When can you call yourself a craftsman?

[Handstitched]

G'day,  I've  been in two minds whether to ask this or not . But here goes. 

We all have our areas of particular interest in leather and as and we progressed from humble beginnings, we  later become experienced in some or all of  those areas. 

Some are saddlers, or love making western gear,  some love making belts  or bags  and so on, and some just love making ....well , anything & everything and indeed enjoy the journey .

But at what point can you call yourself a craftsman ?  

The reason I ask it , is because I have taken issue with a particular individual.  I'll explain later ( in quite  lengthy detail) , but in the meantime, your points of view? 

HS 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Handstitched

[fredk]

right, here goes... it can depend where you live. 

I had a friend who is a Gold and Silver Smith. He was legally not allowed to call him a Craftsman in those metals until he had made his Master Piece and it had been positively appraised by the Gold Smiths Guild in London

However, that apart, I reckon its when you enjoy what you do, turn out items to not only the best of your ability but push yourself to do even better on each successive item and sometimes have a break in your heart when you hand that item over to your client

[chrisash]

In the UK basically you can call yourself whatever you want unless it is a protective name buy the old guilds and institutions and even then its debatable if they can stop you apart from using their titles

You can call yourself a accountant, builder, plumer , engineer, scientist, master craftsman, surveyor and so on but you cannot for instance cally yourself a RICS surveyor unless awarded that title by the institute of Royal institute of chartered surveyors

[fredk]

aye chris you are basically correct.

But in that my friend was a Gold Smith, he could not get his own makers stamp unless he was approved by the Guild. The issuance of Gold and Silver Smiths makers stamps is highly regulated.

I mainland Europe in most professions one has to do an apprenticeship, then qualify, then spend a few years as a journeyman before one can call oneself a Craftsman. In the UK no one gives a sod anymore but many professions still insist on you have qualifications.

[Tugadude]

Interesting topic.  I work in the construction industry.  Most trades in my neck of the woods still have unions.  There is a set hierarchy within each union but they all are similar.  A worker begins as an apprentice, sometimes referred to as a "cub".  Then after a certain period of employment and attending classes, they attain the status of journeyman.  Their level of respect increases along with their paycheck.  A journeyman is expected to be able to handle any sort of work which is required for a specific job.  In other words, through training and experience, they should be able to complete a given task in a workmanlike manner no matter what skills are required.

That is the way it used to be.  Nowadays, there are journeymen that do not have complete skillsets.  They get pigeonholed into certain aspects of their craft and may become expert in some skills while neglecting others.

Plasterers are supposed to know how to do interior plaster, both conventional and veneer, stucco, EIFS (Exterior Insulation and Finish Systems) and ornamental plaster.  Those birds are rare.  Most become competent in two or three of those operations.

So in leather, I would think the same "hierarchy" would apply.  There is an apprentice stage, an intermediate stage where maybe you can call yourself a craftsman and then when you have truly mastered all of the necessary skills through training and experience, a master craftsman.

In labor unions there are boards made up of journeymen that judge the progress of the apprentices and later, the development of the new journeymen.  You cannot declare yourself a journeyman, you have to earn it.  There is a timetable for apprenticeship, but if suitable progress is not made by the time your term is up, then you are subject to dismissal.

So to sum it up, in my opinion a craftsman is one who can sit down at a bench and with the proper materials and proper tools construct most any item out of leather and do so in a workmanlike manner.  Perhaps this individual is not keen on making saddles but probably has the skills to do so if need be.  There is always specialization and it is quite rare to find people that excel at every task.  

BTW, my use of the masculine form in many of the terms above is not intended as a slight to the female gender.  I have great respect for women in the trades and in fact have met many who outshone their male counterparts. 

[Tugadude]

BTW, a gentleman that is often lauded for his workmanship and his willingness to help others grow in the craft is Nigel Armitage.  His videos are both enjoyable and informational.  I owe all of whatever stitching knowledge I have to Nigel.

He is seemingly quite proud (and should be) about having attained the level of Master Craftsman.  This link tells about the organization or guild.  There is a requirement that your work pass an assessment and that you uphold certain standards.  Sounds good to me.

https://www.guildmc.com/about-us/a-sign-of-quality/

[JLSleather]

Tuesdays.  I think you should call yourself a "craftsman" on TUESDAYS.  And sometimes on Saturday.

Point being... you'd have to DEFINE "craftsman". According to one dictionary, a "craftsman" is "a person who is skilled in a particular craft".  So, who or what is "skilled"? 

