Newbie with questions

[Tigdim]

Almost 2 years ago I started thinking my wife and I would like to get try our hand at leather-work. We bought 2 shoulders (7-8oz and 3-4 oz veg tan from local tandy-2 hours away,) some tools, some thread and then we got distracted with life; Adding a second bathroom in our basement, Baby #2, Remodeling the baby room... the list of projects goes on and on!

Now, I am in need of a new holster for my carry gun. My current setup has worked well enough for the last 5-6 years, but has warn some and the friction fit is no longer holding on to the gun as tightly as I like. I believe, part of the reason it has loosened up is that it is only 5-6 oz leather  holding a relatively heavy gun for its size. Springfield EMP 3". Rather than purchase a new holster I am going to make one out of the 7/8oz shoulder I have... then another, and another .... until get one that is functional and I am happy with it. Then I will most likely make one out of some black drum dyed leather. I really like black holsters and belts-and as I am just starting out, I am thinking it may be easier to use drum dyed rather than having to mess with dyes right away.

Are there any issues with using the "drum dyed skirting" vs the natural "tooling" leather? Using terms taken from W&C website as they will sell direct to customer in small quantities. 

I do have a pancake holster patter for my EMP. ( Thanks JLSleather !!!! )  IF I don't screw it up too bad I might just get a functional holster sooner than I think!

First off, what size oblong punch do I use for a 1.5" belt- its a double layer gun belt about .25" thick? (belt actually measures at 1.42" tall)  The JLSleather pattern has slots that measure 1.58" tall by .25". Is the 1.5" oblong punch what I need or do I need to step up to a 1 5/8" oblong punch to have a little extra room? I do want the belt to fit somewhat tightly in the slots but don't want it to be a battle it every morning and evening getting the holster on/off the belt. Or is this a non-issue because it will stretch / open up with use? (old holster fit looser than I would like as the slots are a full/strong 2" tall and 1/2" - 5/8" wide- could have stretched some over time as well. ) 

I am also getting confused- or should I say... I'm finding conflicting information on holster interior and liners, whether here or on Holster manufacture websites. The search function here is great.... just so much information for a beginner to take in!!!

Some say flesh side is fine for the inside holster- other say use a liner; the flesh side of the leather holds dirt and debris and is hard on gun finishes.  Some say suede is the best liner, while others say suede holds on to dirt and debris making it hard on gun finishes. And still others say veg tan grain side in makes the best interior for a holster whether flesh out or double layered veg tan, to have grain side in and out.... looking for some guidance on this. Is it all personal preference? This is really a question I need a long term answer too, as I am not planning on lining the first holster just going to have flesh side in, but when I get to the final Black version I may want a liner or go double layer with grain inside and out. 

Aaron

 

[bikermutt07]

In answer to your gun being in the holster, flesh side, grain side, suede, whatever..... It doesn't matter. It will all be hard on the finish.

Most of the pros line using grain side out laminating. But, you don't have too.

I haven't tried any drum dyed skirting. I don't know if it will wet mold but I think it would.

[JLSleather]

Sounds like you gave this some thought  

I've made about a JILLION holsters with W/C drum dyed skirting - works great.  It's not as "hard' as Hermann Oak when set up, so it's different but not better or worse - just a different flavor.  I always have black - since those Glock boys love black, no point dyeing all of that one at a time.

Not sure why you found my pattern 1.58" slots.. they should be inch anna half. Maybe printed large, or maybe just thickness of the lines?  My punch is 1.5" x .25", and you may gain a little when burnishing the slots (i make a point of staying close to that size - I hate when they "rock").

Finally, I try to END UP WITH about 8 oz total thickness MOST of the time.  Larger firearms get heavier leather, pocket models are often 6/7.  I don't use "suede" as most people think of it, meaning chrome tanned.  Biggest reason for that is it doesn't form.

As a rule, two layers of 4 oz is fine. 

Or when I tool it, I likely use 5/6 lined with 2/3 (the revolver pictured left was 6/7 cow lined with 2/3 goat, if I remember right).

The Glock 19 on the right was 4/5 lined with 3/4.

 

 

OH, in WI, the fit of your holster getting loose could well be from freeze/thaw/freeze/thaw

We'd know better if we had a pic ...

