Thread tangling around the needle...

[Dantan]

Hi,  

I have an Adler 104-64,  that is suddenly giving me problems.

 

I am stitching two to three layers of heavy-ish belt leather,  and have not had trouble before,  but today,  I can not for the life of me get it to stich more then 5 stitches before it starts skipping stitches, and then stops stitching completly... and when I look at the needle,  some how the top thread is wrapped around the needle.

 

I cut the thread...   put it into the needle correctly, and same thing happens again.

 

Any suggestion?

 

Thank yuo i advance,   for any help!!

D

[nylonRigging]

thread Wrapping around needle sounds weird . But start tracing down the problem . work back from the needle , needle bent/needle turned . the correct size needle and Skarf on correct direction to Hook or off-angle.
Had a needle strike lately ? . look/feel for a burr on needle/throat plate, burr on Hook .
.

Edited September 6, 2019 by nylonRigging

[JLSleather]

Got thread with the right "twist"?

[Dantan]

So ,  in my own trouble shooting,  I changed the needle already....   I will have to check the hook for burrs...

 

the comment about the thread is interesting,  because the cone is about 3/4 empty,  and I have noticed that it has a lot more twist to it then it did when the cone was full/larger...   could this cause it?

 

This is the first cone of thread I have ever used on this machine...   On the cone it says

 

Bonded Nylon 66

Tex 135     1250 yards

Col:Black

 

Does that sound right?

 

D

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

You should be using a #22 or 23 needle with T135 thread. Are you? Also, make sure the top thread is feeding through the check spring, before the take-up lever.

[nylonRigging]

Your nylon is always going to be a little stiff and curly with memory of the wrap/tension, especially on the last 25% left on the Roll .

In your 1st post your saying that it sewed perfect until now ?? . ( if so ? )  then something has suddenly changed different . You saying ? .." you only used this one thread #size this whole time  . You Did not accidentally put wrong needle in by mistake ? You did not have Scarf pointing wrong direction to Hook ? . Your Needle is pushed-up all the way in needle bar ?

---> So, you saying suddenly now, It's dropping Stitch and shredding/tangled on ( top-Thread and needle ) and fast in first 5-6  stitched laid down . You need to ' start ' by close scrutiny of all related to Needle - Hook .

.

Edited September 7, 2019 by nylonRigging

[kgg]

1 hour ago, Dantan said:

On the cone it says

 

Bonded Nylon 66

Tex 135     1250 yards

Col:Black

 

Does that sound right?

That sounds about right. The size of cone you are using is approximately 4 oz. There has be discussion on the problems associated with the 8 oz cones particularly black in colour from China in the past. I can see that the problems would be that much greater particularly when you get down towards the last 10 to 20 % with such a small cone. I would suggest replacing the thread cone with a new one of a larger size (1 lb would be best), check the needle and size of needle making sure it is fully seated and installed correctly.

kgg 

[shoepatcher]

Black thread is the worst for getting twisting. It is the most stiff thread because of the dyes they use to dye the thread.   I always told my production people to change to a new spool of thread halfway into a spool, especially on black.  As you use up more and more thread on a spool, it gets stiffer the closer to the end of the spool.  They used 1/2 spool left  strictly for bobbin winding.    Never had any problems following this approach.  We used #138 bonded thread in our production.  A&E's top nylon thread  made for automotive industry.  We were building hockey gear.   You may be having the same problem.  #23 titanium coated needles works great in this application.

glenn

[Gymnast]

21 hours ago, Dantan said:

and when I look at the needle,  some how the top thread is wrapped around the needle.

This is an indication to me, that the check spring may not operate, as is should.

[Constabulary]

11 hours ago, Gymnast said:

This is an indication to me, that the check spring may not operate, as is should.

I agree!

This could be the problem if the thread isn´t the problem. The check spring should hold the thread under "tension" until the needle touches the material (+/- a little bit) so it may depend on the material thickens you are sewing how to set the check spring.

 

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

104-64 is a really nice machine, we sold a few many years ago.  

[Bert51]

I have a 105-6 and the main problem I have with thread is as Constabulary said, " The check spring should hold the thread under "tension" until the needle touches the material " or I do not have the thread wrapped around the bottom tensioner 1 and 1/2 times.

Could you please post a picture of your face plate showing the needle about to go into your material.

Thanks,

Bert.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Bert51
spelling

[Dantan]

Hi,

I am sorry,  I forgot to post as to how it was all resolved...

I decided to try a new cone of thread....    and it worked!!!!

All I can think of is that the thread is so stiff, that it gets to the end of the cone,  the curve is so tight, it is twisting the thread....    not sure..  but,  a new cone seemed to fix it!!

 

Dantan

 

[Bert51]

Dantan, one thing I found was with heavy thread the near the end of the cone has memory of it being wrapped around the plastic cone and I was reading a post by gottaknow about having the thread cone as low as you can get it on the thread stand, I had my my cone to high, I lowered them and set it up like he said and no more problems.

This is what gottoknow said,

"Two things come to mind.

First, if the speed of your motor for your winder is too fast, you don't have a chance, especially with bonded thread.

Second, most thread manufacturers recommend having the first guide loop 2 1/2 times the height of the cone height.

For example, if the height of the cone is 8", the first loop the thread passes through should be 20" from the base where the cone sits.

Thread needs a chance to unwind and relax before it goes through the tension disc. The wire loop also needs to be directly above the centre of the cone.

Oh, and lastly, high quality thread tends to behave itself better all the way around. (not judging your thread, just commentary)."

Bert.

[Gymnast]

I am glad to know, that you got the problem solved by changing the thread cone.

