Handmade machine stitched?

[garypl]

3 minutes ago, alpha2 said:

It they'd said hand stitched, that would be different. 

If I roll out the hide, cut it out with a round knife, carve it or stamp it, as opposed to using an embossing machine, then dye it with a dauber, and buff it with a cloth, bevel the edges with a hand beveller, burnish it with a wooden burnisher by hand, then stitch it on a Cowboy 4500, you can bet it was hand made. Then machine stitched.

Good point alpha - I think there are many people who don’t know or don’t care whether a product is hand stitched or machine sewn!  Some might consider machine sewn to be stronger even though saddle stitching is normally more durable.  

Gary

[Mattsbagger]

I don't really understand how a machine burnisher is ok but sewing machine not. I hand stitch because I like the way it looks and like doing it. It reminded me of that YouTube video on "handmade firewood"

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Mattsbagger

[robs456]

14 minutes ago, Mattsbagger said:

I don't really understand how a machine burnisher is ok but sewing machine not. I hand stitch because I like the way it looks and like doing it. It reminded me of that YouTube video on "handmade firewood"

Didn't see that one. Is machine burnisher OK though? I have one, but now usually burnish by hand because why not!!

Matt S and alpha, nothing is wrong with machine stitching, just that by hand stitching you get it stronger and you'll get the look and 'skill' of the maker. Now a lot of people don't care about those things obviously or there would be no wally world etc. Is it ok to price machine stitched stuff at the same level as handmade do you think? 

Now I wouldn't, but I'm not making the 'rules', just trying to find them...

[billybopp]

2 hours ago, robs456 said:

I get your point but what do you say about the likes of hermes, 1 guy makes a kelly bag in about a week but they have 50 guys doing it? No machines except the clicker press. What if only the handles were made by only one guy? 

Hermes isn't going to tell you this, but they do in fact use sewing machines for the parts of the bag that aren't visible such as liners.  They DO hand sewing where it shows and makes a difference.  

I expect that handmade doesn't have a solid definition - hence you find people selling items made from Tandy kits on etsy and calling it handmade.  Bespoke tailors usually use machines, but there are a very few that hand sew at the very highest level, and some in-between that, like Hermes, use machines where the result isn't visible.  There is a difference to the trained eye, but most wouldn't notice it.

I think that leather is much the same way.  Handmade is fairly broad.  If I were selling handsewn, I'd state it and use it as a marketing tool.  Those that know the difference will understand what that really means - a generally superior product.   When it comes to cutting, burnishing, and many other operations, when making a standard product the leather doesn't care how it is cut or burnished.  There isn't any distinguishable difference, and where there is use the method that gives the result that you want and your customers want.  If an item is truly bespoke, then a cutting die isn't going to be the best solution, at least for parts of the product.

That's just my 2 cents - and that's probably about all that it's worth.

- Bill

[bikermutt07]

Lisa Sorrell uses a sewing machine for boot tops. I would say those boots are hand made.

People have expressed here before about...

How a market won't really bear a price difference in hand stitched vs. machine stitched.

Because at the end of the day, the end user doesn't know or care about the difference. They bought a hand made leather item that should last at least 2 generations (with care).

Machine or hand doesn't really lend itself to the end scenario.

That being said, you can inform and educate your audience. And maybe they will be willing to pay more for hand stitching, but the real argument boils down to how popular or "in" is your product.

When it comes to sales, the most experienced salesmen will sell on emotional connection. Not construction techniques.

One needs to sell the experience of having a favorite bag that only lasted 6 months compared to the bag that went on all the adventures with them, that now they can pass on to one of their children.

See the difference? Well made is well made. But the sale comes from connecting on the clients' level.

[garypl]

7 minutes ago, bikermutt07 said:

Lisa Sorrell uses a sewing machine for boot tops. I would say those boots are hand made.

People have expressed here before about...

How a market won't really bear a price difference in hand stitched vs. machine stitched.

Because at the end of the day, the end user doesn't know or care about the difference. They bought a hand made leather item that should last at least 2 generations (with care).

Machine or hand doesn't really lend itself to the end scenario.

That being said, you can inform and educate your audience. And maybe they will be willing to pay more for hand stitching, but the real argument boils down to how popular or "in" is your product.

When it comes to sales, the most experienced salesmen will sell on emotional connection. Not construction techniques.

One needs to sell the experience of having a favorite bag that only lasted 6 months compared to the bag that went on all the adventures with them, that now they can pass on to one of their children.

