Dyeing: leather stiffness

[IrisLH]

I'm fairly new to leathercraft and one topic that I still have so many questions on is dyeing and treating leather. There's just so much stuff out there and everyone does it all differently. Now, I understand that a lot of it comes to experience and mostly personal preference, but I'd love to hear some tips/ opinions here on a few matters:

1) I currently dye using Fiebing's Leather Dye. I diluted the stuff with spirits since I found that without diluting, the colors are too intense. Whatever type of brown I used would all turn out dark brown for example, and my blue was getting too close to black for my taste too. So, I diluted the stuff. Works kinda.. I know the alcohol makes leather stiff and I'm really considering switching to Fiebing's pro dye. I've heard that this doesn't make your leather stiff although I've also read otherwise. Anyway, in the case of leather dye.. what can I do to prevent this terrible stiffness? Should I do something after dyeing, before, or both? Tips and tricks are very much welcome.

2) I've read quite a lot on this forum about Neatsfoot oil. I've read people use it to treat leather before dyeing and maybe after, I'm not sure. However in many video's I've watched here and there I've never really seen anyone use neatsfoot oil. So I'm curious, does it really help to add this before dyeing, for example? I've owned a bottle once and all I can remember from it is that I thought it smelled really bad..

I really hope someone can share their tips/tricks/opinions/knowledge on these matters.

Cheers,
Iris

[immiketoo]

Hey, Iris.  

So, pro dye wont work any differently in regards to stiffness, but you will see a noticeable improvement in evenness of coverage, depending on how you're applying it.  I think that if you're making the leather stiff, you're applying it too heavily.  This is a very common occurrence with dip dyeing and heavy application with a dauber.  Its better to sneak up on your color with a few lighter applications than one heavy one.  Easier to control and more even results.  BTW, blue is one of the most difficult colors to use, apart form purple which is the worst.  

As for oil, there is a great debate on whether or not its needed.  Personally, I don't think it is.  Maybe for saddles and horse tack, but for most things its simply not needed.  People slap that crap all over their projects and then wonder why it looks dark or splotchy.  However, I DO oil lightly between coats of dye when I use an airbrush because it helps set the previous color and helps the new layer absorb better.  Buddy of mine gave me that tip and it works great on fades.  Airbrush can be very topical and anything to make it sink in more helps.

The type of alcohol you use to thin your dye can affect stiffness, so I recommend denatured alcohol.  That's what is in the dyes, and its the best for the pigment as well.  Other kinds will work but your mileage may vary.  Lastly, the type and thickness of the leather makes a difference as well.  Thin leather will get crispy pretty easily while thicker leather maintains its suppleness longer.  The alcohol in the dye affects the fillers in the leather, fats, collagen etc., so the thinner the leather, the lighter the coat should be.  

If you can't avoid saturating the leather, replacing some of the suppleness with oil will help, but you must account for the change in color when you dye or it will be darker than you intended during dyeing.  My suggestion is to look at the method you use to apply it and experiment with others until you find what works best for you.

 

 

[JLSleather]

You'll get "answers" on this to no end.  Stand on your left foot looking east in the morning, they'll tell you

But yeah, I thin about every color - including the "pro" dye - on all but the darkest browns and black.  And I thin it with the thinner made for that.  A quart goes a long way, unless you're dip dyeing saddles

Not sure what you had in the oil that caused the smell -- neatsfoot has very little smell.  I don't use it on everything, but where I do use it I use it AFTER the dye and sparsely applied.  Light coats.

 

[immiketoo]

12 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

You'll get "answers" on this to no end.  Stand on your left foot looking east in the morning, they'll tell you

But yeah, I thin about every color - including the "pro" dye - on all but the darkest browns and black.  And I thin it with the thinner made for that.  A quart goes a long way, unless you're dip dyeing saddles

Not sure what you had in the oil that caused the smell -- neatsfoot has very little smell.  I don't use it on everything, but where I do use it I use it AFTER the dye and sparsely applied.  Light coats.

 

Maybe neatsfoot compound?  I had a can of that it smelled pretty bad.

[immiketoo]

https://www.amazon.com/Fiebings-Prime-Neatsfoot-Compound-gallon/dp/B00A2X6ED2

 

[nrk]

2 hours ago, immiketoo said:

Hey, Iris.  

