of yarn of 277 and 346.. and intend to use a rounded needle to have a slightly slanted look...

[Dun]

^that is beautiful. And luggage is one of the few things the durability of handstitching would be worth spending more on.

Not the original topic of calling machine stitched hand made or not but I do think about this stuff:

Leather is an odd thing these days. Do I need a dopp kit that will last me 40 years if I recondition it every 6 months? Will I pay more for the industrable nature of handstitching in a zippered pen case as opposed to a machine stitched one? 

Anything I personally am hand stitching, probably doesn't NEED to be industructable. 

I don't have a machine but I shouldn't be inflating the cost of an eye glasses sleeve because it has industructable saddle stitching. It's not like a bifold wallet NEEDS to be strong enough to keep me from falling off a horse like saddle stitched stuff is designed to.

[RockyAussie]

23 minutes ago, Dun said:

^that is beautiful. And luggage is one of the few things the durability of handstitching would be worth spending more on.

Not the original topic of calling machine stitched hand made or not but I do think about this stuff:

Leather is an odd thing these days. Do I need a dopp kit that will last me 40 years if I recondition it every 6 months? Will I pay more for the industrable nature of handstitching in a zippered pen case as opposed to a machine stitched one? 

Anything I personally am hand stitching, probably doesn't NEED to be industructable. 

I don't have a machine but I shouldn't be inflating the cost of an eye glasses sleeve because it has industructable saddle stitching. It's not like a bifold wallet NEEDS to be strong enough to keep me from falling off a horse like saddle stitched stuff is designed to.

Well put.

[YinTx]

I am sensing a red herring.  Question is, should someone who machine stitches call something handmade?  When we discuss whether or not the customer will pay for the hand stitching, and then substituting the machine stitching for the hand stitch because the customer will not, does not answer the question.

If you study and apply the continuous process of improvement (kaizen), you work to eliminate waste (muda).  One of those wastes you may recall is incorrect processing.  One way to identify that is to see what a customer will pay for.  If a customer won't pay for hand stitching or skiving by round knife, you should not be doing it.  Hence no eyeglasses sleeve or dopp kit needs to be saddle stitched for indestructible qualities. No disagreement from me.

Even to some extent, you will not get disagreement from me if you machine stitch and call it hand crafted.

Where you will get disagreement from me is when one markets to one's customers an item as hand stitched or saddle stitched when it is clearly machine stitched.  A deceiving tactic I have seen more than once, where the individual selling the item is banking on the buyer not knowing the difference.  Not cool to the customer, not cool to the other craftsmen who are doing the saddle stitching, and able to market it to a customer base that is willing to pay for the difference due to aesthetics, strength, or sheer desire to say they had something hand stitched for them.  This is like saying an item is hand tooled leather when it has been embossed.

Whether or not machine stitching requires skill is also a red herring.  Yes machine stitching does require skill.  Does that mean you can call it a hand stitched or saddle stitched item?  I would say no.

"Handmade" is difficult to quantify.  Thus the ability to answer the question "should someone who machine stitches call something handmade?" is equally difficult  if not impossible to answer.  Thus, those willing to market machine stitched as handmade will meet little resistance, at least from me, even if I feel it to be misleading.  Market machine stitched items as hand stitched or saddle stitched though, and I'll call you out.

If you want to say you fed an item into a machine by hand, I'd still argue the point.  https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/hand-stitched

states "stitched by hand rather than machine."

If you want to be strict about it, "handmade" is defined as made with tools and not machines.  I'd say a sewing machine is a... well, a machine!  https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/handmade

My .02 input to the conversation, worth as they say, the price paid, and only intended for conversation.

YinTx

[YinTx]

BTW, I failed to mention, but that "Artisanal Firewood"  made my day!  I want his customers.. willing to pay over $400 for kindling.   sellin the sizzle, sellin the sizzle!

