circular holes or holes cut out - is there a difference?

[NeilMott]

Hi all.

In my quest to find a way to stitch in straight lines on my watch straps, I've been using a stitching chisel like the one below.  It cuts out a 1mm hole, but gets larger due to the taper for thicker leather.  

What I'm finding is that even when I saddle stitch, I feel like the thread isn't as tight in the holes as I'd like it to be - even when I use 1.0mm Tiger thread.  I previously had a set of these stitching chisels. 

I found that these made the holes a bit too small, so I sold them.  I also wanted a larger spacing between holes, but overall the holes were too small...  I didn't think of switching thread and needles..  So I'm back to thinking about getting another set of these.  So, my question is, if the diameter of the teeth on these is the same as the 1mm chisels that physically cut out the leather (first pic), will I be able get tighter stitching because the leather isn't cut out?  Hopefully that all made sense.  As an aside, I tried just just using my round awl, but due to the taper the holes were just as large as using the chisels in the first pic.

Thanks,
Neil

[fredk]

After sewing the usual practice is to use a small mallet to tap down the stitching. If you use the second type there is leather to close up the hole as you tap it down. With the first type there is no leather left to close up the hole.

Have you tried stitching punches with flat angled teeth, as on these pliers type?

[NeilMott]

Hey Fred.

I haven't tried those pliers but they look interesting!  I'll check them out.  I do need to invest a small mallet - flat mallet right?  So many tools to buy...  I like the idea of the 2nd type now, as it makes senses that the leather can help fill in any gaps when tamping the stitching down...  

I'll see what I can find out about those pliers.

Best,

Neil

[chrisash]

Depending on the strength required and or the cosmetic look, you can buy say tiger thread in 0.6, 0.8 as well as 1mm, so mayb e the 2nd punch with thinner thread would give a nicer finish

[fredk]

6 hours ago, NeilMott said:

. . .  I do need to invest a small mallet - flat mallet right?  So many tools to buy...

Small rubber head mallet, might be available in a $ store or similar. Mine was bought in a £ shop

6 hours ago, NeilMott said:

I haven't tried those pliers but they look interesting!  I'll check them out. . . 

I'll see what I can find out about those pliers.

Once upon a time, in a galaxy far away Tandy used to sell them. You might find them as NOS in a Tandy re-seller or  - I got mine off ebay direct from China. Available in 4 tooth and 2 tooth

example of 4 tooth on ebay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1X-Leather-Stitching-Hole-Punch-Plier-Clamp-Cutter-Hoggard-Diamond-Cut-Punc-2R4/303149521011?epid=18030599939&hash=item46951e9873:g:82UAAOSwBCdc1KRI

 

[wizard of tragacanth]

Neil, round holes are not going to work for you. Can you purchase flat, angled teeth for that black tool shown in your post?

nick

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by wizard of tragacanth

[DJole]

Ditto what Wizard of Tragacanth said: round holes are not going to give you the small, tight stitches you want for watch straps. Diamond-shaped holes won't give you what you want, either. 
You need the flat, angled teeth of traditional stitching irons/chisels. 

 

[ljb]

These hole punch pliers actually work as advertised:

https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Revolving-Leather-Stitching-Pliers/dp/B07HN6M77B/ref=sr_1_14?keywords=Leather+Hole+Punch+Stitching+Hand+Pliers&qid=1575923651&sr=8-14

 

https://www.amazon.com/Leather-Pliers-Rustproof-Durable-Stitching/dp/B07Z419S7D/ref=sr_1_33?keywords=Leather+Hole+Punch+Stitching+Hand+Pliers&qid=1575923651&sr=8-33

https://www.amazon.com/Leather-Stitching-Strength-Rustproof-Durable/dp/B07WDX6DXJ/ref=sr_1_15?keywords=Leather+Hole+Punch+Stitching+Hand+Pliers&qid=1575923651&sr=8-15

They come with two chisels, for 2 and 4 hole punching.

[NeilMott]

Hey all.

Can you clarify why I can't do straight stitches while saddle stitching with tight holes using the tools I posted?  Are you saying the holes are too big?   Here is a baseball strap I just finished using the first tool in the post that cuts out a 1mm hole.

I found this plier with straight teeth,

but a review said this about how big the holes are:  I bought item so that I could continue to do leather work while other members of my household were asleep. The punch works well if you want to use a 3/32 size lace or to saddle stitch your project. the only limitations on this tool are the limits of common sense: don't try to put it through a double layer of anything too heavy, don't expect it to stay sharp if you don't maintain the cutting edge(s). 

So I would be wary of putting it through 5mm of leather and the holes it makes are 3/32" or 2.4mm wide, if I'm reading that correctly...  I do have some tandy punches that are angled diamond shape but I prefer a straight stitch look.

