Speed reducer vs. EPS

[TaylorM]

Many of you have briefly spoken into this but I was hoping for some clarification. In buying the Cobra Class 26, It comes with a speed reducer. The TechSew 2750 doesn’t come with a speed reducer but has the needle positioning system. I also think Wiz maybe recommended not having a speed reducer with an EPS? 
 

Can some of you speak more on why you prefer having one over the other so I can better decide between the two? It seems like most people say they have a speed reducer so they do not need an EPS, but from my newbie perspective, it just sounds so convenient and intriguing so why not have it if I can? Plus Stock and Barrel and Little King Goods spoke highly of it. Or clear up my confusion that I maybe shouldn’t have both together? Do I even need a speed reducer if I have the needle positioning system? 
 

I appreciate all of your help in my beginning of understanding these sewing machines. Not sure where I would be without all of the help. 

[Kcstott]

I don't own a cobra class anything but will in the next week or so. 

My understanding is: I want them both, but I may not be able to swing the cost of EPS on a class 4 machine. 
I for sure want a speed reducer to make it easier to control the work and stitch placement. EPS is there (I assume) to help with production as it positions the needle where you need it for what you are doing with nothing more than a position of the pedal. 

[mikesc]

Speed reducer is a "must have"*..
EPS is a nice option if you think that you'll use it..
( I have one on my Juki 490-4..EFKA control box with very slow speed built in, *doesn't need a speed reducer, although I could fit an additional one and thus be able to make coffee while a stitch was forming ;-)..I keep the EPS switched off ) ..My Singers have speed reducers and servos..no EPS..
If you are getting a machine with a speed reducer and a servo supplied by a dealer, it would be better to let them set up the EPS, if you decide that you want it..EPS can be awkward ( in some cases impossible ) to get working with a speed reducer..

Speed reducers give you waaaay more slow control..and more torque..to better punch through ..

EPS is really a "garment industry" thing for high speed sewing machines..servos can also run fast.

Edited February 6, 2020 by mikesc

[Pintodeluxe]

Unless servo motors improve greatly, I wouldn't want to be without a speed reducer.  I'm happy with a speed reducer alone, but of course it depends on what you make.  I use a box style reducer that mounts where the servo normally sits.  The only negative is it's a little harder to turn the handwheel by hand.  On the bright side, you don't really need to turn by hand because you can sew stitch by stitch with the pedal.  

I don't like the idea of the sewing machine deciding if the needle stops in the up or down position.  I want to make that decision.  And the upholstery work I like to do is MUCH less demanding than traditional leather work.  I would think if you're making wallets, the speed reducer would be the way to go.  

Ask half a dozen people and you'll get six different opinions I'm sure.  

[toxo]

As a fairly newbie I don't know how qualified I am to answer this and how much my opinion is worth but once I got used the foot movements I think it's great to stop sewing and just worry about the knee lift to turn or heel down to remove the work. I never touch the hand lifter.

[keithski122]

I'll say the opposite to everyone else.

I don't have a speed reducer but do have a servo with positioner it also has a half stitch button. I can stitch one stitch at a time with the pedal even at slow speed its very controllable with no need to go slower.I could use the half stitch button but very rarely do. The needle stopping in the down postion is great allowing me to stop where I need, give a little knee action on the knee lift, change direction and off again.Heel back and the needle will rise, fully heel back and the foot will rise.I casn set it to cut the thread on fully hel back but don't as I normally run on to scrap material.

[mikesc]

I also removed my thread cutter..it cut the "tails" too short to "sew back in"...:)
All depends on what you are making and how you prefer to work..

Half stitch button ( "jog" button ) is a neat extra..I have one..but don't have any use for it on the machine ( Juki ) that it is fitted on, and as I have the EPS switched off..that cancels the jog button..

Aside..Lady I bought the machine from, had never had the "heel back" explained to her by the dealer that sold her the machine..She was amazed when I did a heel back when testing the machine before I bought it from her..She was basically terrified of the machine..industrial sewing machines can be like that to some people..

My first post here, was to ask for help in understanding the various "unusual" settings on that machine..got no replies..

Then, by the time I had figured some of it out (Efka control box and motor .. and .. differential top and bottom feed system )..I sent a pm to Eric ( gottaknow ) to whom I shall be forever grateful : ) , he sent me a link to the service and operators manual for that machine..

Edited February 6, 2020 by mikesc

[dikman]

As mike pointed out the EPS/NPS is really suited to the garment industry where they are generally sewing at high speed. I think it's safe to say that most of us leather sewers prefer slow speed to give better control over stitch placement - on a garment one stitch too many won't matter but on a leather item it can ruin all the good work you've put in! I bought a servo with one because it seemed like a good idea, but when I tried it out I found it was quite easy to end up with an extra stitch, so stopped using it. I use speed reducers (or fit a large pulley in place of the handwheel which achieves the same result) and in my opinion they are far more useful for sewing leather and like mike I consider them a "must have". They also increase torque and make it easier for the needle to punch through thick/stiff/hard leather.