Edited March 15, 2018 by JLSleather

[chiefjason]

I don't line my holsters.  Anything you put a gun in will eventually wear the finish.  I have a Sig that has serious wear on the finish from my t shirts.  Nothing else touches those spots.

 If you do line a holster it usually makes a stiffer holster.  

[Dwight]

There used to be a fellow on here, . . . have not seen him in a couple of years, . . . was in really bad health last time we corresponded, . . . his persona was Katsass.

He hand sewed all of his holsters from veggie tan, then dyed them or sat them out in the desert sun to tan to the color he wanted.

Here is a post showing a holster I made very similar to JLSLeather's above:  http://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/69512-designed-by-katsass-executed-by-dwight/?tab=comments#comment-454607

(Katsass made some really good looking stuff, . . . take a half hour and use the search function for him, . . . you'll see some neat work.)

For that particular holster, . . . I gave it a good coat of Resolene when I made it, . . . and it is one tough, hard, holster.  It is 4 layers of leather bonded flesh side to flesh side.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Hildebrand]

Tigdim,

If you really want an education on holsters I suggest doing what I am in the process of.  I am on page 82 of the 273 in this topic.  I have read every thread on holsters and most of those on knife sheaths and other projects.  The amount of information is amazing, some of the members no longer post or just sporadically but there are tons of holsters to look at and compare to the advice given.  The only downer is the posts with photobucket pictures, the pictures are no longer available.  I plan to read all 273 pages, I have learned a ton, I thought I had a basic understanding after making a few holsters based of the instructions in Al Stohlmams how to make holsters book.  Man was I wrong, just what I have learned from this forum so far makes me realize I wasn't even up to Newbie status when I started reading.

Todd

[Tigdim]

Thanks for the insight guys, 

JLS- I will double check the print off I used... I know I checked the scale on the first one I printed, but the second one I printed... I am not sure, and I will double checked. Cut up the first one transferring it to card stock. IN either case I will just make sure I make the slots 1.5" by .25" I can always open them up a little bit if needed. 

Dwight, thanks for reminding me of User- Katsass. I have a few threads with his work bookmarked... things that I liked and would like to "borrow" something from. I also have a few older threads with your work bookmarked... I would like to eventually make one of your Cactus style holsters for a close friend of mine. He got me over the hump of being scared to modify my own guns. Helped me re-build/improve my deer rifles accuracy: bed action, float barrel install a Timney trigger. Took it from 2.5" groups (5 shots) at 100 yards to 1" groups with factory ammo. With reloads I can Knock on the door of a 5/8" group (It shoots 3/4" groups very consistently.) Seams silly now, after all the work I have done to other guns, including building my own 1911... but sometimes you just needs a little guidance/push to get over that feeling of doom every time you think, "What if I mess it up?" 

I was looking at the patterns I have last night, and it appears I have a 50/50 pattern.  I am also going to play with the card stock and see if I can figure something out that will be more like a 80/20. The search for a 80/20 holster pattern is what originally brought me to this site a few years ago! 

http://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/64142-holster-patterns/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-445609

Now for my next questions, These all come from reading in "The Art of Hand Sewing Leather" 

How many threads per inch/ What size over-stitch wheel do you suggest? and what size thread? Waxed nylon/poly? And as long as we are on the topic of thread... From reading in the 2, AL Stohlman books I have - it appears He was not a fan of pre-waxed thread... What do you guys use on your holsters for Threads per inch, thread size, and what kind of thread?

I am not sure where on this site I found them, but I was thinking of ordering from "Maine Thread Company" as I like to order from American businesses. Anyone have any experience with them? 

Thanks again, 

Aaron

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Tigdim
formatting correction, spelling

[Tigdim]

5 minutes ago, Hildebrand said:

Tigdim,

If you really want an education on holsters I suggest doing what I am in the process of.  I am on page 82 of the 273 in this topic.  I have read every thread on holsters and most of those on knife sheaths and other projects.  The amount of information is amazing, some of the members no longer post or just sporadically but there are tons of holsters to look at and compare to the advice given.  The only downer is the posts with photobucket pictures, the pictures are no longer available.  I plan to read all 273 pages, I have learned a ton, I thought I had a basic understanding after making a few holsters based of the instructions in Al Stohlmams how to make holsters book.  Man was I wrong, just what I have learned from this forum so far makes me realize I wasn't even up to Newbie status when I started reading.

