Is this wrinkling normal for a dual layer belt?

[patrick2099]

I bought a belt with a horse hide exterior and bull hide interior layer. The look and feel of the belt is a total work of art, except for the end. The end looks very wrinkled. None of the belts on the website (Beltman Belts) look like this. 

I was hoping to get an expert opinion on whether this was normal, for dual layer belts, or an anomaly. 

 

Thanks for the help. 

[fredk]

That is pretty much normal

A true belt making expert can make a belt in which this hardly happens but those experts are hard to find

PS. I'm assuming that is the inside. If its the outside then, no it shouldn't look like that

Edited August 19, 2019 by fredk

[JLSleather]

You use the word "normal".... which can mean either normal - "common" or normal- "inevitable"

That GRAIN SEPARATION is COMMON, but is not INEVITABLE.  You see it frequently, but it's unacceptable.  That is not compression wrinkling (which you see commonly on the back of poorly done holsters).  That has actually had the grain layer of the leather distorted - the leather lacks density.  For my money, the supplier would get that one BACK. 

 

[patrick2099]

26 minutes ago, fredk said:

That is pretty much normal

A true belt making expert can make a belt in which this hardly happens but those experts are hard to find

PS. I'm assuming that is the inside. If its the outside then, no it shouldn't look like that

That is the outside. If it was the inside, I probably wouldn't care. This belt was close to $130, because it was a large horsehide belt. Thanks for the info. 

[patrick2099]

10 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

You use the word "normal".... which can mean either normal - "common" or normal- "inevitable"

That GRAIN SEPARATION is COMMON, but is not INEVITABLE.  You see it frequently, but it's unacceptable.  That is not compression wrinkling (which you see commonly on the back of poorly done holsters).  That has actually had the grain layer of the leather distorted - the leather lacks density.  For my money, the supplier would get that one BACK. 

 

I meant common, as there were pictures of belts where this wasn't the case. If it is common, I'd probably rather have a refund. If it is inevitable, I'd have to decide whether to stick with a single layer belt, or deal with the wrinkles. I know that nothing handmade will be flawless, but I wasn't expecting this after what I had paid for the belt. Thanks for the help. 

[JLSleather]

Just now, patrick2099 said:

I meant common, as there were pictures of belts where this wasn't the case. If it is common, I'd probably rather have a refund. If it is inevitable, I'd have to decide whether to stick with a single layer belt, or deal with the wrinkles. I know that nothing handmade will be flawless, but I wasn't expecting this after what I had paid for the belt. Thanks for the help. 

It's common because there are SO many out there making things to sell.  NOt all of them know what they are doing, and not all of them assume that YOU will know the difference (buyer beware).  I don't know if that's "normal" for that business or not.

If something is handmade, it should be BETTER than one that isn't.  IF it's not, then WHY pay more?@!  HAND MADE means each should have been individually inspected for quality.  This one clearly was not.

TO be clear, making a belt dual layer does NOT make it wrinkle. Any time you bend something you will have tension on teh outside and compression on the inside.  But that in your picture is a LEATHER QUALITY issue, not a curve issue.

 

[fredk]

 wot he says, JLS knows what he's talking about here

Send it back

[patrick2099]

Thanks everyone. I sent pictures to the manufacturer, and they are going to replace the belt. I didn't want to request that if it was normal. The owner was very responsive, and didn't give me hassle, but it would be nice if this would have been inspected, prior to shipping.

 

The level of detail that went into the rest of this belt, and trying to fix a different  belt with some rough edges has definitely gotten me interested in leather craft. It's good to know there are knowledgeable, helpful people on this forum. Thanks again, everyone. 

[robs456]

8 hours ago, patrick2099 said:

None of the belts on the website (Beltman Belts) look like this.

Actually, a few do. But not on that scale though. Seems like they use either bad leather, too dry leather or too hard stitching strength. Or a combo.
Maybe the machine sewers here can school me/us if the wrinkling could be the result of wrong settings on a machine?  

[Riem]

On 8/19/2019 at 3:21 PM, JLSleather said:

You use the word "normal".... which can mean either normal - "common" or normal- "inevitable"

That GRAIN SEPARATION is COMMON, but is not INEVITABLE.  You see it frequently, but it's unacceptable.  That is not compression wrinkling (which you see commonly on the back of poorly done holsters).  That has actually had the grain layer of the leather distorted - the leather lacks density.  For my money, the supplier would get that one BACK. 

 

@JLSleather I just need to say your distinction between "normal-common" and "normal-inevitable" is precious! Now that's what I call discernment - the knowledgetto know the difference and then true skill of being able to pick the fly specks from the pepper... And I mean it as a compliment!

 

[JLSleather]

Well, 'preciatecha.. but I just meant that jus cuz it is often done doesn't mean it's SUPPOSED TO be that way

[chiefjason]

That's a solid name in the belt game, but they also changed hands in the last couple years as the original owner retried IIRC.  My guess, that's a piece of leather that looked good and didn't have a lot of signs of it being soft.  But it was.  Likely got cut too close to the belly or it will sometimes happen towards the ends of an otherwise good section of leather.  Glad they are taking care of you.  

[patrick2099]

On 8/20/2019 at 6:04 PM, chiefjason said:

That's a solid name in the belt game, but they also changed hands in the last couple years as the original owner retried IIRC.  My guess, that's a piece of leather that looked good and didn't have a lot of signs of it being soft.  But it was.  Likely got cut too close to the belly or it will sometimes happen towards the ends of an otherwise good section of leather.  Glad they are taking care of you.  

I saw that it changed hands, and that did kind of worry me. Hopefully the next one is better. If not, I'll have to try someone else. 

[Doc Reaper]

Okay y'all, Ive seen this come from my own work bench. This belt (that is shown) was laying flat when it was glued together then sewn. Or it was sewn on a flat table. Either way it was flat when it was constructed. the quality of leather doesn't matter when building a belt that only has one outside and one inside. When starting the dual leather belt either place it on its side in the shape of the letter O, start in the center and work towards one end, then return to the middle and finish adhering the other half. I have the Cowboy 4500 and i lay the inside over the arm and start in the middle and work to the end and then return to the middle and attach the other half, I also use wax paper to keep the contact cement separated until I'm ready  to place the sides together. While I'm sewing the glued sides together the "belt" stays curved or arched.

Much like the way the inside of a wallet is smaller, the inside of a duel sided leather belt is slightly smaller. It doesn't matter how good the leather is, ti just needs to be placed correctly with the right amount of thread tension. Try doing it using the arch method, Glue it together using a hose hanger or the side of a waste paper basket. If you don't do this { or some form of it) you will have a dimpled belt interior!

[chrisash]

Doc , he did state it was the outside not the inside layer, but your method sounds very reasonable

Edited August 23, 2019 by chrisash

[RockyAussie]

Just a comment for what its worth....I have for many many years always sewn my belts on a post mostly or a cylinder machine for this very reason.

I should say though that I think the problem here is the leather itself and it has a loose top layer. If you push your finger firmly along it you can see the skin move along like a wave. When you are doing a lot it can catch sometimes and sometimes it is not visible until the belt is bent one way or the other.

Edited August 23, 2019 by RockyAussie
second thought to add.

[JLSleather]

1 hour ago, RockyAussie said:

I should say though that I think the problem here is the leather itself and it has a loose top layer.

Yup. 

[nrk]

a two leather pieces of the same length that have been glued together will cause wrinkles when bend - either outside or inside

the other thing is whether you received a new one with the wrinkles already on it or you got them after wearing..