So, pro dye wont work any differently in regards to stiffness

 

 

not agree - experience and simple tests shows a great difference between regular (spirit) dye and a pro (oil) dye - both fiebings

agree with coverage and evenness of oil dyes - they a very pleasant to work with

Edited November 21, 2018 by nrk

[bermudahwin]

1 hour ago, JLSleather said:

neatsfoot has very little smell

The neatsfoot oil I used on my Brookes Cycling saddle was quite pungent...  even before I'd ever used it.

Its put me off the stuff ever since. I'd love to find an equivalent that has no smell.

Edited November 21, 2018 by hwinbermuda

[immiketoo]

44 minutes ago, nrk said:

not agree - experience and simple tests shows a great difference between regular (spirit) dye and a pro (oil) dye - both fiebings

agree with coverage and evenness of oil dyes - they a very pleasant to work with

Just so we’re clear, there is no oil in oil/pro dye.  According to the Fiebings rep I spoke with a few years ago the only difference between the two dyes is the quality of the pigment.  You’ll get a lot less excess dyestuffs on the surface of the leather, hence the more even color, but both are alcohol based dyes. The chemical composition is identical.  MSDS will show this as well.  

Its is an urban myth among leather workers that oil dye has an oil base. This is simply not true and it is specifically why Fiebings changed the name to pro dye.

youre experience may differ, can’t say why that is, but it’s not because of any oil content in the dye.  Hope this helps.

[terrymac]

21 hours ago, hwinbermuda said:

The neatsfoot oil I used on my Brookes Cycling saddle was quite pungent...  even before I'd ever used it.

Its put me off the stuff ever since. I'd love to find an equivalent that has no smell.

Try Bee 's Natural Saddle Oil.  Has no smell and does not darken leather.

Hop e this helps

Terry

[bermudahwin]

Thank you Terry,

Harry

[NVLeatherWorx]

As already noted you will get a ton of answers and tips and they all work well for those who offer them.  Regarding whether or not oil/conditioning is necessary the short answer is yes and here is why:  every time you touch the leather you are removing some of the natural oils that are in the fibers; every time you apply a spirit based product you are again removing some of the natural oils from the fibers.  These oils need to be replenished so as to keep the leather pliable and proper but you don't need a lot of oil to do this.  First, you want to make sure that you are using ONLY Pure Neatsfoot Oil, it doesn't smell and it doesn't have any additional chemicals in it like the compound versions do (those chemicals actually counteract the oil benefits and they create a much darker finished look).  Only apply it in light coats, let it set for a few hours (I leave mine for at least 8 hours) and then apply again as necessary.  If you do it right you will not see a noticeably darker color for your final look but if you overdo it you will see the colors as much darker and your leather will sweat oil for a very long time.  I apply a light coating before I do any dyeing/staining which helps you get a more even application of the color and the pigments also tend to set a bit better; I apply another coating after it has all dried to give back some of what I have taken away from it during the process of adding color.  Once all is said and done I final seal everything with a coating of my own leather conditioner (a blend of beeswax, cocoa butter, and Pure Neatsfoot Oil) so that it has a good outer seal, gets a bit more oil for conditioning, and has a protective layer to repel moisture long enough to get your leather gear in a dry and protected area.

For dyes I only use Fiebing's Pro Dye (and have been using it since it was first introduced; used Fiebing's Dye ever since I started working with leather).  I find that the Pro Dye has a more even coverage on first application and has a flawless coverage on the second application (both of them light to medium application).  The Pro Dye also has a more consistent pigment dispersion and is a bit slower on the drying time (the spirits don't evaporate as fast as with the regular dye versions) so you get a better color set overall.

[ABHandmade]

You can also try spirit dyes Toledo Super (manufacturer KendaFarben, Italy). They give an even color (you could see an example of their use in my wallet with roses, there everything — the background and the image — was made by them) and dry the leather very weak.
They are perfectly diluted with isopropyl spirit, which makes it possible to obtain the desired shade. In addition, applying several layer diluted dye gives a much more even color than 1 time undiluted - this has already been mentioned here.
There is one peculiarity - they become brighter when the finish is applied or when treatment by oil .

The only drawback is a strong odor, but this is common to all spirit dyes.
As an oil for impregnation, I use refined mink oil. From my point of view, it works more delicately than neatsfoot. But this is my subjective opinion.
Again, according to my observations, for soft leather a small use of oil after dyeing is desirable. For tough leather it is a matter of taste and habit