Copying and copyright(ing) 'n' stuff

[JLSleather]

Okay, that was good stuff.  Thread about copying others, closed just as I was delivering THE response.  Just to good to waste, so I'll put it here.  Doesnt matter if nobody reads it... Im usually just talking to myself anyway

________________________

Not enforcing a rule doesn't make you guilty of breaking it.

 People are shot every day.  Prostitutes run rampant  (and I hear many dressed like girls arent' even girls  ).  Illegals jump our U.S. borders at will with kidnap victims and drugs.  The fact that I didn't stop them doesn't mean I "condone" any of it.

There's a guy right now, claims to be from South Carolina.  Got a web site selling holsters, CLEARLY my designs.  When asked to make a holster he says he has available, he stalls a bit.  When asked about my designs, he claims he's never heard of us (but the design IS mine, so ...).  Point being, I don't "condone" that either.  He's broken no laws, and really doesn't affect me, so .... I aint sweatin' one dummy.

Even that one S O F T boy from TX usedta come round here quite a bit. Suckin' up FREE information, asking all the questions he figured he could slip in, then create a web site where he CHARGES OTHERS for that SAME information he was given for free.  Now THAT is a bit abrasive to me.  Come ask me for tips and tricks, then try to sell me a subscription to some videos where he shows those tips and tricks WE gave him!  Hey, if you don't mind the guy is basically calling you stupid, go sign up!  No matter to me.  The "kicker"?  He sold ("distributed" I believe is the legal term) patterns that contain the i.p. of OTHERS with only slight modification(s) and has the NERVE to add a paragraph about how its unlawful for YOU to copy or distribute "his" patterns!   You might recognize this STOHLMAN design?

[fredk]

25 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

There's a guy right now, claims to be from South Carolina.  Got a web site selling holsters, CLEARLY my designs.  When asked to make a holster he says he has available, he stalls a bit.  When asked about my designs, he claims he's never heard of us (but the design IS mine, so ...).  Point being, I don't "condone" that either.  He's broken no laws, and really doesn't affect me, so .... I aint sweatin' one dummy.

Actually, he has, you own the 'intellectual copyright' on your holster designs and he has stolen it from you. But how far can you go to protect your rights. I've been there, almost in court, when someone designed and used a magazine title very similar to the title of a magazine I owned and published. He used the same fonts, the same colours and the same layout design, all he changed was the style of the ' & ' in the title. I went to law, he lost.

Its very hard to keep control of a design of something that is a common item. Sometimes the copyright comes down to how the common item is made or presented.

31 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

Not enforcing a rule doesn't make you guilty of breaking it.

 People are shot every day.  Prostitutes run rampant  (and I hear many dressed like girls arent' even girls  ).  Illegals jump our U.S. borders at will with kidnap victims and drugs.  The fact that I didn't stop them doesn't mean I "condone" any of it.

There's a lot of bad in the world. We cannot deal with it all. That is why we employ LEOs and courts. However, if we are in a position to stop or prevent any crime we should try to do so if its within our capabilities - that may mean stopping a shop-lifter physically or just getting the security person onto it, reporting crime to the police. I've prevented minor crimes happening, but when it come to the big stuff I call in the local Plods

Only if a person stands by and does nothing when they are in a position to do something then I'd condemn the person 

In the UK we are very much enabled in protecting artists/artisans/performers/business' copyrights.

Its been a while but people used to ask me if I could make a certain 'named' bag or whatever, 'yes, but that is their design sign and I'll not copy it, but I'll make you something that looks similar but is unique'

A facetious saying used to be; copy one paragraph - thats plagiarism, copy a chapter - thats research, copy the whole book - thats inspiration

[mikesc]

Nobody said you have to "enforce" any laws, about anything illegal..That is the job of the courts ..

Copying any thing without "the express written permission of the copyright owner" is breaking the law, and is illegal.In the USA too.

However..if to all of that and the other thread, you say.."walk on by and ignore it"..then you are condoning it.

