Awl makers

[Retswerb]

24 minutes ago, FrenchMich said:

I master these areas of engineering quite well but the English is not my native language and it's not easy to to me to follow this kind of conversation. I'm afraid to write nonsences whitch will be misinterpreted

You’re doing well so far. As you say, technical discussions are challenging in a second language and go beyond simple conversation! Thanks for the effort you’re putting in to engage here.

As for the awls, I’m interested in the Jerome David products although they are probably outside of my price range. I’ll send you a PM (private message).

[Spyros]

32 minutes ago, FrenchMich said:

I master these areas of engineering quite well but the English is not my native language and it's not easy to to me to follow this kind of conversation. I'm afraid to write nonsences whitch will be misinterpreted.

Same for me but keep writing, you'll see it gets a lot better very quickly.  Your English is probably better than mine 5 years ago.

[Matt S]

4 hours ago, jcuk said:

 Cheers yes have seen them but not in SPI i need 

What SPI are you after? Maybe they would be willing to make you one custom?

Alternatively, some of the people who used to work for Dixons are making irons again on their own hook. I wonder if they would be willing to do something to your spec?

[FrenchMich]

Sorry, but can I ask you what is it ''SPI''?

[jcuk]

4 hours ago, Matt S said:

What SPI are you after? Maybe they would be willing to make you one custom?

Alternatively, some of the people who used to work for Dixons are making irons again on their own hook. I wonder if they would be willing to do something to your spec?

Have thought about asking Barnsley about that, 6 or 7 SPI, yes i know some of the people who were at Dixons are making some tools but not sure how or where to contact them.

Thanks again

JCUK

2 hours ago, FrenchMich said:

Sorry, but can I ask you what is it ''SPI''?

Stitches Per Inch we still work in old money over here or some of us do, i can use the metric system but was taught to work in the imperial method and prefer it, oddly though we use mm to measure the weight of the leather.

By the way nice work.

Hope this helps

JCUK 

Edited September 1, 2020 by jcuk

[Matt S]

23 minutes ago, jcuk said:

Have thought about asking Barnsley about that, 6 or 7 SPI, yes i know some of the people who were at Dixons are making some tools but not sure how or where to contact them.

I reckon it'd be worth emailing or calling Barnsley, seeing what they can do. The contact I had for the ex-Dixons iron maker (Leather 4 Craft) seems to have stopped taking orders for them. Otherwise... how handy are you with layout tools and a file? Dixons irons were AFAIK always soft mild steel and almost entirely hand cut, right to the end...

As it happens I have a left handed iron marked 6, but it's more like a 6.5 (sits between my right handed 6 and 7 Dixons so the stitches don't line up!).

[jcuk]

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

Personally I'm very happy with my Chinese steel.  It works for me 

 

Glad to her that but its not just the steel with me, i would like to know how ethical they are in treating their work force and environment in the production of said products and other products in general, how they can under cut companies here by maybe paying there workforce peanuts in doing so putting pressure on good old companies else where in the world, we have seen one good tool maker go out of business trying to compete with cheaper imports towards the end the tools being made were not as good as the older tools that were made, maybe because they were cutting costs trying to compete, sadly think it maybe happening to a good tool companies across the pond hopefully i am wrong about this but it does seem there have been some issues with the quality of their newer tools.  I for one have first hand knowledge of this.

Just  another big issue with me about things coming out of there is the thing that has been unleashed upon the world they are not telling the truth about that in my opinion - more to it than meets the eye on that one.

And yes i know this is a leather forum. 

JCUK   

[jcuk]

1 hour ago, Matt S said:

I reckon it'd be worth emailing or calling Barnsley, seeing what they can do. The contact I had for the ex-Dixons iron maker (Leather 4 Craft) seems to have stopped taking orders for them. Otherwise... how handy are you with layout tools and a file? Dixons irons were AFAIK always soft mild steel and almost entirely hand cut, right to the end...

As it happens I have a left handed iron marked 6, but it's more like a 6.5 (sits between my right handed 6 and 7 Dixons so the stitches don't line up!).