I think I'm missing something really basic here....it is because the thread doesn't have anything of shape to "seat" into?  

Best,

Neil

[fredk]

Those pliers are the same ones I posted above. There are just two types of these available now; one with small diamond teeth for stitching and a larger set with wider teeth for lacing. There is no choice on the stitching type per teeth size and spacing, there is on the lacing type, one for 3mm and one for 4mm wide lace

I've used mine for many years now. The latest jobs is through 3.6mm +2mm with the 3.6 skived  and the combo is about 3.2mm, about 8 oz (1 oz = 0.4mm). The pliers had no problem going thru that. I saddle stitch with 1mm flat profile thread which fills the holes. Just now using my digital calipers the tooth size is 1.17mm along one long side of the diamond, or about 1.2mm overall. All chisels need sharpening at some point in their use. I've not sharpened mine for a while now and I've just done 6 runs each of 84cm (33 inches) = about 504cm, over 5 m and nary a problem

Whatever you choose you need to match the thread to the hole. Ideally a thread 2/3 to 3/4 the size of the hole if saddle stitching, or about 3/4 if single stitching

[NeilMott]

Hey Fred et al.

I think the consensus is that I should be using diamond shaped chisels to stitch watch straps, but I just prefer straight stitches.  I have to admit that when I first started using the diamond shaped punches I have, I was just starting out and I found that I wasn't as consistent with making sure the needle went through the leather the same way, so that is probably part of this.  I think my stitching and marking is a lot better now, but still prefer straight stitches. 

The thread to hole size is something I didn't know in such a quantitative way, so I very much appreciate that.  I am using Tiger thread, which I think is flat thread, waxed...and have 0.6, 0.8 and 1.0mm size in most of my colors.

I was trying to think back on my experience with the first set of round dent punches and I remember that it was hard to get them out of the leather.  I even tried putting the teeth in the watch beforehand.  I think the KS punches should be better made and slide in and out more easily.  As far as sharpening them, how would you do that on a round chisel?  Is it just using a fine grit sandpaper on them and going around them?  

Neil

[wizard of tragacanth]

I don't think that is the consensus at all. I think that the consensus is that you should use a tool which makes slits rather than circular holes, but maybe I am reading it wrong.

The slits could be at an angle, or straight in line, whichever you prefer.

nick

Edited December 11, 2019 by wizard of tragacanth

[fredk]

I don't know what you are thinking of when you think of 'diamond' shaped holes.

The diamond shape has been long proven to be about the best hole for straight stitching. The shape allows the thread to be sewn close but the holes are unlikely to tear out

Here is a run of holes made with my pliers

As you can see they are in a straight line, thus the sewing will be as well.

[wizard of tragacanth]

You are right Fred. I don't know what I was thinking. Thanks for the correction.

nick

[NeilMott]

Hey all.

I think I was getting some type of zig zag when I was stitching using that type of punch...probably bad technique when I started...  I guess the holes - when they are just circular - are more likely to tear out than if in diamond shape?  

I went ahead and ordered the KS Blade punch set...  I guess we'll see.  I'll experiment with a scrap piece and see if I can achieve straight stitches using both tools...  Will report back.  Hopefully will have the new chisels by the weekend.

Best,

Neil

[DJole]

1 hour ago, NeilMott said:

I think I was getting some type of zig zag when I was stitching using that type of punch...probably bad technique when I started...  I guess the holes - when they are just circular - are more likely to tear out than if in diamond shape?  

I went ahead and ordered the KS Blade punch set...  I guess we'll see.  I'll experiment with a scrap piece and see if I can achieve straight stitches using both tools...  Will report back.  Hopefully will have the new chisels by the weekend.

My understanding is that the angled slits allow more stitches per inch, but also give the thread more "meat" to grab, meaning the stitches are less likely to tear out through the leather. For a small size project, like a watch band, this may be important. The angled slits also mean the holes are smaller in size, so you don't need bigger thread to 'fill' the hole. So the stitches per inch and the thread size are the two variables, rather than having to account for the hole size, also. 

Round holes are different -- to punch them out removes a bit more leather, and they can't be placed as close together as the angled slits or else  you get a postage-stamp perforation effect. (I see that many commercial kits use round holes -- I don't know if it's because it's easier for a machine to do that when cutting out the pieces of the kit, or because it's easier hand stitching for the beginner who is the market for the kits.)
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the diamond shaped awl (which is paralleled in shape by pricking irons and stitching chisels) pushes the leather fibers apart, whereas the round punch cuts through them. (I suspect that in reality they all cut through at least some number of fibers, but the round hole would cut more) Imagine a piece of woven cloth, where you push a needle between the fibers, leaving them intact, or cutting a tiny round hole, breaking some of the threads, thereby weakening the structure. I can't verify that this is actually what happens in leather, though, so I am merely sharing this as a possibility. 

