insole stitcher needle size 45x230 = which thread?

[Con]

I am thinking of buying an insole stitcher – a manual basic machine listed as RC-32-4A (see pic) from www.robinindustry.com Bobbin arm at 20mm thick. On inquiring I am told the needle size is 45x230 but I'm not familiar with needle to thread size options... I am looking for some guidance from members who have knowledge about this needle to thread challenge. Twisted waxed linen and sometimes polyester thread of 1mm round is what I use when hand sewing a midsole to a one piece upper and this works fine. If I use the same thread would this be tight or sloppy as a lock stitch in a hole made by a “needle size of 45x230” is my question. Any guidance appreciated.

[chrisash]

Needle size 230 is equal to thread size 207 = tkt size 15 giving a thread diameter of .0231 of a inch or 0.586 mm 

see https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html

[Northmount]

@Con moved your post to leather sewing machines.

Tom

 

[Wizcrafts]

On 4/26/2020 at 8:38 PM, Con said:

needle size of 45x230

This is a needle "System," not a size. The system seems to be rare. I have only found these needles for sale in Germany (online stores) and then only in "size" 26. This is a very big needle that can sew with up to #346 bonded nylon thread.

[Wizcrafts]

As a follow-up, I recommend contacting Robin about where they get their needles and if they can supply them to you in various "sizes."

On 4/26/2020 at 8:38 PM, Con said:

Twisted waxed linen and sometimes polyester thread of 1mm round is what I use when hand sewing a midsole to a one piece upper and this works fine. If I use the same thread would this be tight or sloppy as a lock stitch in a hole made by a “needle size of 45x230” is my question.

FYI: There is no needle size commonly available that can easily pass 1mm waxed thread in a closed eye lockstitch machine currently in production. The largest needle listed in this chart is a #30 (Metric 330). Even that huge needle isn't large enough to clear 1mm diameter thread, especially if it is waxed.

What machine do you need to sew with 1mm waxed linen thread?

You need a shoe sole stitcher like a Landis 12 series curved needle and awl lockstitch machine. There might possibly be some huge needles and awls available for a McKay insole chainstitch machine, which is really what you'll want for midsoles. Here is a YouTube video about the McKay stitcher's threading and usage.

Campbell-Randall Lockstitch, Union Lockstitch and Landis 3 are needle and awl machines then can take huge needles and awls, IF there are any still available. I used to own a Union Lockstitch machine and had acquired a huge assortment of needles, some of which could handle 10 cord linen thread! They closely resembled roofing nails!

My personal guess is that the Robin machine in question may be limited to about 1/2 mm thread. The needle size required for that diameter is #23 (metric #160)

[Constabulary]

I assume the needle is similar to 328 / 214x1 since the GA5-1 / GA5-5  sewing machine is mentioned and AFAIK they take 328 needles - but I may be wrong.

EDIT:

just found this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TWENTY-SEWLINE-NEEDLES-FOR-SL-5-1-and-GA-5-1-45-230-INDUSTRIAL-SEWING-MACHINE-/222275233412

scroll down to the machine list - Singer 45 is mentioned so is must be the 214x1 / 328 needle but better check with the machine seller.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Constabulary

[Wizcrafts]

I just sent a message to Robin on Facebook, asking about the thread and needle handling maximums (and max stitch length) and if they supply needles. I will post their reply after I get it.

[jimi]

I think maybe they are referring to what Folker is saying?? If the arm is 20mm thick and if that is the bobbins hanging on the arm of the machine then it is not going to hold a lot of 1mm thick linen that you want??? Just if you were wondering the Frobana uses size 3,4 and 5 needles, nº5 having a 1mm eye (just measured it ) and the needle for that is Syst. 761 PG L.

[Bert51]

Thanks Constabulary, I think I understand how they have shown the sizing.

They seem to show it as a Singer 45 Needle, Size 230, when they should have shown it as a  328 or 214x1 or 2.

Bert.