Todd

Todd,

Funny you should mention that. I have not gone through everything, but I have been going over older stuff, doing searches on topics, and bookmarking pages with information/Ideas/photos that interest me or I think may become pertinent later. This site has a vast supply of information. I have also read 2 Stohlman books, read on many production and custom holster maker websites, some custom knife makers forums where they also make their own sheathes, and some on the holster sections of gun forums. There is lots of information outside of this site as well, but I have to say this forum is the best source of information I can find for leatherwork, with many people willing to help not just argue with one another. 

One of the problems I am finding, is that on just about any topic, you can find opposing views. Method 1 works for person A, but does not work for person B. Person B likes method 2. While person C has had success with both method 1 & method 2. While person D is looking for new method 3 as they do not like the results from Method 1 or 2! Good for research, but hard as a beginner, as I do not know what I do not know, so I don't know what will work for me... but most of the time I relinquish those debates too... it appears to work both ways just have to figure out which way works BEST for me.

Its lots of fun... I like reading/learning/researching thing thoroughly before I jump in. 

[Dwight]

FWIW, my holsters and belts are all done on a Tippmann Boss, . . . with the longest stitch length I can get on the machine, . . . which averages something in the 5 1/2 SPI.

Thread, . . . 346 bought at Tandy store.   I believe it is a poly thread, . . . the nice thing about it is when it is cut, . . . I can hit the end with a BIC lighter, . . . it melts and disappears, but creates a little ball like on the end of it, . . . keeps it from getting pulled through.

Tandy used to sell a waxed thread that I truly enjoyed using, . . . if I had known they were going to abandon it, . . . I would have bought 10 spools, . . . 

It somehow did a better job, . . . I'm not all into how it did it, . . . it just did.  Wish I could get some more of it, . . . but all they have now is dry and while it works, it sometimes just wants to be a pain, . . . and it IS a pain when it wants to be.

EDIT:  forgot to mention, you said you were doing a 50/50 pancake.  Some day when you feel like experimenting, go for a flat backed pancake.  I personally choose flat backed holsters for CCW over any of the others.

Most of my holster making technique I borrowed from looking at Milt Sparks holsters, . . . I would not make a copy of one of their designs, . . . but I have let their ideas influence what I do, . . . and so far it has worked really well.  

Most of their CCW holsters are also flat backed.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited March 15, 2018 by Dwight

[JLSleather]

I use nylon thread MOSTLY (and a bit of poly cuz I had to know for myself).  Don't think there's a big difference.  "Supposedly", the poly is more resistant to UV damage, but how often is a concealed holster in the sunlight?   By the time the thread even begins to be 'damaged", the holster (and maybe the gun) would usually be replaced, and if not, send it back and I'll sew it with new thread for free

I like 6 per inch on smaller (thinner) stuff, 5 - 5.5 on the larger ones, and usually I use 277 or 346 size thread, which I think stohlman called 4-cord and 5-cord.  I don't wax any of it.

This was done to show the effect of different needles.  Same thread (5-cord), same leather, same settings, but the needle change affects the finished look.

This is a zoomed view showing 4-cord thread at 6 per inch, natural thread in natural leather.  For scale, this is up against a Sig 938 (pointed to the right).

 

 

 

 

And this is just a "tip"... if you're using a pattern you cut out, cut on the OUTSIDE of teh line -- tehn you can save the pattern piece, and use teh CUTOUT on the leather, so you can see the leather you are cutting out.  Only takes one time cutting out a piece with an unacceptable mark on it to remember that one.

[Tigdim]

Thanks guys, 

I will order some 346 nylon thread. 

Forgive my ignorance, but what needle was used for the Top row of stitching? That one looks better than the one below it too me... Looks like you have it marked #25 S (346)

JLS, 

I must be a bit slow... I have seen you post that last tip at least once before (could be 2 or 3  times), I just now realized what you are saying!!! Spray adhesive the pattern to the card stock, cut out the middle, and use the outside for the pattern! Wow... I have no idea why it took me so long to get it, but that makes perfect sense. 