 

Be aware that not all EPS/NPS will work with a speed reducer (mine won't). If you want both you're better off getting them at the time of purchase to make sure that they work together.

[R8R]

I'll add...

Most basic motors work well with speed reducers but not all EPS motors will. Many reducers are made from large cast iron pulley wheels and act as a fly-wheel. They have ratio reduction AND inertia. EPS doesn't always play well with this.

I do mostly heavy woven fabrics with lighter leather trims and I use EPS all the time. Having the ability to tap for a single stitch is AWESOME. The motors I use have two stage EPS (needle up or down) and the option of switching the EPS function off and on. I think I found the best of both worlds as the motors I use have EPS *and* a boat load of torque and load speed control.

Seiko HVP-70 (great motor if you can find one)

SP-1100-NPFL (Keystone sells these)

[chrisash]

If you look at the new Tandy sewing machine , the video of it shows the great control you get from a speed reducer, which is built into that model, its like stitching in slow motion or as fast as you want

[RockyAussie]

I find that the EPS function comes in extremely useful when doing tight curves as in wallets when they are stitched all the way around gussets in handbags and such for the reason that as the curve gets tight it is necessary to take the foot pressure off and let the top relax. If you were hand stitching you would need to have the holes inside the curve closer together than the outside curve of the article. When I stitch the bottom of the gusset in these clutch bags I lift the foot maybe 15 or so times and the needle stays in to keep every thing straight. The leather that has the pressure taken off then allows the needle on the next step to go slightly further on top. With out this happening the bag would deform quite badly and end up twisted. You can do this with a knee lift or foot pedal but the time and attention would make it way slower.

This pic shows some of my typical clutch bags with a fairly tight gusset area.

This wallet shows how I prefer to stitch all the way around if possible and that requires 2 or 3 foot lifts in the tight area and is handy for the corner turning as well.

A bag like this one requires many foot lifts in many places and although quite thick and hard did not need any speed reducer.

I can only add that if you can take a bit of firm/hard leather and try out one with an EPS it should help make a decision that suits you best.

 

[Hockeymender]

I have an EPS on all but two of my machines. One also has both an EPS and a speed reducer. The control I get with the auto positioning of the needle makes my work much easier. The slow precise stitching I do pretty much demands it. As an aside, the EPS and speed reducer get along fine on my machine. 

[dfrensdorff]

As mentioned above, I as well have both speed reducer and EPS on my Techsew 5100 and they get along fine. 

[Constabulary]

Seems it depends on the installed motor if SR and EPS (or NPS) can work together. I remember a post here where a member from Germany added a 2nd magnet to the EPS sensor and solved the issue but I´m not sure if this works on all servo motors - I doubt this. I´m one of those who do not need at EPS (yet - but you never know).

Edited February 7, 2020 by Constabulary

[mikesc]

dfrensdorff..I seem to remember before ( a year or more ago ) someone saying that Servo+speed reducer+EPS worked well on Techsew..was that you ?
Is that all set up at purchase ? Not that I'm in the market, but might well help for others to know..

What is your machine that has it Joe ? a Techsew..or something else ?

[Hockeymender]

Consew 227R-2. Goldstar 500W motor with synchronizer.

[Techsew Ron]

3 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Is that all set up at purchase ? Not that I'm in the market, but might well help for others to know..
 

Yes this is something we set up at the time of the order. No issues here with speed reducer + EPS combo.

There are lots of EPS motors out there, some might not have the appropriate programming to allow for use with a speed reducer.

[toxo]

I should add that my NPS is mounted on the 170mm pulley that replaced the original handwheel on my Durkopp 239. Had to make a bracket to fit it.

[dfrensdorff]

52 minutes ago, mikesc said:

dfrensdorff..I seem to remember before ( a year or more ago ) someone saying that Servo+speed reducer+EPS worked well on Techsew..was that you ?
Is that all set up at purchase ? Not that I'm in the market, but might well help for others to know..

What is your machine that has it Joe ? a Techsew..or something else ?

It wasn’t me ..... but like I said mine works well together, and I love the needle positioning portion of the drill!

[Constabulary]

Maybe we should compile a list of servo motors that work with speed reducers of certain reduction ratios.

Could be helpful when looking for a specific servo motor

Edited February 7, 2020 by Constabulary

[dikman]

On 2/8/2020 at 2:28 AM, Constabulary said:

Seems it depends on the installed motor if SR and EPS (or NPS) can work together. I remember a post here where a member from Germany added a 2nd magnet to the EPS sensor and solved the issue but I´m not sure if this works on all servo motors - I doubt this. I´m one of those who do not need at EPS (yet - but you never know).

You're right, it didn't work on mine. With a speed reducer the NPS wouldn't work at all, just locked up the machine, so I added the extra magnet and this time it ran but I couldn't choose whether it stopped needle up or down, sometimes up, sometimes down. I think the problem is that there is no option within the parameters to change this when using two magnets. Doesn't really matter as I don't need the NPS, I was just curious whether I could get it to work.