Crazy stitching

[Ferg]

I know your frustration. My first machine came from an "Outsider". It had zilch adjustments made for leather. 

Wiz talked me through many problems plus I love to see how machinery and electronics work so I often take things apart to see what is going on.

My wife almost had a coronary when she seen me taking our two head CNC Router apart within weeks of having it delivered.

Unmatched size of thread in bobbin and on top is no biggy. Just remember the smallest thread strength is what your stitch will be. Not much difference between 207 and 277.

I can sew with 92 thread but I will be the first to admit it can screw up the settings you may have had for even 138 on the 3200.

I certainly do not have any direct connection with CowBoy other than owning the 3200. It is an excellent machine. I personally would hate for you to sell yours because of your frustrations.

I am going to give you my personal instructions I try to follow every time I have a tension problem and I will bet 50 bucks your problems are mostly Tension settings.

#1:    I tighten the tension screw on the bobbin to just barely snug with the bobbin removed. Not 40 pounds snug. More like letting that little screw driver turn between your fingers just before you drop it.

#2:    Now, loosen the screw 1/8th turn, reinstall the bobbin. Adjust the tension discs so they feel as though they are just making the thread have a little tension on it when pulling it through. 

#3:    Rethread the needle and bring the bobbin thread up with top thread. I assume you are holding both threads behind or slightly to the side of foot when you first begin your stitching.

#4:    Your first thought may be, you really do not want to fiddle with this after your previous endeavors with the machine. I promise you, this will be worth it 90% of the time.

#5:    Follow the procedure with the bobbin tension spring, 1/8 turn no more than three times. Do not change the upper tension. Sew several inches in the same leather you wish to use for your project each time you change the tension.

#6:    The knots may not be quite right so change the top tension in very small increments until they are in the center and your stitches are tight.

Please let us know what transpires if you decide to do this. Some folks have told me that is too much of a bother. Isn't when you are having as much trouble as you are.

I hope this helps.

Ferg

[Ferg]

6 hours ago, Clintock said:

I've tried 138. Could never center the knot in 4/5 oz single layer. I mighta been asking too much of the machine. Now it's just 277 top and bottom. I see lots of folks doing 207 on bottom. I don't know the purpose of that. You'd still have to use a bigger needle for 277. So... the smaller thread on bottom wouldn't fill the hole. Is that correct? Smaller thread buries deeper in the leather? Knot harder to center? There's still so much I don't know about the machine. 

I think if you want to sew 138 in 4/5 oz. you need a flat bed machine.

Ferg

Edited June 19, 2018 by Ferg

[Clintock]

@Bugstruck I've checked the tail. It's sucked back into bobbin. Tried that with 4 different bobbins now. Regarding 4/5 oz I was just referencing I've tried to stitch it. Never would do right for me. Mostly what I stitch now is 7/8 doubled or 7/8 with a 3 oz liner. So I know there's plenty of room for the knot to be centered. I'm half bald now and with this machine I'll be completely bald in a week or two. But I'm not gonna give up on it. 

@Ferg completely understand about wanting to know how things work. I've been that way for years. Went to trade school for automotive technician and went through apprenticeship for journeyman electrician. Have my nceer card for electrical now. Oh yea. Back to the machine. 

I'm not gonna bet ya cause I have no idea about it yet but I am gonna give those steps a try. Only thing I really haven't done yet is hit with a hammer. If this don't work Ima start with the biggest hammer I can find. Will definitely let ya know how the results turn out. 

 

[Clintock]

Ok. So I've done all that you mentioned @Ferg  still no luck. I'm out of disc adjustment. Included a pic 

Is the top tensioner supposed to be harder to turn than the main? I would assume the main supposed to be harder due to the fact it s the main. 

Anyone close to Alabama that can come fix it? I've been tinkering with it over a week

Think I'm gonna start that procedure over and back off the bobbin spring another 1/8. And I may have overshot that sweet spot  it was close on a couple runs but still had one or two knots on bottom. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Clintock

[Ferg]

Your "Needle holes" are awfully large. I know the needles are much larger on the 3200 than my Consew Flat Bed. Still seems to me, those holes are huge.

If the needle makes too large on the holes the thread cannot make a knot stay within the leather. 

I think you are on the right track with one more 1/8th of a turn on the bobbin tension. 

One thing that complicates tension settings, someone mentioned this before I believe, thread from different suppliers will effect your stitching as well as some colors. Black is notorious.

Looks like you are using an "LL" needle. Try a straight line stitch needle such as a "P" or "S".