 

2 hours ago, Dwight said:

EDIT:  forgot to mention, you said you were doing a 50/50 pancake.  Some day when you feel like experimenting, go for a flat backed pancake.  I personally choose flat backed holsters for CCW over any of the others.

Most of my holster making technique I borrowed from looking at Milt Sparks holsters, . . . I would not make a copy of one of their designs, . . . but I have let their ideas influence what I do, . . . and so far it has worked really well.  

Most of their CCW holsters are also flat backed.

May God bless,

Dwight

Hahaha... your "New Shield Holster" is one of the ones I bookmarked... My father has a Shield 9mm. I am thinking something similar will make a great gift for him! He has a clip on Galco "stow and go" that He uses when he is not in a suit at Church, but finds it very uncomfortable.

[JLSleather]

30 minutes ago, Tigdim said:

Spray adhesive the pattern to the card stock, cut out the middle, and use the outside for the pattern! Wow... I have no idea why it took me so long to get it, but that makes perfect sense. 

OR, you could take teh file to a print shop and have them print a few on 80 lb or 100lb stock, then it's a done deal.  Using the OUTER of the pattern lets you see the piece you'll end up with.

 

31 minutes ago, Tigdim said:

Forgive my ignorance, but what needle was used for the Top row of stitching? That one looks better than the one below it too me... Looks like you have it marked #25 S (346)

That's a SIZE 25 needle with an "S" point.  346 is the thread size used.  The S point makes a different "hole", so it makes it appear that the stitches are spaced more (they aren't) because the hole is longer and not filled in.  The other is also a SIZE 25, but with an "LL" point (which I prefer).  More like a hand awl would make, keeps the stitching line straight (no sissy angled lacey lookin stuff) and fills the hole as you go.  Leaves the leather seam stronger.

[JLSleather]

There's about a zillion types of needles - these are just some I have.  I MUCH prefer teh LL point,  but i got what they had in the size 23 at the time, and the D is similar (I have since bought #25 in LL point, and these have been around a while).

Somewhere around here there's a pdf file explaining this much further, but I just know what I like.

I haven't found "diamond" point needles smaller than #23 for the 441 style machine, and I have not needed anything larger than a #26.  Smaller needles are available for other style machines - I know I have used #16 with a flatbed.

More info than that, check with Bob at teh red link below ...

[Tigdim]

I will be using a hand awl, and stitching as laid out in Al Stohlmans books. Are those needles for machines? If so that is where my ignorance is coming from... I have only been searching for information on harness needles... seems like sizes 000 to 8 are the ones I have seen most.

If I can find an old post by Katsass, that I read a while back, I think he tells everyone what he uses, for hand stitching. 

[Tigdim]

Hoping to make my stitching pony this weekend, if all goes well. I will be doing some practice stitching early next week!

Going to make a variant of the one in the back of "The Art of Hand sewing Leather" by Stohlman.

[Dwight]

1 hour ago, Tigdim said:

Hoping to make my stitching pony this weekend, if all goes well. I will be doing some practice stitching early next week!

Going to make a variant of the one in the back of "The Art of Hand sewing Leather" by Stohlman.

Now this is going to rankle some feathers , . . . and it is just too bad.  I'm just plain lazy, . . . do not like to do any extra work that I can figure a way around or to get out of.

That is why I have a Tippmann Boss sewing machine, . . . "Hands are for hamburgers, . . . sewing machines are for stitching".

But if you don't have the machine yet, . . . this is a down and dirty way to save yourself some grief.

If you have a small drill press, . . . or one of those $20 things that hold a hand drill and work like a drill press, . . . drill a 3/8 inch hole in a piece of plywood about a foot square, . . . tape it down so the hole is where the drill would be, . . . chuck up your awl blade in the press, . . . run your stitch wheel so you know where they need to be punched, . . . use the drill press to punch the holes.  Take a piece of duct tape and tape your chuck so it does not turn on you, . . . or just eyeball it every time you get ready to drop it through.