I am not using the right machine for the job, and it made me investigate some details regarding thread twisting and thread tension. It was discussed about a half year in this forum, and it may help you to use all your thread and avoid similar problems:

 

[Frodo]

Hello Dantan,   I am not an expert by a long shot,  BUT,  I have experienced the same thing. and it caused a day of head scratching and cursing.

what i found is that my  needle thread tension is set just right on the thinner leather but when i went  to a thicker leather the tension needed to be loosened just a tweak.

i keep a strip of leather next to my machine that i use to check the tension of the needle thread,   i never adjust the bobbin tension 

also.  

I use brass eye screws to route my thread from the roll to the machine.  it reminds me of inspector gadget's set up but it stops the twisting 

 

[Bert51]

Some years back, all I had was my wife's Viking sewing machine and I had all sorts of problems using large spools with it and I made my own thread spool, although it was heaps better I still had a few problems with it, mainly towards the end of the spool.

All I did after reading gotoknows post was to make a wire rig that gave me about a foot of straight thread above the spool holder and before coming to the machine first thread guide.

I think if you give the thread a place where it can be kept straight for a short time some of the tension is released from the thread and there fore goes through the machine easier.

All of my machine thread stands have about a foot straight before going to the machine and I have one less problem with my thread.

If it was as easy to fix the link error on the machine, that would be great.

Added a picture of one of my early thread stands, thank heavens for fencing wire.

Bert.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Bert51
add picture

[dikman]

Spoken like a true Aussie - not much you can't fix with a pair of pliers and fencing wire!

[Bert51]

When I sold the farm and moved into town, I brought with me a near new roll of 8 gauge fencing wire and now I think I've lost it, went looking for it the other day and all I could find was a few coils of it.

Buggered if I know where it's gone.

Bert.

[dikman]

You've probably used it all fixing things.

[nylonRigging]

On 11/27/2019 at 5:02 PM, Dantan said:

Hi,

I am sorry,  I forgot to post as to how it was all resolved...

I decided to try a new cone of thread....    and it worked!!!!

All I can think of is that the thread is so stiff, that it gets to the end of the cone,  the curve is so tight, it is twisting the thread....    not sure..  but,  a new cone seemed to fix it!!

 

Dantan

 

 

For helping get the thread relaxed when using thread with higher memory and curl coming off the Cones . I think most people are thinking way to small for the length of travel of there thread, from the Cone to the eye of the needle .
On my machine thread tree's . For the length of thread travel, From the Cones to the Needle . I average more than 6 Ft.+ of travel length in it's routing . I am a true believer in this, and I don't get these problems since I just expanded on the Thread Stands and gave ample free-range for the Threads to relax some along it's travels to the eye .
.

Edited November 30, 2019 by nylonRigging

[Bert51]

I have made all my thread stands longer, but I thought mine where long, wow, nylonRigging 6 foot, my might look at changing the stand on my 132K6, I have a roll of Black giving me a little grief, every now and then.

Bert.

[Frodo]

On 11/28/2019 at 5:57 PM, Bert51 said:

Some years back, all I had was my wife's Viking sewing machine and I had all sorts of problems using large spools with it and I made my own thread spool, although it was heaps better I still had a few problems with it, mainly towards the end of the spool.

All I did after reading gotoknows post was to make a wire rig that gave me about a foot of straight thread above the spool holder and before coming to the machine first thread guide.

I think if you give the thread a place where it can be kept straight for a short time some of the tension is released from the thread and there fore goes through the machine easier.

All of my machine thread stands have about a foot straight before going to the machine and I have one less problem with my thread.

If it was as easy to fix the link error on the machine, that would be great.

Added a picture of one of my early thread stands, thank heavens for fencing wire.

Bert.

my high dollar solution

 

 

[nylonRigging]

14 hours ago, Bert51 said:

I have made all my thread stands longer, but I thought mine where long, wow, nylonRigging 6 foot, my might look at changing the stand on my 132K6, I have a roll of Black giving me a little grief, every now and then.

Bert.

-

Getting 6-ft.+ of thread routing from the Cone to the Needle is easy . 'Increase Distance' of the thread routing travel, will let thread relax more, on it way threw it's path, before it gets to the Needle .
( the Std. ) industrial thread tree sold that screws to your machine top, is all the same design . There just a 2-piece of 'short' , O.D. 5/8th" Pipe, with a clamp-coupling in middle .
Simple fix . just remove the top section of Pipe on the Thread Stand . Then replace it with a piece of 5/8th" pipe that is ' LONG ' .  ( rise the Cones up ) and the ( top thread arm to the top ) , Above/away from clutter of machine area, with also gaining the distance for thread distance it routed .

I run 8 machines, and I started a couple years ago getting the thread Cones above and away from all the work done at the machines . It not hard after you do a couple the rest of the tread tree stands goes pretty quick for extending UPward . The Pipe used is common and inexpensive and  found any hardware . It is just Copper water pipe usually sold in 10-Ft. sticks at any Hardware store .
-

-

( in pic. below ) . There is also arm extensions that mount to the Thread Stands .  That you can get to Guide\Route your Thread to the 1st Thread-post of you machine . I have a couple of them but wish I had more of them .
they look like this , and are clean effective routing arm to hang-off the Thread tree's . ( if ever find let me know ) as I could use more of them .

You will find every machine is going to be a little different on it's needs for thread routing, like double-needle, or single-needle, or your heavy thread-cord machines . You get more distance and with that fact,  basically you want to keep it all orderly and going threw it's eyelets to the Sew machines 1st thread-post , and also route down to the machines Bobbin winder .
-

Edited November 30, 2019 by nylonRigging

[Bert51]

Thanks for showing us that nylonRigging, you gave me an idea saved your photos to print out later.

I changed out some curtains for the wife some time back and put the old rods in the shed and a quick look and think they are the same size as the thread stand rod.

Looks I will be playing with a thread stand before the day is out.

Bert.