Copying and copyright(ing) 'n' stuff

[JLSleather]

Got an email yesterday from a guy wanting a project with quite a bit of time involvement, but wanting to know how to "keep costs down".  Well, best way to have me charge you less is to ask me to do less (if I don't make something for you, its ABSOLUTELY FREE!)

But, I don't even make those these days, and apparently some didn't get the memo (it's in the blog).

So, what has that to do with "copying"?  In the blog, I put a link to a google search for that project, so since I wasn't making them, a guy could just click the link and it would show you a google search for others of a similar type (maybe).

Now, today I sent him that link.  And since it was right there and I was curious, I clicked it myself.  YIKES!  Folks are LINING UP over at custommade.com to snatch any idea I ever had  

Now, here's the blog post ... https://www.jlsleather.com/coast-guard-charge-books/

And here's the link taken from that blog post for simplicity.... "...you can find many just by Google-ing “leather coast guard charge book”. ...'

Click that and see about a JILLION people taking what I GUESS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE "copies" of what I did.  Now, all fairness, I'm certainly not screaming COPYRIGHT or INFRINGEMENT since I certainly didn't design that Coast Guard Emblem, OR the ratings, or the rank. Or brown leather, or zipper construction or binders in general.  

But REALLY... that layout with the insignia, backed by the Coast Guard rating badge, ribboned with a scroll stating name and rating, and bordered by a nautical rope knot..... that was me.  Now, ya maybe shouldn't have copied all that, even if I didn't register it (which wouldn't be enforceable anyway).  But REALLY REALLY.... if you "have to" copy the idea.. was it REALLY REALLY REALLY necessary to do it POORLY?@!  Some of this looks like it was done by a child ...

Good thing I have a sense of humor, eh?  By this afternoon, there will be 3 more people making exactly that (mostly badly), AND there will be 5 more signing up at custommade, where apparently you can sell things no matter how pathetic they are, AND there will be 7 copying the way I used that google search link in the blog post

 

[JLSleather]

All that said, my position on copying / appropriating others' content? 

IF you do something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.

Man, tha's good stuff.  I really should copyright that ...

By the way, same issue but different subject... in the last week or maybe 2, I saw TWO videos (well, parts of em... I couldnt' stomach the whole thing) by TWO DIFFERENT people, each telling me that you can determine where your stitch lines go for your holster pattern by wrapping a piece of leather around the gun.  Which is TRUE, you CAN.  BUT, Jim Simmons let us all in on that simple point YEARS AGO (in this thread, dated 2009), and I have no doubt that's exactly where these two MUNKYS got the idea.  Fair enough, it was clear Mr. Simmons INTENDED you to use that information he provided for free.  Woulda been nice, then, if these jackals would have said... "Jim showed me that"... but... nope.- not a word...

Incidentally, this is the same way I verify the correct size before I put HOURS in a custom belt for someone.  5.. 4.... 3... (tha's me, counting down to somebody copying that  ).

[chrisash]

Never heard of charge books this side of the pond, please can someone explain what they are used for

 

[PappyJoe]

Quote

Never heard of charge books this side of the pond, please can someone explain what they are used for

In the olden days of the U.S. Coast Guard and Navy - before political correctness took over - when an enlisted person was promoted to the rank of Chief Petty Officer (E-7 paygrade), they had the option to be initiated into the Chief Petty Officers association. Once they said, "I'm going to be initiated." they were issued a charge book - in my case it was a green record book - that I would have to take around and present to anyone who was a chief petty officer or above who would then fill the pages with any type of "well wishes" and insults they would like. During the initiation, the Judge would use the charge book as reason to punish the new chief by making him do silly stuff. It should be noted, other than getting you possibly drunk, they would not do anything to physically harm you.  In today's military, they give you a charge book, fill it was niceties and well wishes - and nothing not politically correct - and have a formal dining-in for new Chiefs. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by PappyJoe

[PappyJoe]

Quote

But REALLY... that layout with the insignia, backed by the Coast Guard rating badge, ribboned with a scroll stating name and rating, and bordered by a nautical rope knot..... that was me.  Now, ya maybe shouldn't have copied all that, even if I didn't register it (which wouldn't be enforceable anyway).  But REALLY REALLY.... if you "have to" copy the idea.. was it REALLY REALLY REALLY necessary to do it POORLY?@!  Some of this looks like it was done by a child ...