# 1:  it is a super whole bunch easier

# 2:  it is easier to see where you are punching because your hand is not in the way

# 3:  the holes are absolutely 100% straight up and down (otherwise the back looks somewhere between "not perfect" and "downright shabby")

# 4:  you can punch all the holes for a project, . . . take your awl, your needle and thread and go over to the couch, . . . turn on your favorite TV show, . . . sew and watch the boob tube at the same time.

AND, . . . it is so much easier on the hands.

Also, . . . if you want a bit of a fancy stitch, . . . turn the awl blade about 30 degrees, . . . and it gives a bit of a rope looking effect to your stitching.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Northmount]

3 hours ago, Tigdim said:

I will be using a hand awl, and stitching as laid out in Al Stohlmans books. Are those needles for machines? If so that is where my ignorance is coming from... I have only been searching for information on harness needles... seems like sizes 000 to 8 are the ones I have seen most.

If I can find an old post by Katsass, that I read a while back, I think he tells everyone what he uses, for hand stitching. 

The needle information from JLS is all for machine stitching.

Tom

[JLSleather]

if you can find a '2' harness needle should work.  I have used 4's but you have to mess with the ends of the thread a bit to get it through the eye smoothly.  I don't know if I've ever seen an 8, and a 0 or above is fine if you need a pry bar.

I wouldn't worry about asking questions -- nobody was born knowing this stuff, and hopefully some folks will save you the trouble and expense of repeating mistakes they already made.

[RockyAussie]

9 hours ago, Dwight said:

Now this is going to rankle some feathers , . . . and it is just too bad.  I'm just plain lazy, . . . do not like to do any extra work that I can figure a way around or to get out of.

That is why I have a Tippmann Boss sewing machine, . . . "Hands are for hamburgers, . . . sewing machines are for stitching".

But if you don't have the machine yet, . . . this is a down and dirty way to save yourself some grief.

If you have a small drill press, . . . or one of those $20 things that hold a hand drill and work like a drill press, . . . drill a 3/8 inch hole in a piece of plywood about a foot square, . . . tape it down so the hole is where the drill would be, . . . chuck up your awl blade in the press, . . . run your stitch wheel so you know where they need to be punched, . . . use the drill press to punch the holes.  Take a piece of duct tape and tape your chuck so it does not turn on you, . . . or just eyeball it every time you get ready to drop it through.

# 1:  it is a super whole bunch easier

# 2:  it is easier to see where you are punching because your hand is not in the way

# 3:  the holes are absolutely 100% straight up and down (otherwise the back looks somewhere between "not perfect" and "downright shabby")

# 4:  you can punch all the holes for a project, . . . take your awl, your needle and thread and go over to the couch, . . . turn on your favorite TV show, . . . sew and watch the boob tube at the same time.

AND, . . . it is so much easier on the hands.

Also, . . . if you want a bit of a fancy stitch, . . . turn the awl blade about 30 degrees, . . . and it gives a bit of a rope looking effect to your stitching.

May God bless,

Dwight

Hey Dwight ...I just thought I would add a little to this as I have used your answer here in a different post http://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/79982-braided-dog-leashes/?tab=comments#comment-534074

There is some more detail in that post but in case it helps, here are some pics here that should tell the story . Note that with this set up you can easily set whatever hole or needle spacing you want and get at the same distance from the edge consistently. Brian

 

[Hildebrand]

Another quick way to transfer patterns is to print them onto the clear overhead transparencies.  This lets you see the leather underneath and mark you cutting and stitching lines with a molding tool and it re usable.

[chiefjason]

18 hours ago, Dwight said:

Now this is going to rankle some feathers , . . . and it is just too bad.  I'm just plain lazy, . . . do not like to do any extra work that I can figure a way around or to get out of.

That is why I have a Tippmann Boss sewing machine, . . . "Hands are for hamburgers, . . . sewing machines are for stitching".

But if you don't have the machine yet, . . . this is a down and dirty way to save yourself some grief.

If you have a small drill press, . . . or one of those $20 things that hold a hand drill and work like a drill press, . . . drill a 3/8 inch hole in a piece of plywood about a foot square, . . . tape it down so the hole is where the drill would be, . . . chuck up your awl blade in the press, . . . run your stitch wheel so you know where they need to be punched, . . . use the drill press to punch the holes.  Take a piece of duct tape and tape your chuck so it does not turn on you, . . . or just eyeball it every time you get ready to drop it through.

