Hand quality stitching on a machine

[sbrownn]

Here are two images of the front and back side sewing.  For this experiment I glued two pieces of 6 oz bridle leather back to back and sewed them at a stitch length of 5mm.  If I had used a recommend size awl one half size larger than the needle and not pre pricked the holes the backside tearout would be obvious (don't ask how I know).  On the backside of this example the appearance of the stitch holes is obviously different but there is no apparent tear out. 

[dikman]

Not bad. I forgot to mention that I was referring to using "ordinary" lockstitch machines, not one of them old-fangled needle and awl thingy's.

Another thought re- my "idea" - use a pointed needle first to pre-punch the holes then use a leather needle to sew with, it should reduce the punch-through. Yes, I know, probably not very practical but just considering possibilities.

[RockyAussie]

Normally if the leather is not to dry and hard I don't seem to have much problems with the underside appearance as long as the tensions are reasonably tight top and bottom. I do use mostly normal lockstitch machines for my work. A good sharp needle does not tear its way through medium to soft temper leathers. If the leather is soft enough (Upholstry type) it can be sometimes hard to tell the top from the bottom stitch. If I was doing a lot of firm temper I just might think about making a spike on the dog foot as a pre hole presser but that may create unwanted marks around the corners and ends. Equally I suppose you could also create a bump at the back of the dog foot at the same stitch spacing that pushed the leather back up and into the knot hole area.

1 hour ago, sbrownn said:

The problem is that on most heavy leather machines the feed is assisted by either the needle or, if a needle and awl machine, the awl.  This requires a slotted plate, not a plate with just a hole.

All the machines I have, have dog feet that have a hole. On the large 441 style there is a long needle plate slot option but as I have a small dog foot and plate set for it I have not needed to use the long slotted plate one to date. I think there are some improvements being worked on for this narrow dog foot/needle plate set up at the moment over here in Aus.

[sbrownn]

21 hours ago, dikman said:

Not bad. I forgot to mention that I was referring to using "ordinary" lockstitch machines, not one of them old-fangled needle and awl thingy's.

Another thought re- my "idea" - use a pointed needle first to pre-punch the holes then use a leather needle to sew with, it should reduce the punch-through. Yes, I know, probably not very practical but just considering possibilities.

I think that is a good suggestion to try.

[sbrownn]

20 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Normally if the leather is not to dry and hard I don't seem to have much problems with the underside appearance as long as the tensions are reasonably tight top and bottom. I do use mostly normal lockstitch machines for my work. A good sharp needle does not tear its way through medium to soft temper leathers. If the leather is soft enough (Upholstry type) it can be sometimes hard to tell the top from the bottom stitch. If I was doing a lot of firm temper I just might think about making a spike on the dog foot as a pre hole presser but that may create unwanted marks around the corners and ends. Equally I suppose you could also create a bump at the back of the dog foot at the same stitch spacing that pushed the leather back up and into the knot hole area.

All the machines I have, have dog feet that have a hole. On the large 441 style there is a long needle plate slot option but as I have a small dog foot and plate set for it I have not needed to use the long slotted plate one to date. I think there are some improvements being worked on for this narrow dog foot/needle plate set up at the moment over here in Aus.

I have to admit that my quest is less of a practical nature than an experiment.  Since I only have the one machine I find myself having to use the wrong machine when I'm sewing thinner stuff.  I have seen pictures of your machines and I would love to have one but so far I haven't found one to buy.  I think having just a hole for the needle instead of a slot would help a lot.  I even considered making myself a needle plate that would have a hole that moved with the awl and then spring back to its initial position once the needle let it go.  I have some presser feet with bumps on them for the top but that's not where I need it and they don't work to go around corners.  Almost all of my work is with bridle leather and the stuff I'm making doesn't hide the backside stitch.  A good example is a journal cover.  For a journal cover you need both the front and back side stitches to look good because the user sees them all the time.  