Because you are apparently going to walk on by and say , do nothing, to any IP abuse of your IP, does not mean anyone else should in relation to any abuse of their IP, or anyone else's...You were saying in that thread that we should ignore the thread..that is implicitly condoning the IP abuse..No-one said that you should "stop it".

I've been to court too , to protect my IP..five times..and I have won, 5 times, with damages awarded to me.Twice the IP infringers were in the USA. I still won..

There is a huge difference between , thinking you know the law(s) about IP, and actually ( via experience ) knowing the IP laws.

You see a rape or a murder happen right in front of you, not on TV..you walk on by ?..because it ain't you ?

WTF has the Southern border of the USA got to do with IP abuse and copyright...Nothing, that's what.

Edited August 30, 2019 by mikesc

[JLSleather]

16 minutes ago, mikesc said:

You were saying in that thread that we should ignore the thread..that is implicitly condoning the IP abuse..No-one said that you should "stop it".

No, my question was.. what did you hope to gain by continuing to state your position?  People will do what they will do.  EVEN IF I chose to enforce i.p. "rights", I can only enforce MY OWN.  

And as for enforcing my own, I PREFER not to.  I put a lot of attention to detail in my work. Most don't.  So, if someone uses my design, he either puts that same attention to detail in the work (which most wont) or he SHOWS MINE to be superior, which only does me a favor.  People see it's the same design, and set together mine clearly stands out.  Copying me badly is like free advertising for me.  

[chrisash]

In the UK the laws on copyright have been very poor in some sectors, so that a small design company will make a new dress design and sell it at a few thousand pounds to a few customers and the big clothing companies will bring out a near exact copy but with slightly different material and very minor changes and sell thousands at £20 each, But the general public will see the very strong resemblance and probably call it a copy

With many leather items it's hard to make a unique design for the most popular items, a clutch bag or bifold wallet have been made for decades all closely following some one off design many decades ago, leaving very little parts that can be trademarked which seems far stronger than copyright in law

Even if designers take action to defend their products they fight a uphill fight unless the person or company copying has the money or assets to make it worthwhile

Theft of designs is totally wrong in all circumstances, but unfortunately will never be stopped, just look to history with the similar cars coming out at the same time. But on the other hand there has never been so many designers willing to sell their designs for so little money

I for one have learnt a lot by studying other peoples designs but never had the inclination to make a copy

Al stohlman made his money selling books and classes, but at this present time his books are available free as e-books with presumably no royalties paid to the family although no doubt Tandy had agreement from the family 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by chrisash

[mikesc]

Jeff..you just said..

1 hour ago, mikesc said:

You were saying in that thread that we should ignore the thread..that is implicitly condoning the IP abuse..No-one said that you should "stop it".

Quote

No, my question was.. what did you hope to gain by continuing to state your position? 

the other thread was locked by J..But it isn't gone..so I can quote your post in it's entirety.My bold

 

Quote

Reminder from the bleachers ... any time a guy doesn't like the topic or general direction of a conversation, he of she always has the option of simply not participating. 

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Folks, what point to bashing this guy?  If you don't want to help him do whatever he's doing, then don't help.  Not required.  Whatever.   There are millions of people ignoring this right now, and they're mostly doing fine.

That is not saying..

Quote

what did you hope to gain by continuing to state your position? 

that is saying "walk on by" "ignore the thread"..that is saying do not speak out against IP abuse..

I personally hope to gain nothing..I gain nothing by posting..I only ever asked one question here..my first post..Eventually ( when he saw it ) Eric answered it.since then I have not asked another, I don't need to..I know how to do what I do..I know how to run ( and fix, thanks to Eric ) the machines that I have.