Don't know when you were in, but doing the rating badge behind the Chiefs insignia was being used as far back as 1972 when I was grease-behind-the ear young Fireman Apprentice on an icebreaker. What you described was also pretty standard for charge books -albeit not in leather - when I retired in 1993. 

[fredk]

12 minutes ago, PappyJoe said:

In the olden days of the U.S. Coast Guard and Navy - before political correctness took over - when an enlisted person was promoted to the rank of Chief Petty Officer (E-7 paygrade), they had the option to be initiated into the Chief Petty Officers association. Once they said, "I'm going to be initiated." they were issued a charge book - in my case it was a green record book - that I would have to take around and present to anyone who was a chief petty officer or above who would then fill the pages with any type of "well wishes" and insults they would like. . . .

and there I was think it was for recording personnel who were on 'a charge'. When I was in the RAF Officer Of The Day kept such a book, entering who was 'on a charge' and what for and determining who was 'carpeted' ie went before the Senior Officer, for punishment

another example of different meanings in the two countries

Edited September 2, 2019 by fredk

[PappyJoe]

Just now, fredk said:

and there I was think it was for recording personnel who were on 'a charge'. When I was in the RAF Officer Of The Day kept such a book, entering who was 'on a charge' and what for and determining who was 'carpeted' ie went before the Senior Officer, for punishment

another example of two different meanings in the two countries

Actually, not that different except you used the charge book for actual rules infractions serious enough to get called on the carpet. We also had that in the Coast Guard. For the initiations, it was mainly to create a keepsake of the event and it was all in good fun. I became a Chief Petty Officer in 1985 and I still have my charge book packed away with my last dress uniform in a chest. 

[mikesc]

I thought "charge book" was the same meaning as did Fred..
But..I got a chit ...mate*..."excused being up on a charge" it says..

Of course calling whoever outranked one, "mate"..would be enough to get one "up on a charge" all by itself. 'Less one was in a "wet branch".. and it was their rank.

Edited September 2, 2019 by mikesc

[particle]

I’m reluctant to revive this thread, but I haven’t been here in a while and I feel I need to set a few things straight. I'm sure my words will get twisted and there will continue to be accusations and insults thrown my way like "S O F T", "MUNKY", "jackal", etc., but certain people seem to enjoy that sort of stuff, so whatever.

When I first started making holsters over a decade ago, it was to replace my wife's income since we were expecting our third child. Tutorials related to concealed carry holsters were almost non-existent in 2009 (at least as far as I was aware). There was a great tutorial for a pancake style holster on a guy's website, but I've lost track of it over the years - I'd love to remember where it was so I could reach out to him and thank him for helping to get me started (I used to direct people to his site all the time because it was such a great resource). At the time, YouTube was still mostly silly cat videos. To help give back to the leatherworker.net community (and the world as a whole), and to help market my holster business and show my customers how much work was involved in making a holster, I posted my first 3-part YouTube video in February of 2010 showing how I made an Avenger style holster for my Kahr P9. To help make ends meet, I eventually started selling patterns. And yes, I did make tutorial videos that I had available via subscription on my website. I now just post new videos directly to YouTube, but the O.P. loves to make it sound like I'm forcing people to buy/rent/watch the stuff I make. I'm just trying to help others while also paying the bills!