[Con]

Hi all, thank you for the replies. I use a Junker & Ruh SD28 for outsoles with 1mm twisted waxed thread. I clean the bobbin from wax buildup after it gets empty. One bobbin does two outsoles with thread left over. The Junker & Ruh SD28 sews the rubber outsole to the midsole very nicely, it leaves a topstitch that 'sits' into the rubber a bit but as it is a lock stitch and the shoes/boots are made on a last, the thread does not touch the ground unless the sole is worn down by 3-4mm - it should have been resoled before that wear / abuse. 

The needle size of the RC-32-4A  is quite confusing at 45x230. Questions about this to Robin get no reply - that is why I asked here.  It is unlikely to be for 0.5mm thread as the image of shoes on the page for the insole stitcher also show the soles stitched and it looks at least 1mm / 2mm - see pic attached. The attached image below is of an outsole sewn to a shoe upper -  I intend to sew a 3 or 4mm veg tan midsole to the upper with a RC-32-4A and to then sew a rubber outsole to the midsole using the Junker & Ruh SD28. I currently sew the midsole to the upper by hand and the outsole to the midsole using the Junker & Ruh SD28.  The small bobbin capacity of the RC-32-4A may be sufficient for 2 midsoles, but even 1 is ok.

I make modern wearable versions of bronze age to medieval age Irish shoes and boots based on my researching of museum grade artifacts. I can actually produce this footwear completely by hand at home. The hand sewing of the midsole to the one piece upper is 'unnecessary hardship'  and the RC-32-4A looks like the solution my small scale plan requires.

I do not want to have to guess the thread for the 45x230 needle as I cannot buy thread in Ireland so have to rely on the internet - flat braided is often sold as round twisted...

I'll try Robin again.

Thanks for the support.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Con

[Bert51]

The needle hole size is 230, which should handle thread that is 346 (T350) [Tkt 8] , but if you need heavier I have 328 needles with a hole size of30/330 which should handle thread sized 554 (T600) [Tkt 5] .

The above information is taken from the link given by chrisash here, https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html

Bert.

[Con]

4 hours ago, Bert51 said:

The needle hole size is 230, which should handle thread that is 346 (T350) [Tkt 8] , but if you need heavier I have 328 needles with a hole size of30/330 which should handle thread sized 554 (T600) [Tkt 5] .

The above information is taken from the link given by chrisash here, https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html

Bert.

Thanks Bert. You have given me the keys to better understand the challenge. I had found that Toledo webpage before but I could not understand how to use it. The .828mm needle diameter of the 330 needle does not suggest that it can sew with 1mm thread. I do not know if the RC-32-4A  will take the needles you describe. I have emailed Robin Industries again - I'll share their response here. Thanks again.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Con

[jimi]

Ahhh...I think you need the other little Junker & Ruh then, that does the blake stitch????right..they are harder to find....

 

[Con]

2 hours ago, jimi said:

Ahhh...I think you need the other little Junker & Ruh then, that does the blake stitch????right..they are harder to find....

 

ah, the SK - not cheap but also does a rope stitch that looks bulky on the midsole - my hand stitching uses a 2 x 1mm waxed thread bypass knot, the Robin RC-32-4A  does a lock stitch and that is my  preferred option. Jimi - the SK from about €1k and the RC-32-4A at €330 - I go for the RC-32-4A  - I want it to use 1mm waxed cord but I do not know if it can take it. If Robin replies I'll share it here. Thanks again Jimi. Regards Con

[jimi]

8 hours ago, Con said:

the SK from about €1k and the RC-32-4A at €330

Well i´am sure you can get them a lot cheaper than €1K!!! Good luck with the machine Con.

[Wizcrafts]

16 hours ago, Con said:

If Robin replies I'll share it here.

Not only have they not answered you; they haven't answered my email or Facebook Messenger questions either. Methinks they may be (temporarily?) closed for business.

[Con]

18 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Not only have they not answered you; they haven't answered my email or Facebook Messenger questions either. Methinks they may be (temporarily?) closed for business.

Hi, I just got a reply that includes " The thread you can use 6shares or 9shares , both are ok, the 4A is stiting the upper soles, " = confusion...