[RockyAussie]

2 hours ago, sbrownn said:

Almost all of my work is with bridle leather and the stuff I'm making doesn't hide the backside stitch.  A good example is a journal cover.  For a journal cover you need both the front and back side stitches to look good because the user sees them all the time.  

Agreed and likewise I am always looking to improve the quality and speed of the work I do. A softer oil tan type leather should give a better result for a journal cover but all the same, one thing that is fairly common in the work I do is padding. Sometimes the padding is foam sometimes a soft leather and sometimes a sort of felt material. What this can do aside from a nice padded feel or structure form is allow the thread to pull down into the leather a little more and this can improve the overall stitch appearance. The foam compresses as the sewing machine goes across and as it uncompresses the stitch is then tighter down in the leather. The padding/foams I use are generally attached a couple of mm short of the edge and sometimes they are skived as well. Below are a couple of pictures to show how foam can give structure and aid to pull in the stitching.

This first one shows the bags before their liners are put in and the foam is visible and stitching is sunken in.

This one shows the liners installed and now stitched up.

I would like to suggest doing the same trials you did with a little padding and compare the results. Sometimes it can take a bit of sorting to get the best results.

 

[Matt S]

From a purely pragmatic approach, using a matching thread colour on the backside does tend to hide a lot of cosmetic issues with the stitches, as does hammering and/or rubbing. Sometimes increasing the needle thread tension pulls the backside stitches in sufficiently to neaten the look on jobs that are being difficult however this is a balancing act, especially if you're using thread sizes that are at the high end for the thickness of leather being sewn.

I've also found that on some leathers, dampening the back of the leather before stitching reduces blowout and allows the stitches to sink in a little more, which neatens their appearance.

[oltoot]

IMHO if a Union Lock is properly adjusted and set up for the work, it makes prettier work, front and back than can be reasonably hand stitched. The 441s took over because they are much easier to mfg and learn to use and better for fabric than N&A

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, oltoot said:

IMHO if a Union Lock is properly adjusted and set up for the work, it makes prettier work, front and back than can be reasonably hand stitched. The 441s took over because they are much easier to mfg and learn to use and better for fabric than N&A

This was my finding also. I've owned two ULS machines and both produced awesome stitches. If one has a "stepping foot, the top stitches get pushed down on the ends,  giving them a rounded appearance. Unfortunately, there is no such attachment for the bottom (wouldn't that be awesome though?).

[sbrownn]

22 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Agreed and likewise I am always looking to improve the quality and speed of the work I do. A softer oil tan type leather should give a better result for a journal cover but all the same, one thing that is fairly common in the work I do is padding. Sometimes the padding is foam sometimes a soft leather and sometimes a sort of felt material. What this can do aside from a nice padded feel or structure form is allow the thread to pull down into the leather a little more and this can improve the overall stitch appearance. The foam compresses as the sewing machine goes across and as it uncompresses the stitch is then tighter down in the leather. The padding/foams I use are generally attached a couple of mm short of the edge and sometimes they are skived as well. Below are a couple of pictures to show how foam can give structure and aid to pull in the stitching.

This first one shows the bags before their liners are put in and the foam is visible and stitching is sunken in.

This one shows the liners installed and now stitched up.

I would like to suggest doing the same trials you did with a little padding and compare the results. Sometimes it can take a bit of sorting to get the best results.

 

Thank you so much for the advice.

8 hours ago, Matt S said:

From a purely pragmatic approach, using a matching thread colour on the backside does tend to hide a lot of cosmetic issues with the stitches, as does hammering and/or rubbing. Sometimes increasing the needle thread tension pulls the backside stitches in sufficiently to neaten the look on jobs that are being difficult however this is a balancing act, especially if you're using thread sizes that are at the high end for the thickness of leather being sewn.

I've also found that on some leathers, dampening the back of the leather before stitching reduces blowout and allows the stitches to sink in a little more, which neatens their appearance.

All good tips, especially the dampening.  I'm sure I read that before somewhere but thanks for reminding me.