This is 138 in 4/5 oz. Bridle with a 4/5 oz. soft Veg Tanned Cowhide on back.

I selected this photo because of seemingly large holes with a soft leather as a back and contrasting color thread. If you look very close you can see an occasional knot that isn't quite pulled into the center, or is it? The leather I used has soft spots in it. When the machine goes down the stitch line there are/can be spots that are more thin than others. That can, but not always, cause some of your problems.

This was stitched on my 3200. 

Ferg

Edited June 19, 2018 by Ferg

[Clintock]

I'm using cowboy brand thread (277) from bob with a 24 LL needle. Maybe one more 1:8 turn will help straighten it out. Gonna redo it this afternoon after work. 

[JLSleather]

Your stitches show heavy tension on the bottom --- meaning EITHER NOT ENOUGH TOP tension or TOO MUCH BOTTOM tension.  Because the thread is not pulled up tight on the leather, I'm fixina opt for NOT ENOUGH TOP tension.  I don't mean the holes, I mean the thread BETWEEN the holes doesn't look very tight.  I know those needles and the thread you're using, and that don't look "sucked up".

Try that thing I pictured.

If'n t'was me, I'd back the WHOLE thing off 'n' start over.  That's TWO screws above AND the bobbin case.  Set you bobbin tension just so it has some "drag" when you pull the thread.  NOT JERK the thread.. yer a equipment guy.. so think pulling the grader out the muck with a chain.. easy, even pressure gits er done, eh?  Pull it in the direction it goes.. NOT against the thread path. 

Then adjust the top to suit. If the knot is centered, but thread not tight, then it's simple to snug up BOTH top 'n' bottom.  

I don't sew to see thread right there.. I sew like the top 'n' bottom is two elephants tug o war.. bury that thread in teh thing (almost)...

By the way... you didn't want "light showing" through "big" holes.  This is a 226 holster pic taken with a desk lamp pointed at it from behind.  Size 24 Smetz LL point needle, 277 thread front and 207 thread back -- both threads supplied by Bob at Toledo Ind (link below). 

Yes, that's a fluffy pink pig on my desk, with her butt filled like a bean bag so she don't tip off.  SO?@!

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

1 hour ago, JLSleather said:

Your stitches show heavy tension on the bottom --- meaning EITHER NOT ENOUGH TOP tension or TOO MUCH BOTTOM tension.  Because the thread is not pulled up tight on the leather, I'm fixina opt for NOT ENOUGH TOP tension.  I don't mean the holes, I mean the thread BETWEEN the holes doesn't look very tight.  I know those needles and the thread you're using, and that don't look "sucked up".

Try that thing I pictured.

If'n t'was me, I'd back the WHOLE thing off 'n' start over.  That's TWO screws above AND the bobbin case.  Set you bobbin tension just so it has some "drag" when you pull the thread.  NOT JERK the thread.. yer a equipment guy.. so think pulling the grader out the muck with a chain.. easy, even pressure gits er done, eh?  Pull it in the direction it goes.. NOT against the thread path. 

Then adjust the top to suit. If the knot is centered, but thread not tight, then it's simple to snug up BOTH top 'n' bottom.  

I don't sew to see thread right there.. I sew like the top 'n' bottom is two elephants tug o war.. bury that thread in teh thing (almost)...

By the way... you didn't want "light showing" through "big" holes.  This is a 226 holster pic taken with a desk lamp pointed at it from behind.  Size 24 Smetz LL point needle, 277 thread front and 207 thread back -- both threads supplied by Bob at Toledo Ind (link below). 

Yes, that's a fluffy pink pig on my desk, with her butt filled like a bean bag so she don't tip off.  SO?@!

Everything he just said, right there, especially the part about burying the thread.  These machines are notorious for NOT having a tight stitch.  The bigger the thread, the more it's going to lay on top.  My 4500 does not especially like LL needles; everything has to be absolutely perfect for it to sew with them.  S point needles are a little less picky, but I don't like the look as well, plus you can't sew as fine of a stitch.  JLS does a nice job of stitching on that machine with the LL needles. I'd give him a listen.

[JLSleather]

     

[JLSleather]

This should show the stitch well enough.  Just by changing teh needle from LL to LR, with everything else the same and unchanged.  

The LL is a tight, straight stitch.  The LR is a 'higher' - less set in stitch, with that slightly feminine, angled, "frilly" look that the girls seem to like   Stitch length is the same, but the angle makes it APPEAR that the stitches are longer.