I reckon she means 6ply and 9ply but that does not actually give the thread diameter... It may be the fault of googletranslator!!!

I will reply with shorter sentences...

Thx Wizcraft - the hunt for accurate info continues...

[Wizcrafts]

7 hours ago, Con said:

Hi, I just got a reply that includes " The thread you can use 6shares or 9shares , both are ok, the 4A is stiting the upper soles, " = confusion...

Oy Vey! That's one hell of a non answer. See if there are any social media user groups for Robin Industry. Maybe somebody somewhere owns these machines and can actually give accurate information.

[Con]

Hi, will not tell me the thread size nor approved suppliers for thread but they have informed me that the cost incl post is now $380.... loosing confidence in their products...

[BobbErr]

Old Thread. I bought one of these. The needle size is DDX1 230/26. Same with the Sl 26 side stitcher which I also have. They both stitch well with .8mm braided kevlar. Some modification may be needed to use 1mm or above - I'm working on that. I broke the teeth on the bobbin shuttle driver thingy on the insole machine before I identified the problem. Replacement parts are on the way. Both machines have a much larger bobbin than the ordinary clsp  Sl 18 patcher.

I tried 1.1mm braided kevlar. It seems to get stuck in the needle hole. I switched to a 250/27 needle. The needle doesn't seem to be the problem. Does anyone know if you can grind out the hole to allow the use of thicker thread?

For those who are metrically challenged I believe 1.1mm is roughly equivalent to Size 554 / Tex 600 / Govt. 8-Cord . Not certain of .8mm but possibly similar to Size 346 / Tex 350 / Govt. 5-Cord ?

I have also ordered the Sl 28 which seems to be a superior alternative to the regular clsp patcher. The needle size is likely 28. It has a much larger bobbin  - 3cm diameter (well over 1 inch) and is capable of stitching through up to 3cm. Or so I am told.  That one should sew with 1mm thread or more straight out of the box. I think.

This is the one 32-3A Flat head shoe sewing machine http://robinindustry.com/product/274.html

 

For those who are interested in the insole machine I would encourage you to ask Robin about the RC 32 4A1 - which is the bigger brother. They have not made it yet but if enough people are interested they will. I am told they need to make a minimum of 100 units. It is capable of sewing through thicker leather and has a longer lower arm which would be very handy for larger boots/shoes.

[Northmount]

8 hours ago, BobbErr said:

For those who are metrically challenged I believe 1.1mm is roughly equivalent to Size 554 / Tex 600 / Govt. 8-Cord . Not certain of .8mm but possibly similar to Size 346 / Tex 350 / Govt. 5-Cord ?

See this needle/thread chart

 

[kgg]

10 hours ago, BobbErr said:

For those who are metrically challenged I believe 1.1mm is roughly equivalent to Size 554 / Tex 600 / Govt. 8-Cord . Not certain of .8mm but possibly similar to Size 346 / Tex 350 / Govt. 5-Cord ?

You are a little off as .8mm thread is a touch smaller then V554 thread.

The size of needle you would need for V554 is a #30 and drilling out the eye of the needle probably could be done with the proper equipment but you run the chance of weakening the needle. Other considerations even if you could find the proper needle for 1.1 mm thread could the one armed bandit's needle bar accommodate the needle or provide enough punching power to drive the needle through what you are trying to sew as well as there would there be enough head space between the needle and hook?

Just a couple of thoughts.

kgg

Edited March 24 by kgg

[BobbErr]

Thanks guys. I will try a larger needle. I have some DYX1 7X1 300 needles and some 330 samples on the way. I will try them. The machines stitch fine with the .8mm thread and the supplied 230 needles. I thought there may have been some sort of interference between the arm of the machine and the bobbin carrier with the 1.1mm thread. I thought it might require grinding away the bobbin carrier or something like that to allow thicker thread. Could be wrong. We'll see.

I have been told by a needle company rep that a 250 needle should handle 1mm+ monofilament. Whatever that is - fishing line?

 

Edited March 25 by BobbErr
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