vanessaFrance Report post Posted July 31, 2019 Hello everyone, I bought what I thought was a used genuine Pfaff 335 from a reseller based in Marseille, France, only to figure out months later that the machine was actually a typical TW3-P335 made to look like a Pfaff : fake serial number plate, fake Pfaff lettering... Looking closely, one can even read the word "Typical" on a plastic cover, which obviously couldn't be completely erased. I am about to confront the seller and try to obtain compensation, but before I do so I'd like to pick the brains of the esteemed members of this forum : 1) is there a way to identify beyond doubt a genuine Pfaff sewing machine ? The serial number plate on mine is a fake one, so it would have to be something that can't be altered, like a marking on the machine's body. Pfaff boasts they put a counterfeit-proof sticker on their machines, but as you could expect there is no such sticker on mine. 2) reciprocally, is there a way to identify beyond doubt a Typical sewing machine ? The plastic cover bearing the erased "Typical" word can be easily removed, so again I was hoping for something more solid, like an engraving on the machine body, or a particular feature that would be Typical's signature 3) How good (or bad) exactly are Typical sewing machines ? At first I thought they were just low quality "copycats", but having searched the forums on this website, it seems they are pretty decent. That won't change anything to the fact I've been cheated on badly, but at least I'll know the extent of the scam... I'm not sure whether there are French members on this site, but if you happen to be in France and looking at buying a professional sewing machine for a reseller in Marseille, feel free to send me a PM. Cheers, Vanessa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marronne Report post Posted July 31, 2019 Hello Vanessa Sorry to hear about this - I can only imagine how you feel!. I'm in France (based in Orne, Normandy). I'm into the vintage bourrellier and sellier leather machines but should I come across anyone looking for a more modern one, I'll tell them to watch out! There is an English leatherworker chap in Brittany I think, who is also on this forum but his username escapes me for the moment. I shall follow your post, it would be interesting to hear about the distributor's reaction/response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisash Report post Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) Did you buy it as new or secondhand, if secondand the retailer may not be aware or responsible for the forgery, they may have just brought in good faith, but still responsible i guess Have you checked the serial number with Pfaff Images may help identifying it Sorry to hear the bad news, it must be a great disappointment to have found out after the happiness of first acquiring it Edited July 31, 2019 by chrisash speelling mistook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted July 31, 2019 51 minutes ago, marronne said: Sorry to hear about this - I can only imagine how you feel!. I totally agree. For the rest of us could you post a couple of pictures highlighting what you are seeing. It could be of great value for anyone in the market for a similar machine. 1 hour ago, vanessaFrance said: That won't change anything to the fact I've been cheated on badly, but at least I'll know the extent of the scam... The deception my go even deeper. The reseller my have been also duped. If a clone sells for $100 and a brand name sells for $300 some not so good people will try to dupe people. kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Constabulary Report post Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) Most likely these machine all come from the same factory in China (Pfaff, Mauser, Typical, Global... and so forth) just with a badge of the specific "Name owner". Pfaff no longer produces these machines in Germany - if that matters. So quality wise I doubt there is a big difference between the "Names" ( I do not say manufactures). Some pictures would be nice. Edited July 31, 2019 by Constabulary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanessaFrance Report post Posted July 31, 2019 55 minutes ago, chrisash said: Did you buy it as new or secondhand, if secondand the retailer may not be aware or responsible for the forgery, they may have just brought in good faith, but still responsible i guess Have you checked the serial number with Pfaff Images may help identifying it Sorry to hear the bad news, it must be a great disappointment to have found out after the happiness of first acquiring it I bought it as as second hand, however the retailer also runs a repair shop, so I think it is safe to assume he's had enough sewing machines in his hands to tell one brand from another... And as you rightly point out, under French law at least, he is responsible. The serial number format does not match Pfaff's for the 335, so I didn't even care to call them. I'll post pictures in a forthcoming message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanessaFrance Report post Posted July 31, 2019 Here you go... The first picture is actually the plastic cover on the left of the machine. I had trouble finding the right angle, but if you look closely you'll see the letters "ICAL"... The picture doesn't show the other letters, but looking closely at the cover one can easily read "Typical". The second picture is the serial number plate, which I figure is Typical's original plate : part of the model name was erased (probably the letters "PW3"), and "PFAFF" was added in big red letters just above. You can even see that the paint on the machine body was scratched when the plate was removed. It may look plain to see, but I can assure you that unless all those details are pointed out to you, they're hard to spot. Other than that, as you can see from the two remaining pictures, the machine resembles a LOT the actual Pfaff 335. It even came with a user manual which I found out to be for the Typical clone (it's available online), with the pages showing the actual brand name removed. Pretty elaborate, isn't it ? I read somewhere that Pfaff has their sewing machine made in China, but whether they are made in the same factory as the other brands (as assumed by Constabulary) remains uncertain to me. If anyone can substantiate that hypothesis, I'd be interested... We went to the police earlier today : they suggested that we confront the reseller and file a complaint if he refuses to admit and compensate us. I'm in the process of gathering evidence, hoping it will be compelling enough that the guy has no choice but to acknowledge the machine is a fake, and compensate me. Falling victim to such a fraud is definitely not the best way to start your own leatherwork business... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisash Report post Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) If you look close at the Pfaff name the outside paint is over the p and also the last f, which makes me think its been repainted and the scrapped the pain off the letters Very strange and a bit of a bodge job on the label plate Edited July 31, 2019 by chrisash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimi Report post Posted July 31, 2019 Sorry to hear that vanessa, if it is any help, on the older 335´s they have pfaff and the p/n stamped on the feet, needle plate, feed dog and some other parts. With your machine being the newer type i would think they would not have changed these parts for wear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted July 31, 2019 3 hours ago, Constabulary said: Pfaff no longer produces these machines in Germany - if that matters. So quality wise I doubt there is a big difference between the "Names" ( I do not say manufactures). From what I read online PFAFF are now owned by SVP Worldwide, a Kohlberg Holding company with their machines now being made in Asian countries. Quality will depend I guess on the actual manufacturer, only time will tell. However the cost between a PFFAF badged and others I would suspect to be fairly substantial (machine/parts/accessories). kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Constabulary Report post Posted July 31, 2019 yeah - someone definitely tried to "Pfaffirize" it! Not very well done - obviously. I would be pissed too! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SolarLeatherMachines Report post Posted July 31, 2019 Wow. That's awful. I hope it gets resolved very quickly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blue62 Report post Posted July 31, 2019 That's to bad it's misrepresented, but does it do what you need it to do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanessaFrance Report post Posted July 31, 2019 1 hour ago, blue62 said: That's to bad it's misrepresented, but does it do what you need it to do? Well, I've frequently had trouble winding the bobbin, to a point that the bobbin winder does not rotate anymore. I discovered the fraud while investigating this problem. Other than that the machine has done an OK job so far... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blue62 Report post Posted July 31, 2019 At least it sews, and you can use it, the built in bobbin winder on my Adler slips and doesn't work very well either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanessaFrance Report post Posted July 31, 2019 Thanks to everyone for their help... the parts pictures showing the engravings were particularly helpful !!!! Even though they just serve to confirm my machine is definitely not a genuine Pfaff... I don't know about the countries you live in, but it seems forged professional sewing machines are commonplace on classified ads website... Too bad I had to learn it the hard way. Anyway Friday should bring answers, since this is when we're going to the store and confront the owner. As you can imagine my boyfriend is just as pissed as I am, so we're in for some tense moments... I will keep you posted ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimi Report post Posted July 31, 2019 God luck Vanessa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) If you are going Friday, and if you are still up and about this Wednesday evening..Before you go, I might be able to give you a few things to do / say, which may help you get your money back ( only take cash )..Depends on how good your, or your boyfriend's French ( spoken , don't worry for now about written ) is, as to what the advice will be.. IME when I ask that ..most Brits says theirs is good, usually turns out to be far from the case..so be honest.. as in do you watch French TV, do you laugh ( because you understand them completely ) at Jamel's sketches..? Also which "police" did you go to ..Municipale or Nationale ?..Gendarmerie normally do not cover Marseille* , unless your dealer is "dans la brousse" outside of Marseille**. *Otherwise known as "den of iniquity 13 in the sun" .. Love the movies Mr Besson :) **Before we moved up here ( my wife is Breton ) we spent 20 years in the PACA..Cannes, Golfe Juan, St Tropez, Port Cogolin, Port Grimaud..Draguignan..I know Marseille well. Of course if you are French with very good written English, or your boyfriend is French ? It will be much easier to advise you what to say, do. Edited July 31, 2019 by mikesc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted July 31, 2019 3 hours ago, blue62 said: That's to bad it's misrepresented, but does it do what you need it to do? The OP wanted and bought what she thought was a genuine PFAFF. Otherwise she would probably have bought a Clone for probably less money. I hope this comes a good resolution. Makes us all aware of what to look for in general when purchasing a machine, new or used. The Clone casing is a pretty good exterior representation of the original machine which is probably made for