Seiko STW-8B - question on servo with needle positioner

[katit]

Seems like there is some kind of virus, after you get one machine you need another

So, machine in question came up for sale locally (finally). It's the same as 226R (thanks to this forum). For the price I think it's great even though smaller bobbin which is not a big deal for me as I see it now. But it has reverse which IS a good feature to have.

It will have clutch and I am immediately thinking about slowing down and going servo. I started to check ebay and they have motors with positioner at about $150. I think this needle positioner is a bomb for what I do. I always deal with this when sewing. Either raise needle to take work off or keep it lowered to make turns. If it works as I think it does - I'm not even going to be concerned about speed per se. If I can jerk pedal and cause one full stitch that is all I really need. Or something close to that. And then there is a button to control either it works with needle up or needle down for 2 modes.

Does it work just like I described? Do all of them work for up or down (with button switch)? Any specific issues/problems with equipping this machine with positioner?

P.S. Machine needs some TLC but it works and I got some experience with machines now

[dikman]

If you're going to slow the machine right down then to a large extent that negates the need for a positioner as you can control the needle position fairly easily.

You should be able to set any needle positioner for either stopping up or down, usually the controls will be "buried" in the menu system of the servo, so not just a matter of pushing one button. Some servos may allow you to set the pedal so that if you heel down on the pedal the needle will rise if the default is stopping needle down. Also, be aware that some needle positioners may not work if a pulley reducing system is also used.

[katit]

With my Pfaff 1245 I have servo and smaller 45mm pulley. It is slow but I have to manually crank up or down every single time it seems. And I can go faster in general in what I do (car upholstery)

 

so it feels like this is very good frature. But I do need a way to easily control if it’s going to be needle up or down. Is there a name for this specific feature?

[Wizcrafts]

I have to agree with Katit here. I too have servo equipped machines without reducers and it is sometimes hit and miss with using my foot alone to stop dead up or down. That means I have to use the hand wheel to find the perfect rotational place . A needle positioner would speed things up by letting one sew fast, do a motion to affect the needle's position at the stop, then either pull out or resume sewing.

The machines that have 3:1 reducers are hard to turn by hand unless the brakes are removed from the servo motors. Clutch motors are easier to hand crank for precise needle placement.

[katit]

Looks like "positioner" debate should be left for later time. Not sure what I got myself into. I brought machine home. Bought it for $200 from retired upholstered. We met on a parking lot (was a far drive). I asked to show that it sews and we did couple of stitches by turning wheel. Everything moves smoothly.

Now I brought it home and realized couple things:

1. I should have left table with a seller. It's rusty on a bottom, top is bent, clutch motor. AND my table from PFAFF 1245 perfectly fits this machine (I wish I knew). But U-shaped legs look very sturdy (OLD). Maybe it's worth restoring? Basic grind/respray? 

2. Machine is filthy. NO rust which is great, not dried up, but just filthy everywhere, needs a good cleaning. Good part of paint remains, stickers, etc all there.

3. Everything seem to move smoothly, there is no play in needle bar or anywhere. Seller claims new rotary hook was installed. It does look new. However, seller also says "cleaned, serviced" and it doesn't look that way. 

 

I tried to sew on it - does not work. Skips stitches. Now to the questions.

1. Does anybody have good links to manuals, videos? What type needle? I found good video from Uwe on timing the hook.

2. See picture with timing belt gear. There is epoxy on it? What was fixed?

3. Front cover bolt broken (cover was taped in). What thread size there?

4. When machine sews reverse lever knocks on a body. Issue?

5. I tried adjusting stitch length but reverse always seem to be 0 or so. Almost no move in reverse.

6. Something missing on a back? I see hole and I see threaded hole.

7. How does it look to you overall? Did I get myself $200 door stop?

It seems that I need to start from basics. Get some #19 needles, metal bobbins. Then clean everything top to bottom. Lube/Grease and do all adjustments from A to Z. Right now I noticed hook touches needle.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by katit

[dikman]

Seiko's are nice machines and judging by those photos $200 is a very good price. It shouldn't be too hard to find a manual for it. Looks like it probably just needs a good cleaning, oiling and adjusting. As for the epoxy, my guess is either the safety clutch had a problem or someone decided to stop it working by gluing it up solid!

[katit]

@dikman I found manual, but there is not much beyond basic threading/oiling

 

Here is table. First of all, should I bother with it? Steel looks very good comparing to newer table, thicker. How much new tables going for? I will definitely need new top as current one warped.

And second, what is this other pedal with chain? I assume it's a foot lift, but where do I hook it up on machine??? If that's what it is - I already love it for the simple fact that I hate knee lift I got with my other machine (my knee is not really where it needs to be and no adjustments help)

Basically, should I salvage anything here? I can see myself spending couple hours on disassembly, grinding and respraying. Not sure about top, probably going to buy ready one.

 

 

[dikman]

The steel frame looks pretty reasonable, whether you re-paint it depends on how pretty you want it to look. Ditch the table top if it's warped, either make a new one (lots of posts about doing that), buy one or keep looking for a used one going cheap that you can adapt.