Regarding the tooling pattern shown in the Stohlman book in multiple threads - yes, I did use that design for inspiration, and yes, I did include my hand-drawn & adapted version in some of my pancake patterns. No, I never directly photocopied and distorted it with my graphics software. It was not a direct copy. Being that I hand-drew the design to fit on my reinforcement piece, I felt it had been modified enough to use on my patterns. The individual elements in the design are not unique to Stohlman, but I should not have leaned so heavily on his composition. Once it was suggested here that there might be some legal issues with such a strong resemblance to the original composition, I immediately went through all of my patterns and removed the tooling pattern from my files.

Regarding my most recent YouTube video that my (not so) secret stalker referred to (showing how I made a flat-back holster for a Taurus Judge, I'd never seen the tutorial shared by Jim back in September of 2009. Or at least if I had seen it, I completely forgot about it. I've only made a hand-full of western style holsters in my decade of experience, so it wasn't something that would have interested me 10 years ago. The formula I’d used over the years usually worked very well for me (1/2 the slide thickness + one thickness of leather = stitch offset). Jason Ingle used a leather strip a while back in a class he did with Learn Leather. I've been using ‘his’ technique lately. I’m sure he's the not original creator of that technique (and I’m sure he would be the first to tell you he didn’t create the technique), but he's the only person I’ve seen use that technique. Prior to seeing Sam Andrews video on making a flat back holster, I'd never made one before and never really knew how to. His video was a great help, and I credited Sam in the video since he's the actual person I learned that particular method from.

Regarding having 'legal' text at the bottom of my pattern product listings, that was simply to discourage people from distributing my holster patterns. Yes, since I had an adaptation of Stohlman’s tooling pattern in some of my files, that was a little ironic, but it was an innocent oversight, and one that I didn’t consciously see a problem at the time (again, since it wasn’t a direct copy) and I immediately removed them from the files once I realized there was a potential problem with it. So thank you for bringing that to my attention, no matter what your motives were.

When I created my Avenger style pattern back in 2009 or 2010, I tried very hard to differentiate my design from the original Askins Avenger. His reinforcement band was a simple “L” shaped piece of leather that naturally worked great for making the belt slot tunnel. I made my reinforcement piece very large with an integral belt slot tunnel so I’d have room for tooling, but it made it terribly difficult to form the belt tunnel. To my knowledge, no one else was making their Avenger style reinforcements that way at the time, but now loads of people make it that way, even though it’s a less-than-ideal design. And my pancake reinforcements – I don’t remember seeing anyone making them extend down towards the muzzle the way I was doing it, but now it’s common place. Oddly enough, those that would call me out don’t see a problem with using things that were unique to my own designs at the time, though I’m sure I’ll now be accused of stealing those designs back in 2010.

At the end of the day, I'm just trying to be the best dad and husband that I can be. I love sharing whatever tips and tricks that I can with anyone that asks. Making tutorial videos satisfies my need to create things with my hands and help & teach others, while also getting to do fun things with video editing software.

I’m baffled that certain individuals have latched onto me and continue to throw insults and accusations my way. If I’ve rubbed people the wrong way, I’m truly sorry. If others wonder why I don’t post here anymore – well, it’s because of threads like this.

[Rhale]

Particle,  I’ll bet you are the only one to ever use a Stohlman pattern or design! LOL. I figure if someone doesn’t want there design copied, or their pattern used or similar they better copyright it.  They put the info out there for the world to see, tell them exactly how they made it in detail including a video then bitch like hell if someone copies it.  What do they expect to happen. Some people just like to complain.

[sideforce]

In this world of wide-open media and communication, if one desires to keep a technique or design secret, then they should not put it out there with an expectation it won't be used.  YouTube is an excellent resource for information, techniques, and skills.  I've learned and benefited from the efforts others have made to put it out there.  Particle, I thank you for your efforts to share the craft, for without sharing it will die out.  As Rhale stated, "Some people just like to complain."  Let them, most of it is ego-driven, desiring acclaim for creating something, that for the most part has already been done before.  Are there truly any original ideas remaining?