But..as someone who is also a designer and a creator..the fact that you are perfectly happy to have your stuff ripped off and to see the work of others being ripped off, does not make it OK for you to tell the rest of us to "ignore the thread"..Because of the huge outcry by those of us who do create and design, gradually the internet giants like Google, facebook and hopefully one day even pinterest, have been told ( only by the EU for now, but, eventually the USA will get around to it too ) that promoting copies and fakes is wrong, and that they as platforms will be held liable for doing so..It stopped Google from copying all the books in the world that they could get, even the ones which were still in copyright, where the authors were still alive, and then making them available for free on line, with adverts around them that companies would pay Google for..Google books still exists..with non copyright books only..and no ads.They knew it was wrong, unethical, and illegal IP abuse, but they only stopped because people ( big name authors, and the little people ) made a fuss..that got heard by their legislators.They Google et al, will no longer have the "get out" of saying that they are not publishers.

The copies of my stuff have been done badly , but unless the person buying them knows that they are copies of my work , and then takes the trouble to find the originals and buy them, then that is lost revenue..and is wrong..

 

Wrong is wrong..Illegal is illegal, I repeat ,with an addition,.

You see a rape or a murder happen right in front of you, not on TV..you walk on by, you say nothing to anyone, you don't even call the cops ?..because it ain't you ?

Why don't you stamp the Harley Davidson logo on your holsters? Because it would be wrong and illegal, ..or because they might send their lawyers after you, or both ? Or..because you are honest, and it would be wrong and illegal ?

Edited August 30, 2019 by mikesc

[JLSleather]

I perceive that you...

..........

like to talk. 

I will take my own advice now, and exercise my option of simply not participating. 

[mikesc]

I like the truth, honesty, and integrity..and respect for the IP of myself and others..and will always "talk" and act, to protect those things.

[Hardrada]

Thing with intellectual 'property' is that it's been taken to extremes. Now, as a professional photographer, I'm all for copyright, but frankly, how many ways are there to put things together and make a card wallet? At this rate, we won't be able to have round corners of radius X because someone else 'owns' that design.

[mikesc]

Quote

how many ways are there to put things together and make a card wallet?

Very very many..as is evidenced by all the very many different designs that there are..with imagination ( as a pro photographer you'll certainly have that ), it is possible to come up with very many more..What is wrong, and illegal, is copying an already existent one, asking for help in doing it, ( dismissing the work designing, cutting and making it as "simple", and yet still asking for help to do it ), the pattern of which wallet ( with instructions ) is for sale for $5.00..with unlimited use, providing one buys the pattern..Or, everyone could just design their own...Intellectual property has not been taken to extremes..only buy those who do not respect the intellectual property of others.

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At this rate, we won't be able to have round corners of radius X because someone else 'owns' that design.

See Apple..IP relating to iphones, specifically about radius x on rounded corners :)..Would you copy an iphone..nope, because you know that they'd come after you..and hopefully, also because you know that it would be wrong..and illegal..

[Hardrada]

19 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Very very many..as is evidenced by all the very many different designs that there are..with imagination ( as a pro photographer you'll certainly have that ), it is possible to come up with very many more..What is wrong, and illegal, is copying an already existent one, asking for help in doing it, ( dismissing the work designing, cutting and making it as "simple", and yet still asking for help to do it ), the pattern of which wallet ( with instructions ) is for sale for $5.00..with unlimited use, providing one buys the pattern..Or, everyone could just design their own...Intellectual property has not been taken to extremes..only buy those who do not respect the intellectual property of others.

Now, don't get me wrong, I did see those Samsonite et al. posts and I wasn't impressed. I don't like knock-offs, but if I'm gonna attempt one, I'd at least take the time to reverse engineer it and make mocks. The cavalier request to get ready-made patterns was indeed infuriating.

Basically, you have several categories of copies:

• The shameless clone: identical, ergo also known as counterfeit.
• The (shameless) knock-off: not quite the clone, but close.
• The pastiche: a.k.a. competitive alternative. Think Windows which 'lifted' lots of elements from MacOS and just switched them around.
• The 'inspired-by': because sometimes you just can't improve on a good design: do you see anyone making cars with 5 wheels to avoid being sued by Daimler?

Of these, I oppose the first two. Those are indeed stealing; furthermore, they are intended to deceive and to fully take away sales from a creator/manufacturer. The last listed, nay; they're fair game.