YinTx

[Dun]

All very good points yin, I was just bringing up the point of assigning values and price tags is not as clear cut as to be defined in how something was stitched.

That "saddle stitching should always be priced more than machine stitching" may not always apply.

Not where the topic started but I saw enough of that subject change to put together 2 cents of my own.

[YinTx]

31 minutes ago, Dun said:

That "saddle stitching should always be priced more than machine stitching" may not always apply.

 

This is true for more reasons than one.  And one of the reasons why I will be machine stitching more in the future.

YinTx

[robs456]

5 hours ago, Dun said:

It's not like a bifold wallet NEEDS to be strong enough to keep me from falling off a horse like saddle stitched stuff is designed to.

Actually, the number one complaint I hear from all kinds of people is that their wallet is breaking apart. And it's always the seams, whether it's a cheap Chinese/Indian/whathaveyou or luxuriuos LV wallet.
But I do get your point, it's not safety related like with saddles. Unless you're James Bond or in some kind of a freak accident...

[robs456]

3 hours ago, YinTx said:

If you want to be strict about it, "handmade" is defined as made with tools and not machines.  I'd say a sewing machine is a... well, a machine!

Yes, that's what I tried to convey above in the woodworking comparison.
While electrical tools are used they're still just tools allowing YOU to do the work better, while the sewing machine does the work for you.
 

 

[updn]

Good points yin and dun....yes I would definitely not called a machine stitched item hand stitched or saddle stitched that definitely is misleading...and of course you have to point out the advantages and disadvantages of hand or machine stitched to your customers as there mostly is little knowledge of these advantage or disadvantages...and of course a saddle stitched item must cost more.....a luggage bag shows a very big price difference but maybe a wallet that is hand stitched take less time, is of course more durable and less costly because of little sewing time...anyway the saddle stitching is so relaxing.....I think and you are even more pleased with a good outcome....I prefer using my barry king awl and doing ever stitch individually...

Charles

[robs456]

3 hours ago, YinTx said:

"Handmade" is difficult to quantify.  Thus the ability to answer the question "should someone who machine stitches call something handmade?" is equally difficult  if not impossible to answer.

This discussion has been great for me, as in kind of changing my views on things a bit. 

Per definition, if someone uses a sewing machine on any item, that item is not handmade. Not to a 100%, whatever you say about all the other steps in the process.
But reading the replies in this thread I now do think it might be OK in certain cases. But how to quantify and draw a limit?
Is it handmade if machines are used for 10% or less of the SCOPE of a project? Or 10% or less of the TIME taken on a project? Or 49%? Or is it due to the look of it, like mentioned above where a machine stitch was used for all hidden seams and hand stitching was used for the visible seams?

Like YinTx says, it's difficult to the point of impossible to set a limit once you stray from the 'all or nothing' mindset.
I think it would be up to the customer to observe and understand and to the maker to present and market honestly (like not saying it's saddle stitched when it's lock stitched for example).    

Personally I think it's OK to say a carved long wallet or MC seat is hand made even if machine sewn, but calling a simple cardholder -where there's four pieces sewn together by machine and then machine edged- handmade is stretching it too much no matter how many hands were guiding the machines.

 

[tomsmith85717]

6 hours ago, YinTx said:

 

If you study and apply the continuous process of improvement (kaizen), you work to eliminate waste (muda).  One of those wastes you may recall is incorrect processing.  One way to identify that is to see what a customer will pay for.  If a customer won't pay for hand stitching or skiving by round knife, you should not be doing it.  Hence no eyeglasses sleeve or dopp kit needs to be saddle stitched for indestructible qualities. No disagreement from me.

 

 

YinTx

If our paths cross let me offer to buy you a drink and have a  chat.