Art is too subjective to rigidly define.  I admit it... I see things for sale EVERY DAY that you couldn't PAY me to carry to the landfill for you.  It's THAT badly done.  I have personally THROWN AWAY items I did BETTER than that, but tossed them out as unacceptable work.  BUT somebody BUYS those things I'm talking about.  By DEFINITION, a "professional" is someone who gets paid for what he does.  So, can you be a "professional" WITHOUT being a "craftsman"?

I've always had a problem with the idea that the length of time you've been doing a thing has anything to do with how good you are at it.  I personally have met a lot of people who have done one thing for 20 years and STILL SUCK at it.  AND I know people who are brand new to something they decided to like and showed a genuine talent at it - far surpassing some with "20 years in" .  One guy in the tool and die "trade" had nearly 30 years on the job.  Turns out, he was there because he was one of the first in the department there.  He knew how to get through a day THERE, but wouldn't pass a proficiency test ANYWHERE else, and after 30 years of learning nothing new, basically kept his job simply because the union said you can't fire him unless he goes on a shooting spree through the building.  End result, he was one of the highest paid, but the least skilled.

And I don't personally think it's about the number - or range - of skills a person has.  You don't need to know everything there is to know about belts to be a skilled belt maker.  Nor do you need to know how to design sundry types of wallets to be a very good belt maker.

So having thought for a minute, I'm gonna say you are a craftsman when that craft is what you do the majority of the time.  If you install or fix roofs, you are a "roofer".  If you work on plumbing, you are a "plumber".  ANd if you craft.... 

 

 

[mrwatch]

A friend asked at my wood carving club, said I've sold a couple of my walking sticks. Does that make me a professional? I was told as for photography,  and replied when it become 50% of your income. Not sure if just an opinion. I also found that potential employers here in the states don't give much thought to all of the mail order home study courses. 

[Handstitched]

Well , this is interesting  . 

Also, is a craftsman defined by the quality of the work? And/ or by staying true to the craft? 

 

Thank you all for your responses so far . 

HS

[Hildebrand]

If this individual is putting out sub par work and using the title "craftsman" generally the problem will take care of itself as he will run out of customers for sub par work.  If you are concerned he may be taking your customers just based on title I suspect if he is that will be short lived if his product is subpar, word will spread quickly.  The longer I am on this earth the more I choose to concern myself with the things I can change and let the other stuff work itself out.  Just my $.02.

Todd

[YinTx]

5 hours ago, Handstitched said:

 I'll explain later ( in quite  lengthy detail)

Awaiting explanation before I toss in a pointless opinion...

4 hours ago, chrisash said:

You can call yourself a accountant, builder, plumer , engineer, scientist, master craftsman, surveyor

Not so here.  Most of those require a license, and in some instances a degree.  I know individuals who have interviewed and worked as engineers, and were found out later to have not acquired a Bachelors of Science in said field.  It was not pretty.  If you work on something that required a PE (Professional Engineers's) stamp, with out said credentials, jail time is not out of the question.  Many states the law requires you to prominently display your acquired degree and licensing in your place of employment.  You do plumbing etc in a building not under a licensed plumber, bad news.  If I'm paying an accountant, I would expect them to be credentialed.

So with all this, I've seen folks call themselves "Master (leatherworking skill of something or another)" and have wondered how they came to acquire such titles.  In some of those cases, it seemed self-adorned, especially when observing the quality of the work.  I have no official training, have not passed any tests, nor have I been endowed with any such titles by any entity, and so I merely refer to myself as a leather worker.  Perhaps I am short changing myself, but I'd really prefer not to mislead.

YinTx

[JLSleather]

19 minutes ago, YinTx said:

In some of those cases, it seemed self-adorned, especially when observing the quality of the work

  Yup.  Not very popular to say these days, but.... yeah.

21 minutes ago, Hildebrand said:

I suspect if he is that will be short lived if his product is subpar, word will spread quickly.

I don't think that's the case any more.  Do a search on ebay and you'll find folks making $39 holsters... and selling THOUSANDS of them.  Hideous, poorly designed, and badly executed.  Still, $25 profit... 10,000 times... pretty good chunk of easy money.  I would NOT call him / them / whatever a "craftsman", and yet .... they still there.

It seems that many these days are more interested in FAST and CHEAP than about quality or beauty.  Each his own, I suppose.