As for crApple, I can tell them where the can put their monopolistic BS. Would I copy an iPhone? No, because it's too common for any clone to garner attention. Illegal, wrong... they're not always the same thing.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Hardrada

[fredk]

48 minutes ago, Hardrada said:

 At this rate, we won't be able to have round corners of radius X because someone else 'owns' that design.

Never worry. There is some common sense within copyrights laws.

Not too long ago a fashion company Ben something tried to copyright and trade mark a Blue/White/Red roundel which they used on their items. The Royal Air Force told them where to stop as the B/W/R roundel is the British RAF symbol thus the RAF already owns it, but doesn't, as it is in common usage. Ben wotsit didn't get their way.

[Hardrada]

Well, I hope the common sense, which is becoming less and less common, remains in said laws; and that it won't happen as it did with the Big Ben red bus photo case.

I once watched one of Chartermade's youtube videos in which the creator provided a link for anyone to buy the pattern; and he especified that it was for personal use, and that if the viewer wanted to sell the wallets he should come up with his own design. Totally fair. I respect that. If I find his design so efficient, I can redesign the idea and create my own version. That too is fair use.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Hardrada
Typo

[mikesc]

Quote

Of these, I oppose the first two. Those are indeed stealing; furthermore, they are intended to deceive and to fully take away sales from a creator/manufacturer. The last listed, nay; they're fair game. 

Agreed

Quote

As for crApple, I can tell them where the can put their monopolistic BS. Would I copy an iPhone? No, because it's too common for any clone to garner attention. Illegal, wrong... they're not always the same thing. 

Ah but..the clones don't have exactly the same radius on their corners.not that Apple thought of radiused corners first..

btw..I have 3 non apple phones..( and no apple ones ) I don't like their "walled garden" ..and all my computers ( which are allowed to connect to the web ) are linux ( life is too short to let windows be exposed to the web )..I have 3 machines that run win7 ulti..which are not allowed to be connected to the web..they are to run lasers / printers/ scanners etc which have software which wine ( and playonlinux ) doesn't play well with..and for which there are no drivers for linux machines..I could probably write the drivers..if I had the time, or the inclination..I don't.

Agreed, again illegal and wrong are not always the same thing..but in a venn diagram their sets frequently overlap.

 

you posted while I was typing.. agreed again...and with fred ..

Edited August 30, 2019 by mikesc

[Grumpymann]

Ok, let me whip this out and put paid to my part in the mess.

I made the same mistake asking for a pattern from someone, anyone. And someone gave me advise on how to make my own. And I appreciated to no end. Now when I want to make something I start with a sketch and work my way to creating my own patterns one or two people have asked me for a copy. Kind of helped me to take this craft more serious and increased my passion, enjoyment and pride. 

 

Yes I  was helping the guy the same way I was given help. Dose that make me an ass for helping a guy learn to fish? 

I hope not.

 

True I may not have liked the edge I seemed to hear in the post but there have been a few times when I was given help when didn't deserve it but sorely needed it. 

 

On all forums there is a... culture, a way of speaking and interacting. For an outsider or newbie it can take a while to get to know (and I'm sure even after all this time I  know I run a foul of the way here.) walking through an interaction may be better than flaming.  You know flies, honey and all that.

 

So I'm sorry if I stepped out of line. But nice is kind of my default. 

[fredk]

17 minutes ago, Grumpymann said:

Yes I  was helping the guy the same way I was given help. Dose that make me an ass for helping a guy learn to fish? 

I hope not.

No one is blaming you or condemning you for your part.

It was the other chappie's attitude.

There is no harm in asking for a pattern for something and showing a ready-made commercial item as the example. Most of us look at the commercial item and want to make our version of it, not copy it exactly ~ but that is what that chappie wanted to do. There is a pattern, and an acrylic template, readily available for that style of wallet but he seemed not to want to pay $5 -$15 for either of them.