several different Clone suppliers under different badges. kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanessaFrance Report post Posted August 1, 2019 11 hours ago, mikesc said: If you are going Friday, and if you are still up and about this Wednesday evening..Before you go, I might be able to give you a few things to do / say, which may help you get your money back ( only take cash )..Depends on how good your, or your boyfriend's French ( spoken , don't worry for now about written ) is, as to what the advice will be.. IME when I ask that ..most Brits says theirs is good, usually turns out to be far from the case..so be honest.. as in do you watch French TV, do you laugh ( because you understand them completely ) at Jamel's sketches..? Also which "police" did you go to ..Municipale or Nationale ?..Gendarmerie normally do not cover Marseille* , unless your dealer is "dans la brousse" outside of Marseille**. *Otherwise known as "den of iniquity 13 in the sun" .. Love the movies Mr Besson **Before we moved up here ( my wife is Breton ) we spent 20 years in the PACA..Cannes, Golfe Juan, St Tropez, Port Cogolin, Port Grimaud..Draguignan..I know Marseille well. Of course if you are French with very good written English, or your boyfriend is French ? It will be much easier to advise you what to say, do. I'm actually French, but use my boyfriend's English command to interact with you guys ! I went to the gendarmerie nearest to my place, and was pleasantly surprised at their willingness to help and give advice. In Marseille I'll have to go to the police, and it will be a whole different story there... Anyway thanks for offering to help. I will PM you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanessaFrance Report post Posted August 1, 2019 A quick update : I explained my problem on a French-language forum (cuir-creation, for you French speakers out there), and got contacted by a very helpful and knowledegeable gentleman who confirmed my machine is a fake, selling for approximately 30% less under its original brand. I provided him with a link to my seller's online store on "Le Bon Coin" (kind of a French version of Craig's List), and guess what ? It didn't take him long to spot a picture of a fake Durkopp Adler splitter. DA doesn't even make splitters, according to him. Which goes to show the guy is probably a "professional" crook, and will make my case a more compelling one : the police will probably treat the case more diligently if they realize he is a "chain-forger"... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted August 1, 2019 (edited) You need to threaten them with the DGCCRF https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F34284 and maybe mention that you'll talk to the BCR / BCF Marseille region, ( brigade de contrôle fiscal.."fisc" for short ) I have friend who is their head here for le 22.. Most business owners are terrified of getting on the wrong side of the DGCCRF ( the paperwork will drown them ) they will prosecute if he does not refund you, the publicity would be very bad for his business..Also if you bought via "le bon coin" or similar, threaten to report him for fraud and selling contrefaçon..They would kill his account..He would not want that.. BCF or BCR..they ( and an investigation by them are any businesses worst nightmare in France, especially as most businesses ( especially in the South ) will be making around 10 to 20 % of their income as undeclared cash ( Black ) ..When ever I visit Jean-Mi, his phones are ringing constantly with people denouncing businesses for not declaring money to the fisc or to the URSSAF.. and l'URSSAF for good measure. URSSAF is the other leg of the nightmare for French businesses, being investigated by them ( you'd just have to tell them that you saw cash changing hands while you were at his premises ..same for the BCF/ BCR .. Mention that you will be contacting all those organisms, if you don't get your money back, cash .. adding.."Ce serait dommage si"... ( you could hum a few bars of the Dalida song of that name to him, ask him if he knows it ..to drive the point home ) .. :) Bon Chance Edit..you posted re Cuir-creation while I was typing ( good forum ) ..In the light of what you have found..( take some screen shots ) definitely visit the dealer as per my suggestions.. I'm reading your thread at cuir-creation now. What does your facture ( receipt say ) say ?..Ok belay that..I read "la bas" that it is a "bon d'achat" which says Pfaff 335. I agree with most of the people on that cuir creation thread..ex specially with the comments by Sellier42..bear in mind that contacting the BCR /BCF, URSSAF and DGCCRF will cost you nothing..I notice also that it was the Gendarmerie, that is fortunate as the Munis are a waste of space and air, and the Nats are a similar waste of effort talking to, for this kind of thing..Gendarmerie carry more weight, and put some fear ( but not as much as the others that I've mentioned BCF/ BCR and URSSSAF ) into les escrocs ( crooks ).. You have to be quick with the DDPP and the DDCSPP.. or they'll change the name and the acronyms again to something even longer and harder to remember.. ;) https://www.economie.gouv.fr/dgccrf/coordonnees-des-DDPP-et-DDCSPP Edited August 1, 2019 by mikesc Spelling / typos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisash Report post Posted August 1, 2019 (edited) I brought on EBay a pen that has a video recorder built into it and is not at all obvious, it cost about £20, it might be worth finding something similar to have on you when you visit and get a record of all that was discussed in case you get no satisfaction and need to go further to court Clipped onto your handbag or boy friends top pocket you can have clear pictures and sound ps did you pay be credit card in which case you could do a chargeback under not as described Edited August 1, 2019 by chrisash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