If you are using the diamond shaped holes, or the traditional angled slits from an awl / pricking iron / stitching chisel, it is possible to get a "straight" stitch. You basically have to know how to correctly do the angled stitch, and then not do those things. It's not BAD technique, if that's the look you want! 
The angled stitch has historical precedent -- it's a marker of hand-sewn saddle stitching, the way it was done for many years. Machines can't do that -- they do a straight lock stitch.  In the end, it really is up to you and how you want your stitches to look. 

[NeilMott]

DJole, thank you very much for the lengthy response.  I'm definitely very new and appreciate all the information and perspective.  

I chose this style of punch so that I'm not cutting out a hole, but making a hole instead (pushing the fibers apart as you said) - similar to a traditional chisel (angled slits).  I prefer a wider hole distance (I chose 5.4mm hole spacing) so hopefully that means less of a chance of the thread tearing through a hole.  

When I mentioned that I thought my technique was bad it was because I was getting inconsistent stitching patterns.  I don't have an issue with a traditional stitch pattern - it's just not what I want for my watch straps.  That could always change...

Best,

Neil

[480volt]

Pricking irons and diamond awls are the traditional method and predate stitching “chisels” that blow a hole all the way through the work. As an experiment, you should try lightly laying out your stitches with the tool you have now, and make the holes with a diamond awl- one of the cheapo ones from Tandy would do, as long as you sharpen and polish it. You can make holes at any angle you like and see how it affects the appearance of the stitches. I use pricking irons and wheels for layout, but when I’m sewing, I’m just looking for a center: the angle is determined by how I’m holding the awl.

[DJole]

7 hours ago, NeilMott said:

DJole, thank you very much for the lengthy response.  I'm definitely very new and appreciate all the information and perspective.  

I chose this style of punch so that I'm not cutting out a hole, but making a hole instead (pushing the fibers apart as you said) - similar to a traditional chisel (angled slits).  I prefer a wider hole distance (I chose 5.4mm hole spacing) so hopefully that means less of a chance of the thread tearing through a hole.  

When I mentioned that I thought my technique was bad it was because I was getting inconsistent stitching patterns.  I don't have an issue with a traditional stitch pattern - it's just not what I want for my watch straps.  That could always change...

Best,

Neil

You're welcome. There's so MUCH information hidden away on this board that sometimes it's hard for a new person to locate it without sifting through hundreds of conversations over years of posting!

Your reasoning for the punch style makes sense. 
Have you had problems with thread tearing through holes before, so you want the holes a bit wider apart?  Under normal use, the holes shouldn't tear. I have a watch strap I made years ago (first one I ever tried...I'll never show it because it's UGLY!), but it shows no signs of the holes tearing through. Instead, I can see wear on the threads. 
Perhaps when you are sewing it, you are pulling too tight? I've done that a couple times... learned quickly to watch my tension. 
Watch straps use a lighter, thinner leather than many projects do, so I can see how that could be a concern. 

What you state about inconsistent stitching patterns is the basic struggle of beginners and hand stitching! It takes time and effort and concentration to keep one needle up and one down, cross one over the other, pull up with one and down with the other...for EVERY SINGLE STITCH! Repeat hundreds of time for big projects!
Then you realize that 5 stitches back you messed up, and you have to pull stitches out to redo that one...grrr...  and then when you pierce the one thread with the needle...grrr... Heh!
It takes concentration and a fair amount of practice to get into the smooth rhythm that people like Nigel Armitage shows in his expert instructional videos on hand stitching. 

At any rate, if you (and any customers) like the round hole stitching, then it's a matter of preference or style, and therefore not wrong! (There are even people who use a drill press with a very small drill bit to make stitching holes, because they find it easier.)
The baseball strap you posted a photo above is a great idea -- I have been kicking around the idea of doing a wallet using basketball leather.
 

[NeilMott]

I just started making straps but no, no problems tearing of leather.  I just like a chunkier look.  I like other straps I have with tighter stitch spacing, but for a chunkier look - larger thread and larger hole spacing is what I prefer.  I had thought of using a stitching wheel for spacing and a diamond shaped awl, but thought I'd get inconsistent hole shapes...  I do think that when I was stitching before, I wasn't pulling through the thread with each hand properly.  I hadn't discovered Nigel or Ian's videos yet.  Seeking a tighter hole idea is due to when I pull the thread through a hole, the thread wasn't immediately tight, until I had stitched another hole, which tightened the hole before it...  I think with a smaller hole, the threads would be tighter initially....  

 

I've heard of using a drill press for the stitching and buckle holes, but I don't have a drill press so it's not an option at this point.  I think a lot of people who do leatherwork also work with wood, so they have a lot of the bigger tools that can be used for both.  I'm scrapping for space in my office while trying not to get divorced in the process.