# 1:  it is a super whole bunch easier

# 2:  it is easier to see where you are punching because your hand is not in the way

# 3:  the holes are absolutely 100% straight up and down (otherwise the back looks somewhere between "not perfect" and "downright shabby")

# 4:  you can punch all the holes for a project, . . . take your awl, your needle and thread and go over to the couch, . . . turn on your favorite TV show, . . . sew and watch the boob tube at the same time.

AND, . . . it is so much easier on the hands.

Also, . . . if you want a bit of a fancy stitch, . . . turn the awl blade about 30 degrees, . . . and it gives a bit of a rope looking effect to your stitching.

May God bless,

Dwight

I only hand stitch.  This is exactly what I do for my stitch holes.  And I don't use a stitching pony.  I just hold the holster and stitch it.  Usually while in bed with a drink watching a movie.  lol

My only recommendation would be to lay a thin piece of cardboard under the leather.  Sometimes the hole for the awl will imprint on the leather.  

I use 346 thread and 00 needles.  Fingerless gloves for pulling tension so you don't get cut, I use original Mecanix gloves with the thumb and pointer cut out and the rest intact for pulling.  Small pliers for back stitching and tight spots.  A home made stitching palm for pushing the needle.  

[Josh Ashman]

When I hand stitched my process was somewhat similar. Instead of a drill press (don't have one) I used a regular awl blade and haft handle but I did "pre-stab" all my holes. I'd place one of those rubber "poundo" boards from Tandy over a cutting board and stab the holes straight down. the poundo board is basically just rubber and is roughly 1/4" thick. It kept my awl blade from going too deep and the cutting board kept it from getting dull too quick. Once the holes were stabbed I'd stitch it up using a saddle stitch (2 needles). I did make a home made stitching horse that I used all the time, but before I built it I got by with holding whatever I was sewing. To me, using the horse was faster because I could use both hands to stitch. Light leather gloves with a doubled up palm to keep fingers from getting sliced by the thread when pulling tight and for pushing the needle through. Finger tips and thumb tips cut off on both gloves for increased dexterity. 

Hand stitching holsters isn't bad at all. Hand stitching saddle skirts is not that fun!

Good luck with your project! 

Josh

[Tigdim]

Dwight, 

I have no issues with your method, it is a great idea! I would be able to set it up so there is a stop, pressing the awl to the same depth every time, can easily follow your stitching groove and keep everything straight! You also get the mechanical advantage of the press, it so should be less physically demanding. Only problem I have, is that I do not have a drill press.  

Only thing I need for the stitching horse is a little bit of hardware... a hinge really. I think, I have everything else. So a few hour of work on my part and I will have something that will work for stitching... for now.

A drill press is on the list of wants, but its behind putting a sub-panel the our detached garage. Currently, the entire garage; lights and outlets are on one 10 amp circuit, run to the garage on 14 gauge wire. This is so I can run power tools in the garage without the lights going out! I currently have to run an extension cord from in the house out to the garage. 

 

Aaron

[Dwight]

Actually, Aaron, . . . a full fledged drill press would not be needed if you have a good 1/4 inch drill (or a busted one for that matter).

Every spring when my buddy and I start out on our yard sale escapades, . . . invariably we will see one or two of these (or very similar) units out there for $5, . . . $2, . . . or something similar.  They cinch down on the neck of the of the hand drill and make it a kinda sorta drill press, . . . but would be perfect for your use.

Too bad you  can't tie a rope to your garage and drag it down here, . . . we could wire that puppy up in a Saturday morning, . . . and you would be "on your way" so to speak.

I've got to do the same to mine, . . . but it ain't happening until the outside temperature is equal to or above my age, . . . and I was born in 1944.

Take a look at this:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bench-Drill-Press-Stand-Single-Clamp-Base-Frame-Electric-Hand-Drill-Holder/382301724943?hash=item5902f5610f:g:8AoAAOSwb9BaohvL

May God bless,

Dwight

[JLSleather]

https://www.harborfreight.com/8-in-5-speed-bench-drill-press-60238.html

Watch their ads, you may find a coupon to save even more on this.  At this price, if it fell apart in a year who would care?!@!