See the difference? Well made is well made. But the sale comes from connecting on the clients' level.

Well said Mutt - at the end of the day you explain the options to your customer and give them what they want!

[robs456]

25 minutes ago, garypl said:

Well said Mutt - at the end of the day you explain the options to your customer and give them what they want!

But do the customer know what they really want? I was told by the owner of a successful tannery in the US that the biggest market for handmade goods is Japan because they know and appreciate the value of handmade stuff. While the US and Europe is way behind, with the increasing hipster market leading the way. People look down on hipsters but really, these guys with their homemade beers, beets and funny hats really know what's up. Homemade and small scale FTW. Man, I wish I was young enough to be a hipster, maybe I can be a wannabe?

[bikermutt07]

8 minutes ago, robs456 said:

But do the customer know what they really want? I was told by the owner of a successful tannery in the US that the biggest market for handmade goods is Japan because they know and appreciate the value of handmade stuff. While the US and Europe is way behind, with the increasing hipster market leading the way. People look down on hipsters but really, these guys with their homemade beers, beets and funny hats really know what's up. Homemade and small scale FTW. Man, I wish I was young enough to be a hipster, maybe I can be a wannabe?

Well, all we can do is look back and see where we as a group let our market slip away.

There is a large time Gap in the domestic leather industry. From the 70s- to recently our market was allowed to be wooed away by cheaper import prices. Personally, I blame the jet set cocaine 80's. That's where everyone was supposed to be too rich to care about anything. 

Now we look to our current situation. People are starting to slowly wake up from the "disposable age". And this is where we can step up and educate the market.

Of course I could just be talking out of my butt. Opinions yet again.

[YinTx]

4 hours ago, robs456 said:

No machines except the clicker press.

Hermes does use machines.  Even on things you see.  Look at their watch strap making process youtube video:  machine stitched.  Clicked out.  

I was looking at one of their "L" shaped wallets online on their website the other day.  Clearly machine stitched, and not well I might add.  But still $600 for a flappy piece of leather. 

Many other high end fashion houses have their products made in Asia/China - think Burberry, LV, Dooney and Burke, etc.  

I have to point out my value added when I am talking to clients.  This means letting them know leather qualities/sourcing, thread, stitching quality, edge work, tooling qualities, customization available, etc.  If I don't then I'll be asked to compete with a WalMart product.  Or a high end fashion brand made on an assembly line.

YinTx

[Matt S]

1 hour ago, robs456 said:

nothing is wrong with machine stitching, just that by hand stitching you get it stronger and you'll get the look and 'skill' of the maker. Now a lot of people don't care about those things obviously or there would be no wally world etc.

I hear this repeated amongst the hobby leatherworking community a lot, and taken as gospel. I don't say this as a disparagement but simply as fact. I've said it many times myself. Under certain circumstances yes saddle stitching can be stronger than machine stitching. Perhaps when heavy stitchers first came out saddlers tried to emulate what they were doing by hand and found the machined seams lacking. However machine stitching is simply different. Good design and execution reflects this -- accounting for the different strengths and weaknesses of each construction technique.

I machine-stitch card pocket bottoms with TKT40 nylon thread. I could saddle-stitch it with 8-ply linen thread but it doesn't need that strength. What it does need is a seam that sits flat against the leather to allow a card to slide past it on both sides. TKT40 lock-stitched with a NM100 leather-point needle and 2mm stitch length allows me to do this. It also allows me to spend a lot less time per item, which brings down what I have to charge the customer. It is stronger than the situation requires and, for these reasons, better than hand stitching. Strength isn't everything.

Is it ok to price machine stitched stuff at the same level as handmade do you think?

As others have said above, "hand made" != "hand sewn". If I bought a "hand made" shirt I would not expect the seamstress to sit there for 12 hours with a needle and thread. If a cabinetmaker sold me a "hand made" box to keep my cufflinks in I would have no problem with his using a power sander. However if he advertised it as having "hand-cut dovetails" I would be very angry to find he'd done them with a router jig. Or he may use a comb joint or a locking mitre. The locking mitre may not be as strong as a dovetail but it would look cleaner, be faster to make and I would trust him to make it stronger than it needs to be to do the job. Task him to build me a box for transporting my fossil collection and I would not expect him to supply me a thing of balsa butt-jointed with hot-melt glue. I am paying for the seamstress or cabinetmaker's skill and experience at technical design, the materials used, their execution, their aesthetic sense and the convenience over doing it myself. The price will reflect this. So it is with what I sell.