The chain/pedal is used instead of a knee lift, but it looks like the bars and pivots to connect it are missing from the rear of the machine.

I have an STH-8BLD, a slightly different model but I suspect some of the adjustments for timing could be the same (and the missing lift pieces). You should be able to find that manual (mine is 2.7mb, so too big to upload). I believe the machine may be similar to a Consew 206, the manual for those is readily available, and also the manuals for the Singer 111 series (111W153, for instance) may also be useful to understand setting the needle.

[brmax]

Looks like a great find! Congrats

The stand is looking pretty heavy duty I agree. A keeper imo

 

 

Good day

Floyd

[Matt S]

I'd be happy with that machine at double the price you paid. It's still a fraction of what a machine of this quality would cost new, so I always figure on spending some time and money in cleaning up any machine I buy second hand.

Specifically I suggest oiling it heavily and leaving over night. Then fit a brand new top quality needle (correct class and size of course) and bobbin before retiming. Find the parts book online and write down all the ones that could do with replacement. Buy the ones you definitely need and wait to buy the "would be nice" ones until the machine has made some money. (The end cover isn't essential, but the bobbin cover nearly is.) Clean whatever schmoo you can without removing parts. Polish away any burrs or nicks on the shuttle hook that you can.

As you've said there's not much this machine can do that your Pfaff cannot (except reverse). However you might find it useful to have your two machines setup to do different sorts of work -- the Seiko for v69/tkt40 thread and the Pfaff for v138/tkt20 for instance. That would mean less time adjusting the machine between different operations. Plus you'll have a backup in case of a sudden failure of your other machine.

[katit]

Took stand apart. I think I will give it a shot. Like I thought an hour with grinder, some spray cans with paint, some new hardware and it will be good to go. So far 3 thing I'm potentially going to like about machine if I make it work: a. Pedal lift (seller said he got rear linkage parts hopefully will get them this week) should be better than knee lift and rear lever to raise feet much easier to operate, b. Reverse lever seem to be easier to use than one I got in PFAFF, c. Head is not as bulky as in PFAFF, looks easier to move work around it (like headrests)

 

2 hours ago, Matt S said:

I'd be happy with that machine at double the price you paid. It's still a fraction of what a machine of this quality would cost new, so I always figure on spending some time and money in cleaning up any machine I buy second hand.

Specifically I suggest oiling it heavily and leaving over night. Then fit a brand new top quality needle (correct class and size of course) and bobbin before retiming. Find the parts book online and write down all the ones that could do with replacement. Buy the ones you definitely need and wait to buy the "would be nice" ones until the machine has made some money. (The end cover isn't essential, but the bobbin cover nearly is.) Clean whatever schmoo you can without removing parts. Polish away any burrs or nicks on the shuttle hook that you can.

As you've said there's not much this machine can do that your Pfaff cannot (except reverse). However you might find it useful to have your two machines setup to do different sorts of work -- the Seiko for v69/tkt40 thread and the Pfaff for v138/tkt20 for instance. That would mean less time adjusting the machine between different operations. Plus you'll have a backup in case of a sudden failure of your other machine.

Matt, I got it all oiled. Ordered #19 needles Organ titanium 135x17. Going to order some bobbins.

I do have bobbin cover, it's off on pictures but I got it. Front cover I have it too, I just need to get knurled bolt and drill out broken stud.

What do you mean when you say PFAFF cannot do reverse? 

My plan A clean and make it sew, then plan B get it nicely restored (painted). Didn't find any parts lists yet.

 

I will see how it works out and if all well I will be considering selling one machine. I don't and don't plan on doing any #69 sewing. 90% will be #92 and maybe sometimes 138 for topstitching.

Edited December 9, 2018 by katit

[katit]

I got bobbins and needles ordered. I tried again after oiling, cleaning hook/shuttle, properly threading. Needle is too big, bottom thread is whatever I got from seller, but anyways. It's not working, I get 3-4 stitches and then thread get's frayed. Would you say I need to order new bottom plate and dog? Those look really worn. And what are those smooth feet should be good for? I'm thinking if I should get some extra feet's. All takes time, mine as well order all at the same time..

[Matt S]

2 hours ago, katit said:

Took stand apart. I think I will give it a shot. Like I thought an hour with grinder, some spray cans with paint, some new hardware and it will be good to go. So far 3 thing I'm potentially going to like about machine if I make it work: a. Pedal lift (seller said he got rear linkage parts hopefully will get them this week) should be better than knee lift and rear lever to raise feet much easier to operate, b. Reverse lever seem to be easier to use than one I got in PFAFF, c. Head is not as bulky as in PFAFF, looks easier to move work around it (like headrests)

 

Matt, I got it all oiled. Ordered #19 needles Organ titanium 135x17. Going to order some bobbins.

I do have bobbin cover, it's off on pictures but I got it. Front cover I have it too, I just need to get knurled bolt and drill out broken stud.

What do you mean when you say PFAFF cannot do reverse? 

My plan A clean and make it sew, then plan B get it nicely restored (painted). Didn't find any parts lists yet.

Glad you have those parts, you got a great deal. Hopefully it won't take you long to get it in top condition. Seikos are good machines.