That the thing you will be better off using left and right handed irons of the same make so they match up the same each side of your work looked into Blanchard hellish expensive for the four irons i would need especially as this might just turn out to be a one off job and i have done without them this long. Think the older style irons on Abbeys site  are also made by ex Dixons workers can't be sure.

JCUK 

 

[FrenchMich]

Jcuk,

I didn't know this abbreviation but in Europe we also work with the same system and all the leather tools as  Stitching claws are in SPI too.
I'm happy to know this detail thank you

Mich'

 

[Matt S]

13 minutes ago, jcuk said:

That the thing you will be better off using left and right handed irons of the same make so they match up the same each side of your work looked into Blanchard hellish expensive for the four irons i would need especially as this might just turn out to be a one off job and i have done without them this long. Think the older style irons on Abbeys site  are also made by ex Dixons workers can't be sure

Yeah it's a bugger. Can't remember where I got it from now, probably a job lot of tools. You're right about the older/English style irons that Abbey sells they look dead like late Dixons. Maybe it's worth emailing Abbey? They're usually pretty good at replying constructively to odd requests.

11 minutes ago, FrenchMich said:

I didn't know this abbreviation but in Europe we also work with the same system and all the leather tools as  Stitching claws are in SPI too.

The funny thing is, Blanchard appears to use pouce (Fr. inch = 27.07mm) rather than English/American inch (25.4mm). Pouce hasn't been used officially since the revolution but I suspect was used informally for far longer.

[jcuk]

17 minutes ago, FrenchMich said:

Jcuk,

I didn't know this abbreviation but in Europe we also work with the same system and all the leather tools as  Stitching claws are in SPI too.
I'm happy to know this detail thank you

Mich'

 

No worries we are all here to learn and help

JCUK

 

[FrenchMich]

Matt, Every body here use US inch (25,4 mm)Blanchard included.

[jcuk]

31 minutes ago, Matt S said:

Yeah it's a bugger. Can't remember where I got it from now, probably a job lot of tools. You're right about the older/English style irons that Abbey sells they look dead like late Dixons. Maybe it's worth emailing Abbey? They're usually pretty good at replying constructively to odd requests.

The funny thing is, Blanchard appears to use pouce (Fr. inch = 27.07mm) rather than English/American inch (25.4mm). Pouce hasn't been used officially since the revolution but I suspect was used informally for far longer.

Have spoke to Abbey they said they have tried for five years to get tools made in the UK sadly could not find anyone hopefully in future they will think again, its all about cost i think but because they have saved a few firms here such as Equus, with others Sedgewicks to name a couple, a lot of saddlers may have struggled to get supplies they would need from inside the UK might bite the bullet and may have to eat some humble pie still undecided on that one.

Wow great knowledge on Blanchard no wonder we wanted out can't even agree on measurements lol !

JCUK 

P.S. Looks like i jumped the gun sorry Mich that's what a glass wine or three can do to you

Edited September 1, 2020 by jcuk

[Matt S]

7 minutes ago, FrenchMich said:

Matt, Every body here use US inch (25,4 mm)Blanchard included.

We had a thread about it a while back -- somebody noticed that VB's numbers don't tally with an English/American inch at 25.4mm though they are pretty close. Someone else pointed out that they're pretty much bob on for the old French inch at 27mm. Can't find the thread now.

I took the sizes from VB's website and calculated a few values. You can see that their sizing perfectly matches the old French inch. On their own they are close enough as makes no difference but try to match a stitch line marked with a No6 VB portmanteau (left handed) griffe a molar with a stitch line marked with a Dixons No10 RH pricking iron and you'll get a slight misalignment. Not much per stitch but those fractions of a mm will add up over a short stretch.