[JLSleather]

14 hours ago, Rhale said:

They put the info out there for the world to see, ...What do they expect to happen.

Tha's what I said. IF what you do is something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.

12 hours ago, sideforce said:

if one desires to keep a technique or design secret, then they should not put it out there with an expectation it won't be used

Uh.. tha's what I said. IF what you do is something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.

 

14 hours ago, Rhale said:

I figure if someone doesn’t want there design copied, or their pattern used or similar they better copyright it.  

What about when they DID copyright it, and then it's reused and redistributed anyway?  It's legally the responsibility of the copyright holder to enforce it. What do you suggest the rest of us should do when we see that?  [That's rhetorical - thought provoking, but not requiring an actual response]

Copyright 'protection' applies to the [re]distribution of the printed work.  MOST of us have used Stohlman patterns.  I STILL get asked to make some from 1950-something, which is before I was born.  What i don't do, is RESELL THE PATTERN, which IS copyrighted (its printed right on the book, and has been renewed since then).

Hey, copy my stuff... I won't care.  Just don't copy my stuff, then offer to sell me a "how to" or a video explaining my stuff to me

_____________________________

Footnote: EricA seems to think I was referring to him.  Funny that.  I'm guessing we're not going to see much the same way, so discussion probably not profitable 'adventure'.

 

[Rhale]

Particle,  I’ll bet you are the only one to ever use a Stohlman pattern or design! LOL. I figure if someone doesn’t want there design copied, or their pattern used or similar they better copyright it.  They put the info out there for the world to see, tell them exactly how they made it in detail including a video then bitch like hell if someone copies it.  What do they expect to happen. Some people just like to complain.

[Rhale]

If you are the copyright holder, get an attorney take it to court. Enforce it, if you are not going to do that then forget about it. Complaining about it to the world won’t help the problem, won’t solve anything, won’t do anything but make you more bitter, and probably hurt your business because people could usually care less to hear about your problems, they usually  have more serious things in their own lives to worry about than somebody else’s petty complaints

[Lobo]

Generally speaking, in the United States the owner of intellectual property (copyright, patent, whatever) must act to enforce that property right. There is little that any government agency can or will do to enforce such legal rights. That means that the owner of said property right must bring a civil action in court to force those improperly using his intellectual property to cease and desist, and perhaps to seek monetary damages for unauthorized use. Such processes are far too complicated for most individuals to take on without the assistance of experienced attorneys, and those folks do not work for free. Such legal actions might take years to resolve, and there is never any guarantee that one might recover any costs or damages in the end.

A shady operator may get away with any number of scams without ever being held to account, and if he has little or no assets to begin with there is little chance that he will ever be forced to pay for his offenses.

So, while it might be "against the law" unless you are willing to enforce your legal rights, and capable of paying the costs of doing so, you are left whistling in the wind.

[JLSleather]

On 10/2/2019 at 10:35 AM, Rhale said:

Particle,  I’ll bet you are the only one to ever use a Stohlman pattern or design! LOL

The question there is not USING a stohlman pattern (Al and Tandy intended you use them) the issue would be SELLING the pattern.  Printed on every copy of that How To Make Holsters book -- copyright info.  

I've had THOUSANDS of people use my holster designs.  No worries - that's what I INTENDED them to be used for.  I'll go even further -- if you can find somebody SLOW enough to PAY YOU for what I gave away for free.. go ahead and sell it!  Just don't be upset when I'm talking to the guy and tell him he could have had that FREE.

 

7 hours ago, Lobo said:

...the owner of said property right must bring a civil action in court ...far too complicated for most individuals to take on without the assistance of experienced attorneys, and ...there is never any guarantee ... in the end.

... if he has little or no assets to begin with there is little chance that he will ever be forced to pay for his offenses... unless you are willing to enforce your legal rights, and capable of paying the costs of doing so, you are left whistling in the wind.