I struggle with this my self. I will absolutely say I hand craft everything I do. but I machine stitch which deters me from saying hand made. I dont think that my lack of hand stitching degrades my product. in fact it probably makes it better. I still have a hard time between hand made and machine stitched. Where I do see a clear line is between slave/coerced labor and that of an artisan. I dont make mine to simply meet a piece rate. I make mine to fulfill my vision in the way I want it to be constructed . Could I farm my stuff out to India and say I design them my self sure but I couldnt sleep at night knowing what i did. I really think this is only  a leather worker problem or at least a leather snob problem. What if I laser cut everything either laser cut slits or pricking marks and then stitched them It would double the time could i double my price would I be able to  live off of them... I dont want to try or find out. I think I will stick to the term hand crafted.

[RockyAussie]

6 hours ago, YinTx said:

"Handmade" is difficult to quantify.  Thus the ability to answer the question "should someone who machine stitches call something handmade?" is equally difficult  if not impossible to answer.

This is true and I think the term "hand made" is not the bigger issue. I do a lot of work that many would call hand made, including myself, but I have never bothered to brand it that way, or even make such a claim. Making a product that looks and performs  better than another, and if  the cost is acceptable is more important in my world. The base product leather we work with could could rarely be called "Hand made". The tools whatever they are we use, are rarely "Hand made". You could forever argue what machine is acceptable to use and still call it "Hand made" but what a person wants and how well I can help them with that, is what keeps me and my business going.

[robs456]

12 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

The base product leather we work with could could rarely be called "Hand made". The tools whatever they are we use, are rarely "Hand made"

Does it matter? 
So a machine makes a canvas, and another makes a brush, is the art then machine made? Most would credit the artist for making the painting.
 

But if the same artist designs something in Illustrator and then print it out on a printer, did he then make a painting?

 

[tomsmith85717]

N

9 minutes ago, robs456 said:

Does it matter? 
So a machine makes a canvas, and another makes a brush, is the art then machine made? Most would credit the artist for making the painting.
 

But if the same artist designs something in Illustrator and then print it out on a printer, did he then make a painting?

 

No, they made digital art. but what you are really asking is their effort less valuable than someone who put brush to canvas and moved  paint around.  Hand  made is an inefficient thing of the past but what, where & how do we find the true value in our skill and craft  then translate that into a way for the customer to understand... that is the real crux of the question as anything else is just quantification of a buzz word.

Edited February 5, 2018 by tomsmith85717
deplorable keyboard on $200 laptop

[tomsmith85717]

31 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

This is true and I think the term "hand made" is not the bigger issue. I do a lot of work that many would call hand made, including myself, but I have never bothered to brand it that way, or even make such a claim. Making a product that looks and performs  better than another, and if  the cost is acceptable is more important in my world. The base product leather we work with could could rarely be called "Hand made". The tools whatever they are we use, are rarely "Hand made". You could forever argue what machine is acceptable to use and still call it "Hand made" but what a person wants and how well I can help them with that, is what keeps me and my business going.

And how you can authentically make beautiful things that help live better. I truly think that most people who are searching "hand made" things are really looking for things made to last that are also made with integrity and intention. When you see jeans for less than $30 you have to think who didnt get to eat so that I could get these at this price... sames goes for leather goods.  If our paths cross, I too would buy you a drink and offer an chat.

[robs456]

20 minutes ago, tomsmith85717 said:

but what you are really asking is their effort less valuable than someone who put brush to canvas and moved  paint around.

No I'm not, value isn't part of my post, it's about whether we should classify the work/product after how the material was made. The value is discussed elsewhere  above.

[tomsmith85717]

So then, no if any non hand tool is used it cant be hand made. Its that cut and dry. Or at least that is where any argument begins... anything after that just justifies ego and technicalities.  Unless some government out there has codified a quantifiable number, but if another government comes out with a different number then what? But what is hand made other than a value added proposition or something to say to make someone feel good? If it isnt a legal distinction?

 

I should point out I am sick with the flu, cant sleep and really enjoying the philosophy in action.

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by tomsmith85717