point n° 03 = 9,00 mm between each prong ¦ 27/3 = 9.00 ¦ 25.4/3 = 8.46
point n° 04 = 6,75 mm between each prong ¦ 27/4 = 6.75 ¦ 25.4/4 = 6.35
point n° 05 = 5,40 mm between each prong ¦ 27/5 = 5.4  ¦ 25.4/5 = 5.08 
point n° 06 = 4,50 mm between each prong ¦ 27/6 = 4.5  ¦ 25.4/6 = 4.23
point n° 07 = 3,85 mm between each prong
point n° 08 = 3,38 mm between each prong
point n° 09 = 3,00 mm between each prong
point n° 10 = 2,70 mm between each prong
point n° 11 = 2,45 mm between each prong
point n° 12 = 2,25 mm between each prong
point n° 13 = 2,07 mm between each prong
point n° 14 = 1,92 mm between each prong ¦ 27/14 = 1.92 ¦ 25.4/14 = 1.81

 

[Samalan]

On 6/6/2020 at 11:44 AM, chuck123wapati said:

I agree with Tugadude also and adding my two cents to the conversation get your self a good set of hands free magnifying glasses so you don't jack up your new awl when sharpening it. 

A good set lol my dentist asked me if i would like to order a pair like she has she says they are  $ 2,500 but very nice set of magnifiers! wow the ones i use are 30 bucks

[Spyros]

8 hours ago, jcuk said:

Glad to her that but its not just the steel with me, i would like to know how ethical they are in treating their work force and environment in the production of said products and other products in general, how they can under cut companies here by maybe paying there workforce peanuts in doing so putting pressure on good old companies else where in the world, we have seen one good tool maker go out of business trying to compete with cheaper imports towards the end the tools being made were not as good as the older tools that were made, maybe because they were cutting costs trying to compete, sadly think it maybe happening to a good tool companies across the pond hopefully i am wrong about this but it does seem there have been some issues with the quality of their newer tools.  I for one have first hand knowledge of this.

Just  another big issue with me about things coming out of there is the thing that has been unleashed upon the world they are not telling the truth about that in my opinion - more to it than meets the eye on that one.

And yes i know this is a leather forum. 

JCUK   

All valid concerns - as is my concern of how friggin greedy can a non-Chinese company be, trying to sell me a bunch of laminated offcuts cut by a C&C as a traditional saddlers clam for USD$200.  I'm not prepared to support anyone blindly just because of country of origin, they need to convince me first.

We can use our power as customers to boycott products from certain areas, and we probably should.  But ultimately if there is going to be change in industrial & labour relationships within a country that change has to also come from within, you can't just force it from outside or you risk making bunches of people even worse off.  Or, more commonly, end up banging your head against a brick wall and achieving nothing.  

I do take your points, they're all valid.  Just saying it's not very simple.  And at the end of the day I don't know how much people got paid to make this particular tool, it wasn't exactly cheap either.   Maybe what would help from our end is to stop buying their cheap crap (which to be honest is what we mostly do) and buy the better things they make (because they do make a lot of that too) so at least they actually have more money to pay.  I don't know the answer.  But I am happy to listen and participate in anything that makes sense.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Spyros

[Spyros]

9 hours ago, jcuk said:

Stitches Per Inch we still work in old money over here or some of us do, i can use the metric system but was taught to work in the imperial method and prefer it, oddly though we use mm to measure the weight of the leather.

Nothing odd really about not using weight measurements to describe thickness.  There must be a reason they started to do it initially, probably for lack of widely available tools, but in 2020 it's basically insanity.

[FrenchMich]

Hello Matt

The proof that we should never be too assertive. I didn't know and I again learned something.

Thanks for that.

Mich'

[chuck123wapati]

On 9/1/2020 at 1:58 AM, Spyros said:

There was a lot of early tools that were extremely overengineered, and some people loved it.  Like if you open up an early electric drill chances are it's all metal, weighs a tonne, and feels like it's gonna last for centuries.  In the end most people felt there's really no need for that, and plastic won over for practical and cost reasons.   I sometimes side with A and sometimes with B.  

I have to disagree plastic won over simply from a manufacturing cost savings and profitability. Find any tool you have thrown away or is broken and if there is plastic used its usually the broken part. It was "sold" to the public as better and many believe it because it is all they have known but in reality was a way to switch to disposable to sell more product cheapr. Its all about money simply if a drill will last a lifetime you only buy one.