Yup, that's basically it right there.  Base reasons NOT to "enforce" your IP "right"?  

1) it's going to be expensive, time and money

2) if may not do any good. 

• I have a judgment for a civil matter.  After 20 years, I have never seen a dime.  That guy spent YEARS only working where he could work for cash so his wages weren't 'garnished', but didn't do ME any good at all. 
• And in another case, lawyers told me I COULD sue, but should think about it, since it would cost at least $5k to file and follow, and in the end I would probably get a percentage of the NOTHING those people own. So basically throwing away another 5 grand on top of what i had already lost.

So, if you go by the idea that you are "small" and "probably" won't be sued, that may actually end up being TRUE.  But, have some self-respect (if you are able) -- do you REALLY want to be the "hundred-aire" who only makes the hundreds by piggy-backing on somebody else's income source?@!  There are words for "that guy".  They are not nice words.

Oh -- you are free to distribute any information I provided as you see fit?  You can - if you like - set up a site and a bank account and sell patterns and comments I've offered - wherever I offered them.  Just remember I'm pretty "vocal", and if somebody asks me about it, I WILL tell 'em how and where you got "your" info.

So, HOW to NOT violate copyright rules (and maybe use a Stohlman pattern too)?  

I made and sell this.  I sketched all those rectangles myself and priced them accordingly    https://www.etsy.com/listing/385969090/leather-notebook-pattern-field-notes

And I also made (and still make) these.  https://www.etsy.com/listing/220872475/tooled-leather-revolver-gun-holster?ref=shop_home_active_5&frs=1  But I do not sell the pattern, I do not pretend, insinuate, or suggest or imply that the pattern is my creation.

 

 

[JLSleather]

On 10/1/2019 at 4:30 PM, particle said:

Regarding having 'legal' text at the bottom of my pattern product listings, that was simply to discourage people from distributing my holster patterns. Yes, since I had an adaptation of Stohlman’s tooling pattern in some of my files, that was a little ironic,

Not twisting your words. Those are your words.

[chrisash]

Not really clear on your point

Naturally you can make a patter and sell it to whoever you like, but the example you gave below, has no copyright as they have been around for years, and just copies of other peoples idea's, with maybe some tiny modification  themselves, with the only difference being the exact measurements, to copyright your idea has to be original, just like a pancake holster could only have been copyrighted by the original person who designed it and i guess he never followed up and let everyone use the basic design

I made and sell this.  I sketched all those rectangles myself and priced them accordingly    https://www.etsy.com/listing/385969090/leather-notebook-pattern-field-notes

[JLSleather]

It's a RECTANGLE.  You are correct - no copyright. That IS my point.

But the holster pattern IS COPYRIGHTED (says so on every copy of that  book).  Not sure what you're not keeping up with here.  You don't get to "slightly modify" it and make it "yours".  

I'm going to guess that since Tandy just made that book freely available to everybody about a month ago, they basically can't be bothered to pursue those who infringed it previously.  At least, not the ones so small that suing them would cost more than it would profit.

So.. to clarify.... lemme separate it for those who may need that:

• the one WITHOUT copyright protection (mine) i distribute. 
• the ones WITH copyright protection, I DO NOT distribute (you can buy that holster done that way,  but you cant by the pattern from me).

Edited October 19, 2019 by JLSleather

[chrisash]

So what part is copyright in a holster of which the basic design if from the 1800's or maybe even before as there is nothing distinctive about it that I can see, could be a novel fixing or something on the back though i guess but unlikely

Your actual images are definitely your copyright and cannot be copied, but you do not state what is and what is not copyright thereby leaving confusion

The actual design of the tooling may we be the items that a copyright as a design part, just the same as a painting or drawing can be

[Hildebrand]

What was copyrighted for the purposes of this discussion was the Al Stohlman floral carving pattern included with the sale of a holster makers pattern. 