The bottom shows the way teh LL needles close up the hole so well.  6 per inch shown (under a sig P938 slide)

 

[Clintock]

2 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

I'd give him a listen.

Oh yea definitely. He's alright for a northerner. 

4 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Your stitches show heavy tension on the bottom

 Yes. Enough to make the leather curve or cup After it's stitched. Just can not seem to get the top tension to do right. I'll give your logic a try in an hour or so. Maybe two. 

 

I do wanna stay stay with the LL needles. I really like the way the stitch looks compared to straight or S needles 

[JLSleather]

26 minutes ago, Clintock said:

Oh yea definitely. He's alright for a northerner. 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

5 hours ago, Clintock said:

Oh yea definitely. He's alright for a northerner

And a Minnesotan no less!!.

[Clintock]

Ok. I've went through with some of fergs and some of jeffs suggestions and came up with this. Thread is tight as a banjo string and kinda hard to pull slack when finished stitching. Backstitches look like crap but that's prolly me. I really appreciate all the comments and suggestions! Thank you all!

[JLSleather]

Why them holes look so big?@!  Turn yer needle just a tad... rotate it in the bar.  Looks like maybe a tad clockwise.. your thread may be a bit "behind' the needle.  

My buddy Robert had the greatest fix for backstitch issues.  Don't backstitch.  Turn the project around, stitch back in teh same holes in forward.  Solved.

No git ya a towel, dry yer eyes, and tell us what ya did for the next guy goes through that

 

[Clintock]

Did what y'all talked about. Cussed a little. Laughed a little to keep from crying. Cried a little anyway. Stare at it. Cuss it some more. Looked for hammer.  Only thing I did do differently this time was wrap the thread 180 degrees around top disc tensioner. Don't ask how that makes a difference but it did. Then followed yalls suggestion. 

Min all seriousness y'all have saved me a big headache. A big thank you!!! 

[Wizcrafts]

34 minutes ago, Clintock said:

Only thing I did do differently this time was wrap the thread 180 degrees around top disc tensioner. Don't ask how that makes a difference but it did.

It kept the thread deep inside the disks, which was not happening before. Bonded nylon and polyester thread is much more slippery than unbonded thread. Slippery thread that moves around in tension disks needs to have a greater angle of entry and exit from the disks to keep it centered. If the angle can't be changed, double wrapping it will help.

The theory of the multi-hole top post on some industrial sewing machines.

Because some sewing machines, like 441 and 205 types, have their tension disks on the top of the head/faceplate area, the incoming angle of incidence of the top thread can be almost inline. This is horrible for maintaining dependable top tension. Bonded thread is not only slippery, but is often twisty. That is a two way fight for the guide in front of the disks. So, vendors of these machines usually hammer in a thread guide post that has 2 to 4 holes, drilled at different angles. The idea is that if the thread is moving around in the disks, providing some back pressure will predispose the thread to stay down in the disks. By feeding the thread through holes at different angles, you build back pressure. The closer the wrapping and greater the angle of wrap, the greater the back pressure. It can be so great that it overrides your tension spring entirely. That is counterproductive.

So, if your machine has a top post with even one hole going through it, feed the thread through the hole and turn the post with pliers so the exit angle is not inline with the tension disks. If it has 2 or more holes, feed it in the top, then around, then out the bottom hole. Back off the top tension spring to balance the knots. If you back it off all the way and the knots are too high and the bobbin spring can't bring the knots down, go back to using one hole with an offset angle.

If your machine lacks a top post with holes, try to move the steel loop thread guide in front of the tension disks down as far as it will go. I did that on my CB4500 and it really helps secure the thread inside the disks. When really twisty thread causes trouble, I feed it through the top hole, around the post, then down and out the lowest (4th) hole, which is inline. I can still use the top tension and bobbin tension springs to fine tune the knots.

IHTH.

[RockyAussie]

If all you want to do is stitch thick double layer stuff then that tight as a banjo string setting may work for you. From what I have understood previously the problem has been more that the thread tension kept showing the knots intermittently. I suspect that if you back of this high tension you will get the same problem raise its head. There are a huge list of reasons as to why a machine will give you intermittent thread tensions problems and for future reference I will go through a few.

1st - always check that the thread is coming off at the spool without any catching. Sometimes thread can almost be welded together and all you can do there is keep pulling it off until and if it stops catching.

2nd make sure that the bobbin is wound on with a good even pressure and it should not catch at all intermittently when pulled through the spring in the bobbin case.

3. if the bobbin looks well loaded and it catches check the bobbin for smoothness. I often polish the ends and edges of mine on a rag wheel with Tripoli polish compound. I also use a drop of oil down in the bobbin case base to be sure of smooth friction.