That chappie guy was toxic

[mikesc]

There is a huge difference between helping a guy learn to fish, and helping a guy who starts off by saying says he wants to know how to steal someone else's fishing rod, that they only want $5.00 for..He knew exactly what he was proposing to do, and was asking for help to do, was wrong, as did most of the rest of us.

Would have been totally different if he came in and said "hey, I found this wallet , I like, bought the pattern for $5.00, I need some help understanding how to make it..and eventually I'd like to ( when I am experienced at it, I'd like to sell them, do you think I could sell 10 a month at $71.00 each ) ..Instead what we got was .."I wanna make $710.00 per month" ( same figure as in his  "How do I copy this Samsonite wallet thread"..10 items at $71.00 each ..seems to have a thing about certain numbers does Michael222* ;).."designing and making these things is so simple anyone can do it".."How do I do it". Combined with a whole lot of "everyone copies and steals and so it is OK for me to do it, anyone who disagrees is really copying other peoples work themselves".

*despite the autotrans English , it was crystal clear he has no respect for anyone's IP or work..given the thing about certain numbers, and the syntax and grammar, I have a pretty good idea of the guys mother tongue.

Yep Fred..toxic describes him very well..haven't had one like that in here since that "enclave guy" in South America ( I forgot the exact country ) with his awful "rough leather" and pure racism in almost every post he made.

Edited August 30, 2019 by mikesc

[Mark842]

My 2 cents for what its worth. I never show or say what my product is in this forum because I had my product knocked off years ago and it pretty much bankrupted me. It took 7 years to get back to where I was with a new product line and it was with a lot of lessons learned. I now have a trademark, have several patents pending and will go after anyone trying to rip me off. The last time if happened the seller was using my professionally shot photos because one of the venues I sell on does not allow you to watermark your photos. I know someone will say they would never sell there...well to each there own. I make a lot of money with them.

 As for, I would never in a million years, even with permission to use someones design, use that design to profit. I have over the years asked friends if I could use their design to make one for my own personal use. I understand some peoples reasoning that someones knock off makes the original looks better. The problem is that the customer might not know it is a knockoff. Then someone see's said product in real life and says, "yeah, I saw that guys website selling that. Boy the picture sure looked better". For me, I will actively enforce.

[mikesc]

Same kind of reasons why I am vague about what I make, and will not show images. Last time ( that I know of )  that one of my designs got ripped off, was a few years ago..the person wearing the knock off was not aware that the original design was mine, but the video in which they wore it had quite literally billions of views, and the item ( and the copies it, and the copies of the copy etc ) sold all over the world..hardly any of those sales were mine, as I was not credited as the designer ..I had made the original design in the late 70s..The person who did the production run for me back then in the 70s, contacted me when the video came out far more recently, to congratulate me, saying "it was all over everywhere" and "I must be drowning in orders, did I need any manufacturing"..must have missed tens of thousands of sales, and by the time I saw the thing, it was being made all over the place..that one I could not follow up on ..legally I could have, realistically I would have to live for another 50 years to take them all into court, and some of them have a lot more money than I do..and live in places that are not very respectful of IP.

Similar thing happened a long time ago..again in the 70s..I was working with ( but not for , so no "work for hire" applied ) a big name designer, I designed a complete range of articles ( women's clothing ) while he was away on holiday for a month, he came back, saw them, said how great they were..I told my folks and friends,.. Couple of months later, my designs were all over the national press, with his name on them..I'd been dumb enough to leave my sketches with him..so I had no proof that the designs were mine..When I confronted him I was told " it happens all the time, take it as a compliment, make waves over it and you'll be finished in the fashion business"..So..I accepted a large ( for that time ) cheque..and made sure never to leave any sketches or designs anywhere out of my sight again..

Nowadays..I too enforce my trademarks and prefer to make small runs , or bespoke, that I control how many are made and what the quality is..If I sell a design to someone else, then it is " the charge is Y to be used for a run of X units in Z country"..and Veritas or similar control that for me. Works the same for artwork, and prints, and molds and castings from sculptures are not allowed at all..any "series" are short, and numbered, and signed..Next year we ( me and my son ) are bringing out Comic books, our artwork, we'll be printing them, domain names and registered company are already in place..sales will be direct via sites and conventions.