[JLSleather]

41 minutes ago, Hildebrand said:

What was copyrighted for the purposes of this discussion was the Al Stohlman floral carving pattern included with the sale of a holster makers pattern. 

And my comment was not so much the copying, as the ridiculousness of copying somebody else and then insisting that others not copy "your" work 

He or she seems intent on arguing... same thing happened in the other thread (the one that started this). My speech is [mostly] english and generally purdy clear (TOO clear for some).  Maybe "over there" the game is just to see how many times they can convince you to reply? 

 

[JLSleather]

On 9/2/2019 at 10:22 AM, JLSleather said:

Now, here's the blog post ... https://www.jlsleather.com/coast-guard-charge-books/

And here's the link taken from that blog post for simplicity.... "...you can find many just by Google-ing “leather coast guard charge book”. ...'

Click that and see about a JILLION people taking what I GUESS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE "copies" of what I did. 

Okay, okay... after about a JILLION emails asking about these 'charge books', I'm going to list them as available for purchase/ordering again.  Many DON'T order them due to cost.  There are many people making and selling "charge books" for under $200 - I am not among them.

Part of why we cut those out was due to multiple people finding google searches of "charge book' in leather for under $200 ... and then wanting OURS for that amount.  I'll say it (not the first time I was not "politically correct") -- those under $200 charge books largely look like they were made by a child (I say largely because, to be fair, I have not seen ALL of them).  I'm apparently not the only one who noticed that, or the people contacting us would have just bought the one they previously found at a price they are willing to pay.

I don't anticipate a big upswing in the number of orders for these.  Actually, I suspect that I'll simply be replying to far less emails once the cost and time frame is clearly displayed.  Just a matter of getting to a clean, clear listing on the web page (which, I apparently will also do myself).

Still, we will not be offering - in any way or any place - to sell this pattern.  Not to worry - you can download it free of charge at https://www.leathercraftlibrary.com/product/1119/how-to-make-holsters-by-al-stohlman

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by JLSleather

[chuck123wapati]

I've read through some of this certainly not all of the comments but will add my two cents. My understanding about copyright laws is and I will use tee shirts for my example. Anyone can make a tee shirt because there is basically only one way to make a tee shirt so you cant copyright it because it has two holes for the arms one for the neck etc, nor can you copy right it because you made the arms an inch longer. You can copyright the cool design you put on, you can copyright the new material you created that you build it from or you can register you trademark that goes on it and then that is protected from being used by others but they can still make tee shirts, anyone can make a tee shirt and sell it as a tee shirt.  Same with holsters  a single action army has a certain shape and you cant make a single action army  holster without using that shape.  Stohlman used a shape in his pattern but anyone in about two minutes can find earlier examples that are exactly the same or darn close so his Holster design isn't really his to begin with and no one could prove you actually used his pattern, it a basic pattern for a single action army and it has to be shaped that way to fit the weapon, like a tee shirt. What you cant copy and sell as your own is Stohlmans art nor his books, same as the Harley Davidson logo, for example,  or anything above and beyond that changes his holster from the normal basic revolver holster like a special snap or  special tanning process for the leather etc. 

[chrisash]

JLS

I would like to make a suggestion, maybe without having my head bitten off

For marketing it is often seen as unwise to knock your competition, but far better to actually market YOUR product is a way that shows it's worth the money, normally online, by detailed photo's and great descriptions, they are the only things you can do to show your quality and the thought you have given to the product, to make people want it, and in this case for both looks and also use. For something like this no doubt it will be moved around so is there a protective cover just like ladies expensive handbags is so mention these points

Many will not understand wood or leather they just want a great product, so explaining the qualities of the materials used is also required for instance on your website you mention Leather on most pages but never give any information , it could be crap leather or from the best well known tanners available we all assume its veg tan but no mention on the page of any details

Just trying to help, and not telling you how to do your job but offering proven advice