Edited July 17, 2019 by JLSleather

[Tugadude]

19 minutes ago, YinTx said:

Awaiting explanation before I toss in a pointless opinion...

Not so here.  Most of those require a license, and in some instances a degree.  I know individuals who have interviewed and worked as engineers, and were found out later to have not acquired a Bachelors of Science in said field.  It was not pretty.  If you work on something that required a PE (Professional Engineers's) stamp, with out said credentials, jail time is not out of the question.  Many states the law requires you to prominently display your acquired degree and licensing in your place of employment.  You do plumbing etc in a building not under a licensed plumber, bad news.  If I'm paying an accountant, I would expect them to be credentialed.

So with all this, I've seen folks call themselves "Master (leatherworking skill of something or another)" and have wondered how they came to acquire such titles.  In some of those cases, it seemed self-adorned, especially when observing the quality of the work.  I have no official training, have not passed any tests, nor have I been endowed with any such titles by any entity, and so I merely refer to myself as a leather worker.  Perhaps I am short changing myself, but I'd really prefer not to mislead.

YinTx

Yes, without the backing of an organization, institution, union or guild, it is self-adornment.  With the others there is at least the appearance of if not actual assessment and adherence to standards.

1 hour ago, Handstitched said:

Well , this is interesting  . 

Also, is a craftsman defined by the quality of the work? And/ or by staying true to the craft? 

 

Thank you all for your responses so far . 

HS

Yes, if you look at the verbiage in the link I posted, there is an expectation of respect for the craft and the quality of workmanship. 

[Tugadude]

Members of the Guild of Master Craftsmen are required to maintain our Aims and Objectives, or membership will be revoked.

These are:

1. To bring together all artisans engaged in a craft, art, trade, profession or vocation, in order to safeguard the interests of both craftsmen and the public.
2. To ensure that the minimum qualifications for membership preserve the high standards of The Guild by excluding unskilled tradesmen.
3. To publicise these high standards through national and local media, thus increasing public awareness of the ideals and aims of The Guild and its members.
4. To promote to the public the trading assets of its members, their honour, integrity, professional expertise, high standards of workmanship and the value for money which they offer.
5. To provide clear identification and recognition for members, in order to enable the public to distinguish them from unskilled tradesmen who try to pass themselves off as master craftsmen, and so to attract and direct work to members of The Guild.
6. To assist all members and to protect them against the damaging and devaluing activities of the unskilled, against bureaucratic discrimination, against penal taxation and adverse legislation. Equally, to protect the public by instilling in our members a greater sense of responsibility, alerting them to the national importance of the services they render, monitoring these standards to ensure that The Guild’s high standards are being maintained, and by encouraging members to always strive for excellence.
7. To encourage an interchange of views amongst members, to unite these views and to bring them to the attention of the Government and local authorities in order to safeguard the livelihood and welfare of members and their dependants.
8. To constitute a pressure group to seek the support of one or more Members of Parliament to make sure that someone speaks out for the interests of Guild members where it matters most.
9. To promote continual research within the craft, trade, art, profession or vocation in which members are engaged, thus benefitting both members and the public. 
10. To foster learning amongst apprentices and students in order to perpetuate the survival, evolution and success of their particular craft. 
11. To promote sponsorship of The Guild by persons, firms and organisations, whether by financial support, by endorsement of the activities of The Guild, or by patronage.

[LatigoAmigo]

I may be saying this because I will never be a full-time leather crafter, nor will I ever apprentice under someone to expand my skill set. I just like "doing" leather work and having fun. But if someone is simply willing to buy your hand-crafted leather product, you might very well be able to consider yourself a "crafts-person."

[JLSleather]

2 hours ago, LatigoAmigo said:

if someone is simply willing to buy your hand-crafted leather product, you might very well be able to consider yourself a "crafts-person."