[chuck123wapati]

On 9/1/2020 at 1:48 AM, Spyros said:

If it breaks it means it's more brittle, which means it hasn't been annealed properly after it was hardened (probably intentionally).  Annealing reduces hardness but increases ductility (stretch/bend). For example hand files, they usually don't anneal them because this makes the steel harder, holds an edge better, and a file doesn't need to bend anyway.  But if you drop a file on hard floor once or twice it will likely break.  Knives on the other hand need to be able to bend, so they anneal them.

That's a general observation on heat treatment but the end result (brittle/hard/flexible etc) depends on the type of steel as well.

I would say a woodworking awl needs to have some flexibility, but a leatherworking awl probably doesn't, so in my mind it makes sense not to anneal it and help it hold an edge longer.  But I can also see how this might have caused complaints from users who don't understand this and wanted their broken awl replaced because they dropped it, it broke and they saw this as a sign of bad manufacturing.

I agree with this Making "good" steel is much like baking a cake. different recipes of steel produce different  types of steel but its mostly in the baking how well the recipe turns out. In the case of awls you can easily, due to the small size and exactness needed in annealing and tempering of the blade make one to brittle or to soft from the exact same piece of stock. Hardness also affects how easily the tool can be sharpened, I prefer to have a tool i can sharpen as well as one that wont break when dropped or snap when it gets in a bind for any reason. The difference from old tools and new tools is a matter of quality control of the product. old tools = more hands on, smaller production rate is more quality control. New tool + mass produced less hands on less ability to find mistakes in any one of the many processes that go into making "good" steel.

[Frodo]

Watch this video  pretty good explanation of what happens when you quinch

 

 

[Spyros]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

I have to disagree plastic won over simply from a manufacturing cost savings and profitability. Find any tool you have thrown away or is broken and if there is plastic used its usually the broken part. It was "sold" to the public as better and many believe it because it is all they have known but in reality was a way to switch to disposable to sell more product cheapr. Its all about money simply if a drill will last a lifetime you only buy one.

The broken part on drills is usually the chuck or the planetary gears for me, or the battery goes and it costs almost the same to buy a new skin+battery set.  I go to great lengths to find light drills and usually go 12 volts for that reason.  I would never touch an all metal drill but each to their own I guess, swollen wrists have been very convincing for me as to the merits of plastic.  I love plastic on the handle, casing and battery, I cringe when I see plastic gears though.

To be honest with you unless we're talking about some cast iron machine, or the type of hand tools whose design has been the same forever, I don't really want my tools to last a lifetime.  I had drills 30 years ago, they were crap.  Technology moves on and I want the new features every now and then.

[paloma]

and I can't afford to buy often cheap, so I prefer to put a little more at the beginning and be quiet for a while.

[chuck123wapati]

3 hours ago, Spyros said:

The broken part on drills is usually the chuck or the planetary gears for me, or the battery goes and it costs almost the same to buy a new skin+battery set.  I go to great lengths to find light drills and usually go 12 volts for that reason.  I would never touch an all metal drill but each to their own I guess, swollen wrists have been very convincing for me as to the merits of plastic.  I love plastic on the handle, casing and battery, I cringe when I see plastic gears though.

To be honest with you unless we're talking about some cast iron machine, or the type of hand tools whose design has been the same forever, I don't really want my tools to last a lifetime.  I had drills 30 years ago, they were crap.  Technology moves on and I want the new features every now and then.

The drill was only an example in a more complex thought.

[Frodo]

Just because it is old does not mean it is a good product,   30 years ago they made good drills and they made crap drills

You can not say everything that is old is better ,  It all boils down to what did you buy 30 years go? did you cheap out or buy top of the line?

But I will say this.  Metal gears in equipment instead of plastic gears is a MUCH better quality product.

I have 2   timberwolf 1/2'' angle drills    the older one is still a badass and the yellow POS has been in the shop 3 times  STRIPED GEARS

This is NOT a picture hanging drill,  this will hurt you