 

If you find any basketball leather please forward on the source.  Rocky Mountain leather has been out of it and baseball leather for a while now....last I checked anyway.  Working with gloves is fun once you figure out what parts you can use and what you can't use.  I've got another glove incoming today.  I'll post some pics when I'm done with it.  

Best,

Neil

[NeilMott]

Just an update.  I got the KS Blade punch irons on Sunday and was able to do a bit of stitching.  Makes really tight round holes.  Right now I'm using 0.8mm Tiger thread.  Using John James 000 needles was too big.  02 needles are ok but I'm going to try some 04 size...  These are super high quality.  I'm still intrigued with the idea of straight stitches with a slanted or diamond shape chisel...

Here's the in-progress shot.

[Tugadude]

NeilMott, I suggest you look at (if you haven't) Nigel Armitage's youtube videos on stitching.  He covers a lot of the basics and anyone can learn a lot by watching him.  He covers the traditional style pricking iron and awl stitching as well as over a dozen stitching chisels including the KS Blades chisels.  However, he demonstrates the ones with slanted teeth.

As I read some of the answers here I was reminded that experience is the best teacher.  Some of the advice clearly works for the person giving it, but to find the look that makes you happy you are going to have to sort it out yourself.

I'm not saying that any of the advice is wrong, but I found points on which I agreed and points on which I didn't.  I prefer slanted stitching and try my best to achieve it all the time, front and back.  Sometimes I'm more successful than others.  The type of leather matters, the thickness matters, the stiffness matters.  Then you add the irons, the thread, your stitching style and it really is a complicated matter.

In the end, find what works for you, what looks acceptable to your eye and appeals to your taste.

[NeilMott]

Hey all.

I couldn't really find another place that might be more appropriate to post.   While I like the straight stitch I think there's a lot to be said for a traditional stitch with a slight angle.  I tried casting while stitching (lock stitch) on these round dent irons and it gave a slight angle... I didn't mind it at all.  

I ended up watching Nigel's pricking/stitching iron reviews (nearly all of them, and some of them 2x) and I think I have a better sense of what I want.  I also re-read what everyone posted and it makes way more sense than before.  

I'm leaning towards a Japanese type of chisel (to punch through leather - no awl) as I want to have a point to help me punch in a straight line.  Nigel and also leathertoolz (on youtube) like Crimson Hide irons and Kevin Lee irons.  Nigel likens the CH irons to a row of awls and that a beginner all the way to intermediate leather smith could use.  Nigel hasn't done a review of Kevin Lee's Japanese style irons but really really liked the CH irons....  KL's are a little bit cheaper ($30 cheaper for a set of 2)...  I was also thinking 3.85mm (7 SPI) or 4mm (6 SPI) for the spacing for my watch straps and possibly some small leather goods in the future.  

Anyone have thoughts on KL vs CH and also spacing or SPI for watch straps?

Best,

Neil

[fredk]

afair You say you like the look of the larger spaced stitching - this could be 'you', your look, so go for a 6, its a good all-rounder as well. But also get a finer one, like 8 or 10 spi, small subjects like watch straps look better with a finer spi

[Tugadude]

18 hours ago, NeilMott said:

Hey all.

I couldn't really find another place that might be more appropriate to post.   While I like the straight stitch I think there's a lot to be said for a traditional stitch with a slight angle.  I tried casting while stitching (lock stitch) on these round dent irons and it gave a slight angle... I didn't mind it at all.  

I ended up watching Nigel's pricking/stitching iron reviews (nearly all of them, and some of them 2x) and I think I have a better sense of what I want.  I also re-read what everyone posted and it makes way more sense than before.  

I'm leaning towards a Japanese type of chisel (to punch through leather - no awl) as I want to have a point to help me punch in a straight line.  Nigel and also leathertoolz (on youtube) like Crimson Hide irons and Kevin Lee irons.  Nigel likens the CH irons to a row of awls and that a beginner all the way to intermediate leather smith could use.  Nigel hasn't done a review of Kevin Lee's Japanese style irons but really really liked the CH irons....  KL's are a little bit cheaper ($30 cheaper for a set of 2)...  I was also thinking 3.85mm (7 SPI) or 4mm (6 SPI) for the spacing for my watch straps and possibly some small leather goods in the future.  

Anyone have thoughts on KL vs CH and also spacing or SPI for watch straps?

Best,

Neil

Based on what I've seen on Nigel's videos and his written reviews on his website, I think if I were to buy a new set of irons for watch straps and other fine work, I'd go with the Kevin Lee 10 SPI French Pricking Irons.  They look amazing, work great and would suit your purposes quite well I think.