Yup, gonna go with that. Even then, I try to keep in mind that I decide what I call ME.  Next guy's tag or title is on him

 

[chrisash]

We have organisations like this in the Uk , I don't know about yours but some in the uk have no professional qualifications to entry, give you the title master craftsman and some rules that may or maynot be adhered to, and the purpose of many is to collect fees and make the owner a lot of money, so basically as long as you are willing to pay you are welcome to join

Others have very stiff exams to pass taking anything from about 3 years to maybe 7 years and demand quality with those not obeying the rules thrown out

I understand that Germany has incredibly hard guids and you need to join one to trade

[Firewalker]

It seems like "craftsman" is a label that other people call you but you don't really call yourself.  In the most pure sense of the word if you have built, made, crafted anything you are a craftsman.  I also agree there are many who fit this title that are not that skilled at it.  I too have wondered where the title comes from when you read "master leather worker" and I would also assume the title was given to an individual by their guild or maybe it is after receiving an award or some other high level recognition by an organization.  I also agree with Jeff regarding someone doing xyz "for 40 years" yet it is still not in line with what you would consider decent work.  I work in the medical field as my "day job" and I have encountered MANY people who justify their technique with their years of experience.  I have been the bearer of bad news on occasion by letting them know they have been doing it incorrectly for x amount of years.  I do not do this just to bash someone but I will do it if a patient's safety is at risk.

The use of craftsman is too generic to get too bent out of shape over IMO.  I have only done this for a couple of years this month and I am quite happy with the items I make and sell a lot of them.  Does it make me some sort or craftsman, guru, master?  Nope, I am just a guy who loves working leather, pushing my limits, still making mistakes and trying to get better every day.  No label required for me.

Be well all,

Scott

[Handstitched]

Okay, this is the reason I posed this question . 

At a regular market I’ve attended for 13 years,where I’ve been the only leather worker all that time,  I spotted someone making   ' hand made belts'  ,assembling belts on the spot,    but he is quoted as a ' highly skilled craftsman'   &  ' craftsman' .

At first I felt a little threatened, and a bit peeved as business is hard enough as it is, but more  insulted than anything else  . I don’t even call myself a ‘ craftsman ‘, I personally don't feel I  have earned that title . I call myself a 'leather worker', but not a craftsman .  What people call me is their choice, mostly ' the leather man' . ( however,  I' m happy to accept 'over weight'  or ' short & fat '     )   

 I felt  much better that evening when my gut instinct kicked in and  I took the time to check what he was making on his web page, (and some support from my good ol' Mum )  .  Sure, he was making some ‘nice belts’ with nice buckles etc. , but when I zoomed in, I could see that they were unfinished , IMO anyway  . Although the belts were cut out on a press, thats  normal, but  they  were un-bevelled , no burnishing,I could see fibres sticking out all over the place, (  my Mum spotted that  )   no edge dying,  2.8-3.0mm chrome tanned  leather thats not dyed all the way through on some colours ( you can clearly  see the blue/ grey along the edge) , and what belts did have patterns were done using a roller press, and twice the price of what I charge  for a well crafted belt using 4mm & 5mm  veg tan leathers  utilising skills I learnt from Al Stohlman  and other respected master craftsman and indeed  this web site   All he was doing was cutting them out and attaching a buckle…and that’s it.

And that deserves the title of ' craftsman ' ? 

I appreciate that when you’re making large volumes of belts it may not always be possible  to bevel , burnish etc.  each & every one. 

But forgive me if I sound like I'm just having a whinge or blowing smoke, but I also feel like I'm protecting the integrity of the craft. 

18 hours ago, Hildebrand said:

If this individual is putting out sub par work and using the title "craftsman" generally the problem will take care of itself as he will run out of customers for sub par work.  If you are concerned he may be taking your customers just based on title I suspect if he is that will be short lived if his product is subpar, word will spread quickly.

You hit the nail on the head. Thats pretty much what my Mum said .  

Thank you all so much for your input  

HS 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Handstitched

[chuck123wapati]

Calling yourself a craftsman is easy, its when others call you a craftsman that is the defining moment I think.

[fredk]

20 hours ago, Hildebrand said:

If this individual is putting out sub par work and using the title "craftsman" generally the problem will take care of itself as he will run out of customers for sub par work. 

I differ; no he won't. In this 21st C age he will gain more and more business - that is my experience, not only in leather work but also in wooden toy making and furniture making with my father. Add the words 'Craft' or 'Artisan' to anything these days and the ordinary buying folk become blind to the quality of the product - in this I speak with knowledge. eg a coffee shop not far me; did coffees, teas and sticky buns. Was losing out to a big chain one newly opened. On advice the shop 'rebranded' as 'Artisan' Coffee, and pushed that their stickies were all home-baked, ie in shop. Turned their fortunes around inside 3 weeks! Still the same doing inside, they made very little changes to how they did anything - it was the branding 'Artisan'

2 hours ago, Handstitched said:

At first I felt a little threatened, and a bit peeved as business is hard enough as it is, but more  insulted than anything else  . I don’t even call myself a ‘ craftsman ‘, I personally don't feel I  have earned that title . I call myself a 'leather worker', but not a craftsman .  What people call me is their choice, mostly ' the leather man' . 

sorry, I'm going to hit you between the eyes,

Do feel threatened. Work to get rid of that threat. Call yourself an Experienced Craftsman or something. Push and push and push your quality over his. If you don't he'll be taking business away from you. I speak from experience, below a tale of woe;

I used to be the only leatherworker selling 'medieval' style leather goods at craft fairs here in N.I. Then comes along a guy, calls himself the 'Medieval Leather Crafter'. His work was .  . . rubbish. And dearer than mine. I made items to the patterns supplied by museums etc, his were literally just scraps roughly sewn together. I and my Mrs thought he'll drop way, so I basically ignored his rubbish. Guess wot happened. I was dropped by the craft centres and castles and museums as my stuff was not 'historically accurate' compared to the interloper. I lost out to him because I ignored the threat of sub-standard work but someone more pushy than me

[kiwican]

Just to add my 2 cents here. I think it's a mistake to confuse craftsmanship with marketing and spin. Many many fine and skilled people don't do well in any number of fields simply because they are not spin doctors or skilled in marketing. I love to go to fairs and such like. I was at one this winter and a lady was selling her father's hand made belts. Starting at about 120.00 for the plain ones and drifting north of 200.00 for the tooled ones. These belts were shocking. Uneven unfinished rough as guts. I asked how long the maker had been in business and was told he had been doing it for 39 years. I'm not skilled at leather work but the first belt I ever made was considerably better than these. These belts were selling like hot cakes too. Spin matters. Words matter. Seems that skill often takes a back seat 

[Handstitched]

You know, I had this little personal  saying , just for me, just for my own motivation I guess  , " the only person I compete with is myself"  sounds a bit silly I know,  but   I vowed never to try and compete  with anyone. 

1 hour ago, fredk said:

Work to get rid of that threat

But these days,  seems like I have to up the ante here . This thought went through my mind these past few days . I thought about putting a lot more of my ' fancier stuff'  on display at my stall  for people to see and make more ' fancy stuff '  than I normally would .  I've already started that. I shouldn't have to  and I have never done so in the past....but....times have changed .  We'll see how long  this " sub par" individual will last.   All this will inspire me to do my best work yet and make stuff I have never made before , like  ' fredk '  said " Work to get rid of that threat" . 

Thanks to all  

HS 

 

[fredk]

I'm not the best one to give advice on what you should or could do.

Perhaps signage saying how many years experience you have, something like  'Hand crafting leather since 2006' or  ' . . . for over 14 years' **  ~  'Every item carefully fully made and finished by hand by the craftsman himself' ~ 'Guaranteed made in Australia by a local expert craftsman of over 14 years experience'  Maybe?

Design and either get printed or print up yourself (computer printer?) some A5 sized handouts with photos of a few items and short concise explanations of how you see to quality. They will pay for themselves in the long term.

I don't think you need to improve your work or change what you make (as a member on here, I reckon we can take your quality for granted,  ) but you may need to increase your marketing and pushing yourself in the craft fair. 

When I was a working photographer I had a friend, also a photographer. He once said to me ' We are friends, but when it comes to business I intend to wipe you out and I expect you do the same to me, and we will both be wiping out every other photographer in the area' and he mean't it. Alls fair in love, war and business.

**Local home bakery near to me. Not long open, just about 1 year, has recently added 'Making quality home baking since 2014' ~ thats only 4 or 5 years yet I know some local women are impressed that the bakery has been producing for 'that long!' I think the people running the bakery shop started off literally at home.

[chrisash]

This is the answer by Fredk

Perhaps signage saying how many years experience you have, something like  'Hand crafting leather since 2006' or  ' . . . for over 14 years' **  ~  'Every item carefully fully made and finished by hand by the craftsman himself' ~ 'Guaranteed made in Australia by a local expert craftsman of over 14 years experience'  Maybe?

Design and either get printed or print up yourself (computer printer?) some A5 sized handouts with photos of a few items and short concise explanations of how you see to quality. They will pay for themselves in the long term.

I don't think you need to improve your work or change what you make (as a member on here, I reckon we can take your quality for granted,  ) but you may need to increase your marketing and pushing yourself in the craft fair.

 

Educate your potential customers to quality and what to look for

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by chrisash