4. occasionally I take the secondary (top tension) discs off and polish the faces to remove any formed ridges or imperfections.

5. on the primary tension(the lower tension assembly) I remove the discs and washers etc and the parts that rub against the felt pads I brush over a very fine wet and dry sandpaper then polish. I also put a little oil on the felts while I have them apart. (this area is often overlooked but if you check carefully you will see that the thread is turning that disc in the middle a little with every stitch or at least you should see it. If it gets hung up a times you have ...up and down tension problem.

6 Foot pressure. If your foot pressure is too light then when the knot comes up it can lift the job and then the knot can stay on the bottom. Some leather being hard and soft with insufficient foot pressure will give intermittent knots normally on the bottom side.

7 Bad timing.

In this case I will also point out that the shuttle race screws need to be loose enough to just see the springs behind the screw heads as seen about 9 minutes in on this Video. Some people mistakenly do them up tight including some sellers of these machines.

Lastly - In case you have not seen it I recommend to watch this Video . The only part I differ with here is that when I am loading a bobbin I prefer to hold the thread on the outside of the winder (I leave a tail about 6" long to hold) when it starts until it breaks off. This stops that loose bit of thread from tangling around and upsetting the even winding.

I am sorry I could not find my small fish scales to get some base settings as yet. I think they would also be great for showing up visually how much variation is happening from the top tension when being pulled through as well a the bobbin tension. I am sure I would have had sometimes a pound in tension variation and being able to say its the bobbin or the top or both quickly would be a nice jump start.

Brian

[JLSleather]

Wait.. so to be clear .. what you did is this?

HOW did I know the pink pig is a "she"?  My little girl said so.

Edited June 20, 2018 by JLSleather

[JLSleather]

First one might save a fella 14 minutes of what I'm having for dinner and my dog's friend's hair color -- how to adjust bobbin tension in 30 seconds.

Second pic an old one of so holster pattern testing, using #24 LL needle, natural thread in 277.

Third pic is pure propaganda   I would have preferred to use natural thread there (to complement the rope) but went with the dark brown requested.

[Clintock]

@RockyAussie tension on these threads would break your scales  aims be honest with ya, ifn I gotta do all that polishing then it'd be quicker to handstitch everything I do. But I do see what you're talking about and can understand the reasoning. Nothing catching so far just for some reason machine got out of tension. I'm slowly but surely learning more about it. 

@JLSleather yep. That's exactly what I did. And fiddled with tension some more. And that pig might self identify as a bear. 

pic turned for some reason but you can still get the jist of it. 

[Bugstruck]

All is well that ends well they say. Learned some things here too. I had a sense, when Clintok put that photo up of his stitching in response to Ferg, that he was going to beat this and somewhere in there he told us what he did for work and I knew for sure he had this beat in time, with all the good info being posted. I'm sure I wasn't the only one walking to my machine checking something and some here obviously did way more than that.

What Rocky Aussie recently posted about the lower tension polish and oil. Well in the checking (radically altering) my machine upper tensions during this effort I noticed how choppy my lower tension was and thought that needs some attention. Oil on the felt crossed my mind but the polishing he recommends didn't, that will occur too now.

Kudos to him and Wiz for some added things to check on bobbins going forward. Combined posts, this thread is an arsenal on clone tension issues. I think they only thing we may have missed and I may have missed that myself, is checking for any contamination below the bobbin spring. If it wasn't perviously it is now.

I run that 180 degree thread path nearly all of the time on my top tension. Definitely helps keep the thread where it belongs.

[Wizcrafts]

5 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Wait.. so to be clear .. what you did is this?

HOW did I know the pink pig is a "she"?  My little girl said so.

Yes, I lower that thread guide as far as possible. Some machines will have more room to move the guide than others.

[JLSleather]

4 hours ago, Clintock said:

that pig might self identify as a bear

Anyone "self-identifying" is simply and quickly asked to leave.  My party and I'll snub who I want to. 

[Clintock]

@Wizcrafts I tried to move that loop as you suggested but it only moved maybe a 32nd of an inch. But it's working now so it's all good! 

As bugstruck mentioned, I did learn some things to check for in the future and during this ordeal I learned some pretty good info. 

@RockyAussie don't take what I said to heart. Reading back over it looked like it may have been a smart ass remark. It was all in good humor. 

@JLSleather I knew I'd get a response outta you! 

Again THANKS TO ALL THAT HELPED GET THIS THING BACK SEWING!!