Apologies, I thought that your Pfaff didn't have reverse.

[dikman]

Fraying thread - it looks to me like something is catching one of the strands, check the feed dog, hook etc for burrs or rough spots. The takeup spring may not be set correctly, allowing slack thread which the hook can catch or the needle may pierce. It's the most likely culprit to me.

[DonInReno]

If it sewed ok and isn’t worn out it would be worth $400, but any machine not working is worth half price since there’s no telling what you’ll find, so you still did good at this price.  My advice is download a service manual, look at Uwe’s excellent videos and go through it cleaning and adjusting until it’s all been gone through - the fraying thread is probably an easily solved needle-hook adjustment, or dull hook, but everything needs to be gone through just based on the half assed epoxy fix and broken front cover screw - I predict you’ll find a half dozen other issues.

[katit]

1 hour ago, DonInReno said:

If it sewed ok and isn’t worn out it would be worth $400, but any machine not working is worth half price since there’s no telling what you’ll find, so you still did good at this price.  My advice is download a service manual, look at Uwe’s excellent videos and go through it cleaning and adjusting until it’s all been gone through - the fraying thread is probably an easily solved needle-hook adjustment, or dull hook, but everything needs to be gone through just based on the half assed epoxy fix and broken front cover screw - I predict you’ll find a half dozen other issues.

Don, 

I don't see any other damage so far. Machine was workhorse for sure, but it wasn't dry. I now see it as a project. I got it to sew without fraying thread but it still skips. I didn't do any adjustments yet and needle is some really oversized one for the threads. And bottom thread is mismatch. Anyway, I'm thinking I will replace feed dog and plate too, they look very worn and hole maybe another reason for fraying thread.

So, at the end it may be $500-600 but with bunch of accessories, servo/positioner, some new parts and lot's of labor. I am kind of pleased to see that prices on stuff is like 1/3 of prices on my PFAFF parts/accessories.

 

P.S. Any hints on winding bobbins without winder? I wonder if my PFAFF winder will work, but those bobbins don't have cutoffs..

Edited December 10, 2018 by katit

[katit]

1 hour ago, DonInReno said:

My advice is download a service manual, look at Uwe’s excellent videos and go through it cleaning and adjusting until it’s all been gone through

I found videos. But can't find any service manuals. Any help? I know machine is the same as Consew 226R and Consew 226R user manual is all I have.

[dikman]

If you look at a consew 206 manual you may be able to relate some of the adjustments to yours.

[DonInReno]

15 minutes ago, katit said:

found videos. But can't find any service manuals. Any help? I know machine is the same as Consew 226R and Consew 226R user manual is all I have.

Keep in mind this is one version of a very popular design that varies little between manufacturers - the adjustment basics are very similar between the brands for the most part.

 

 

Using a $10 commercial bobbin winder and a free or nearly free residential sewing machine motor mounted to a board makes an easy to use variable speed bobbin winder.

[katit]

Thanks! I got it (file is not working here but I found link):

http://keysew.com/Webpages/DemoImages/USNavySinger111WConsew225REPAIR.pdf

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

On 12/8/2018 at 2:47 AM, dikman said:

If you're going to slow the machine right down then to a large extent that negates the need for a positioner as you can control the needle position fairly easily.

You should be able to set any needle positioner for either stopping up or down, usually the controls will be "buried" in the menu system of the servo, so not just a matter of pushing one button. Some servos may allow you to set the pedal so that if you heel down on the pedal the needle will rise if the default is stopping needle down. Also, be aware that some needle positioners may not work if a pulley reducing system is also used.

Great information.  Quite a few motors do have a single button on the control panel that will allow for on the fly needle up/needle down positioning.  SP-1100NPFL and all the Efka motors comes to mind, and many some others as well.

[katit]

12 hours ago, katit said:

Thanks! I got it (file is not working here but I found link):

http://keysew.com/Webpages/DemoImages/USNavySinger111WConsew225REPAIR.pdf

Yes, looks like this machine as far as main timing goes - 100% or really close to match. What about reverse? Can reverse be adjusted after everything else? I just wanted to make sure if I go through all the process I won't have to redo it for setting reverse correctly.

Currently reverse lever knocking on machine body during sewing and reverse is pretty much sewing on one spot, definitely not "walking back"

[katit]

3 hours ago, katit said:

Yes, looks like this machine as far as main timing goes - 100% or really close to match. What about reverse? Can reverse be adjusted after everything else? I just wanted to make sure if I go through all the process I won't have to redo it for setting reverse correctly.

Currently reverse lever knocking on machine body during sewing and reverse is pretty much sewing on one spot, definitely not "walking back"

Never mind this! I think I know enough to be dangerous now. Uwe's videos on 111 machines have everything I need. If I find something that doesn't look the same I will post additional questions.

I'm really tempted to take it apart completely and do sandblasting/repaint.

[dikman]

I thought that with a couple of mine, but as they're working well I decided not to tempt fate!!

[katit]

2 hours ago, dikman said:

I thought that with a couple of mine, but as they're working well I decided not to tempt fate!!

I kind of think that it's one of the things every man should do in life Rebuild sewing machine.

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by katit