Anyone ever do an apprenticeship? Was it worth it?

[JLSleather]

Nah... every USEFUL thing i ever learned was largely IN SPITE OF schools, rather than because of them. 

In 1980-something, I asked a guy a question.  Maybe a week or two later, I asked another one.  By the time I saw him a third time (he was SUPPOSED TO BE making a belt for me) he had a sign up "this is not a school".  I let him live.  But he irritated me enough that I decided to 1) make my own belt, and 2) make an example out of this petty, passive/aggressive woman in a man suit (seriously, a man could have said your belt isn't ready, but here's a rough time frame).

I bought a good number of books, which in those days were largely Stohlman, and taught myself.  Didn't take long to surpass most, but then I actually wanted to learn, not interested in doing little as possible to get someone to give me money.

Now days, there are 'classes' and videos everywhere.  Buy them if you like ..   But the people making those, somehow managed to learn WITHOUT those.  People learned BEFORE those existed.  

"Apprentice" is a polite sounding word, but an "apprentice" is supposed to be PAID, not the one doing the PAYING.  Any 'payment' (compensation) would reasonably be in the form of a lower wage than would be expected for an accomplished, experienced worker.  People ABSOLUTELY DO learn trades by working "for" or "under" someone more experienced.  And they get PAID to work "under" them.

I always say, when a fella thinks his opinion is worth SO much that I should pay him to hear it ... he can KEEP it

 

[YinTx]

2 hours ago, JLSleather said:

People ABSOLUTELY DO learn trades by working "for" or "under" someone more experienced.  And they get PAID to work "under" them.

Indeed.  And for a while there the model was kinda disappearing,  because the craft of leatherworkers dwindled for a long time, and many of those still in it didn't want to share their skills or knowledge.  I think there was an interview with Bill Gomer at Elk Tracks Studio where he mentioned an older leather worker that was mad at him for trying to learn the skills by watching and using his tools.  It would be good to see it coming back.  

2 hours ago, JLSleather said:

I bought a good number of books,

 

2 hours ago, JLSleather said:

when a fella thinks his opinion is worth SO much that I should pay him to hear it ... he can KEEP it

the books weren't free... just sayin...  

YinTx

[kgg]

I do agree that an apprentice needs to be paid a fair wage if the end work is going to be sold or charged for, otherwise it is just schooling. All education whether by seminar, weekend courses, college, trade school or university the student pays to learn a skill.

Oh how times have changed from the indentured apprenticeships like my grandfather done. Seven years paying, yes paying, every week to learn under a master before being able to become one himself, he was a master tailor. We had other "tailors" in the family who he scuffed at not because their work wasn't decent but he considered them to be "factory" tailors. In his eyes they had to use pre-made patterns, etc. to produce a good end product rather then a being able to it from scratch with just the bolt of cloth in front of them.

kgg

 

[chrisash]

For at least the first year the apprentice costs you money as they know nothing and take a lot of your time teaching the basics and correcting there mistakes

In the second year they can be trusted to help make the basic items for the master to finish off, the master still has to put time aside to teach new techniques and skills so maybe a 50/50 year

In the third year the apprentice is improving their skills and making the master some more money

At the end of the third year the apprentice is skilled and leaves the master and the overall training is balanced

Another point is that not all masters can teach or want to, they can show how to do something just like a video or book, but to actually teach, just like many youg school teachers, teaching and doing are not always the same thing

[JLSleather]

It took me maybe a month to be making belts nicer than any around me - not YEARS.  By the time I was at it a year, I could DUPLICATE any of the designs in those books I mentioned, and often improved on them.  By the time I'd been tooling a year, I had more work than I could reasonably do by myself. 

I would have been willing to pay someone to help with the requests and orders, but couldn't find anyone who was both able and willing.  Those who were able weren't willing, much like Yin points out, "many of those still in it didn't want to share their skills or knowledge".  Which is a much nicer way of saying that they fear competition.   And those who were willing weren't able - many couldn't get past the idea of bopping some wet cow and smearing some 'antique' poo on it.  I DID manage to find a guy who draws and sketches incredibly well to do some of the design work for a while so I could tool and color the leather.

These days I see (hear) people watching HOURS and HOURS of videos about sewing two pieces together.  It's a SNARE people... you learn to sew by SEWING.   There's a WHYintheworld video for EVERYTHING... you can learn an entire trade without leaving the house.  Still need to put it into practice (which is called 'experience').

1 hour ago, YinTx said:

the books weren't free... just sayin...  

YinTx

True.  Nor was the leather I destroyed learning to do it.  Also paid for the dyes, paints, threads, tools -- all of which I would have needed anyway.  MOST the books I bought were between $6-20 each.  So if somebody wanted to SHOW me what the book said, instead of me getting my own  book, then I wouldn't have objected to paying somebody that same amount to show me what the book said. 

But that wasn't possible.  The people who were 'doing leather' often didn't have the books, and those who did had basically resigned themselves to doing no more than absolutely necessary to get a dollar for what they called "leather craft" (most of them went the way of "craft shows" and "fairs", where cheap, fast, "commercial grade" leather work is passed off as "craftsmanship".

 

[Lobo]

3 hours ago, JLSleather said:

It took me maybe a month to be making belts nicer than any around me - not YEARS.  By the time I was at it a year, I could DUPLICATE any of the designs in those books I mentioned, and often improved on them.  By the time I'd been tooling a year, I had more work than I could reasonably do by myself. 