I learned the hard way, if you don't lock it down, it will get stolen right out from under you, or at least when you are not around to be watching it...and that some people will steal your ideas in a heartbeat, and pass them off as their own, so don't make it easy for them to do so..

Oh ..and if you register your designs in the USA ( it is cheap to do so ) and in the EU ( again it is cheap to do so ) the "statutory damages" that you can claim are higher than you may get if you don't register them. You don't have to register anything for copyright laws to apply, but if you do, you can get more money when / if someone tries to rip you off..and in the USA at least ..notifying them that the designs etc that they ripped off were registered, can make them offer a settlement without needing to go to court at all.Plus many lawyers will take a case where the copyrights were registered, without asking fees "up front", because they know it is likely to be a "slam dunk" win.

'Nother long post..HTH someone..

Edited August 31, 2019 by mikesc
typos

[Grumpymann]

Thanks folks....

[fredk]

Well, I'll tell ya folks; for about 16 years almost** everything I made was a copy of someone else's design and / or work.

Thats cos nearly everything I was making was for history re-enactment type people so everything was copied from existing Ancient Hibernian/Saxon/Viking/Medieval items. For some History re-enactors, they wanted near-enuf exact copies, others were content with a variation on the real example. I doubt the original makers are going to chase me - well, not this side of the Styx anyways

** during that period only about 5% of my output was my original design/work

[chrisash]

The big question is how far does copyright or trademark stretch to

If I design a leather pouch just like any other pouch design to hang from a belt, and have a flag design on the flap

Does this mean nobody can do the same or can they use a different flag or maybe a image or  photo 747

That's the main problem in identifying what is copyrighted or trademarked and what is freedom of design, things can be different but look much the same, 

Unfortunately the big guys can afford the lawyers the small guy has in most cases just to accept life in unfair

[MikeRock]

. In the United States, the registrant of a trademark registered in the Patent Office may not recover profits or damages under the provisions of the Lanham (Trademark) Act unless the defendant had notice of the registration. The registrant may give this notice by displaying with the mark the words "Registered in U. S. Patent and Trademark Office" or "Reg. U.S. Pat. & Tm. Off." or the letter R enclosed within a circle.

[mikesc]

True Mike..Normally when you apply to register a trademark in the USA, you should read the docs and thus a registrant should know this ( a lot of people don't read them though )..and some very well known trademark holders ( looking at you Apple ) don't "indicate"..no letter R enclosed within a circle on the back of an iphone*, or a lot of Apple gear, just a part eaten silhouette apple. Here registration for France ( and extension to the EU ) costs less than €500.00, even less if you do it yourself "online". I can't remember the USA costs and the UK one ( been a while since I did my last ones in either of those places).Trademark legislation can be complex, and varies enormously from country to country. Copyright is more homogeneous. But still differs somewhat from place to place in the details.

 

*I don't own one, so maybe they put a microscopic one on that my aged eyes do not see..speaking of which, looking down at this keyboard..the "win key" ( which even linux keyboards have )..has the MS "windows" flowing window flag logo..but no trademark marker.

Edited August 31, 2019 by mikesc

[Hardrada]

7 hours ago, chrisash said:

The big question is how far does copyright or trademark stretch to

If I design a leather pouch just like any other pouch design to hang from a belt, and have a flag design on the flap

Does this mean nobody can do the same or can they use a different flag or maybe a image or  photo 747

That's the main problem in identifying what is copyrighted or trademarked and what is freedom of design, things can be different but look much the same, 

Unfortunately the big guys can afford the lawyers the small guy has in most cases just to accept life in unfair

That's basically what I meant when I said 'how many ways can you put pieces together to make a wallet?' AFAIK, as long as it's not a clone or knock-off it should be alright. A big problem is the Internet: it makes it very easy to imitate, and very easy to feel somebody who's never seen your products has imitated them. Frankly, I'm inclined to limit myself to local markets.