I would have been willing to pay someone to help with the requests and orders, but couldn't find anyone who was both able and willing.  Those who were able weren't willing, much like Yin points out, "many of those still in it didn't want to share their skills or knowledge".  Which is a much nicer way of saying that they fear competition.   And those who were willing weren't able - many couldn't get past the idea of bopping some wet cow and smearing some 'antique' poo on it.  I DID manage to find a guy who draws and sketches incredibly well to do some of the design work for a while so I could tool and color the leather.

These days I see (hear) people watching HOURS and HOURS of videos about sewing two pieces together.  It's a SNARE people... you learn to sew by SEWING.   There's a WHYintheworld video for EVERYTHING... you can learn an entire trade without leaving the house.  Still need to put it into practice (which is called 'experience').

True.  Nor was the leather I destroyed learning to do it.  Also paid for the dyes, paints, threads, tools -- all of which I would have needed anyway.  MOST the books I bought were between $6-20 each.  So if somebody wanted to SHOW me what the book said, instead of me getting my own  book, then I wouldn't have objected to paying somebody that same amount to show me what the book said. 

But that wasn't possible.  The people who were 'doing leather' often didn't have the books, and those who did had basically resigned themselves to doing no more than absolutely necessary to get a dollar for what they called "leather craft" (most of them went the way of "craft shows" and "fairs", where cheap, fast, "commercial grade" leather work is passed off as "craftsmanship".

 

+1.  Very well stated.

[JC2019]

Thanks to joining this site I've already found way more resources that I knew existed related to shoe making which is great. I am going to give that $3 a month thing a try too. Now I am still looking for more information about exotic leathers and people who work in that space. I've been told it's not to different than working with other leather but I am not sure. Ruining some of that leather would be a bit more expensive. 

I think I need to go out on my own first and then get a list of problems and questions I encounter and then reconsider paying for instruction at that level.

 

So far I think I have enough for starting with shoes (I purchased the Jason Hovatter DVDs and will be buying others as I go through those).

If anyone has any good resources  on:

- working with exotic leathers.   @RockyAussie  How did you get started? Did you learn under someone or found any helpful guides/books? Trial and error?

- making leather jackets

 

Please let me know.

 

Thank you!

Edited April 28, 2019 by JC2019

[RockyAussie]

On 4/27/2019 at 1:12 AM, JC2019 said:

The other thing I find extremely hard to find even books on  are exotics. 

I cant help you there as I have not seen anything of use to date. That is one of the reasons that I joined this forum in my never ending search to improve where I can.

 

On 4/27/2019 at 1:12 AM, JC2019 said:

I may ask you some questions. I believe you are also interested in 3d printing and lasers (from your album)?

I am happy to answer any questions that may help where ever I can. The 3D printing and the laser are both turned out to be very worthwhile and are something I wish were around 30 years back. They make a lot of the prototyping and moulds etc way less time and costly to make. If there is a little part in a design that could be better it only takes a few minutes to correct. 

If you want to work with exotics as I have done over the last 30 years I would say a visit here would teach you more about working with these skins than any other I know or have heard of. I can only add that we have done more high end Crocodile and perhaps Ostrich than any other manufacturer in Australia for many years. As I said before you are welcome to visit and I would be happy to show you a lot (enough to get you started) for $0. AS far as your interest in shoes I can show you a little but I stopped bespoke making them nearly 20 years back but still have most of the machinery, lasts etc. I found the demand was way to much for me to keep up and the training of people too expensive and time consuming to keep up with it. Wallets purses bags and belts do not require the same level of attention to fit exactly and are therefore way easier train people to make.  Competition in the exotic area is very thin and is a reason that I like to help people to progress in this area. I love competition and when so many are doing such poor work it gets to be unexciting when there is such a low level to try and aspire to. I am sorry if this sounds like I am talking myself up as that is not my intention.

[YinTx]

6 hours ago, JLSleather said:

"fairs", where cheap, fast, "commercial grade" leather work is passed off as "craftsmanship".

This can raise my hackles.  But it seems to be a successful business model, and sells lots of stuff for lower prices.  I am trying to not participate in this market niche if I can manage it.  I don't mind selling lower priced items, but not with shoddy workmanship.

I think if I ever did do an apprenticeship, it would be to learn the things "they don't teach you in books."  So an established individual that understands the business side, the tool side, the machine side, the construction side, supply/demand, materials sourcing, market, marketing, etc would be what I would be seeking to learn.

YinTx

[JC2019]

@RockyAussie  Thanks. I did have some questions that maybe you could help answer. Not sure what the best way to contact you is but here they are:

1) I've read that there are some pretty good prints for alligator belly these days. I thought about getting a few samples to see if I could even tell the difference between the real thing. Do you have any experience with these and any ideas of what leather makes the best prints  (maybe lambskin)? I have even seen some hornback made with cowhide listed on etsy. I want to be as educated about this trade as possible and I think knowing about prints could be important. 

2) I posted a thread about this but I was told by a leather distributor in the USA that it's pretty hard to get the shine / gloss back on a glazed alligator belly once it's gone  dull. I would love to try my hand at restoration even if just to learn more about the material. Any tips on this or ideas? 

Thanks for the offer on training, it is very generous. That will take me more planning and arranging for me.