Newbie query on lining billfold and making ID pocket

[Hardrada]

Not trying to hijack your thread, but this is the problem I'm facing now: the client wants this one replicated:

 

You can see it has an ID compartment with plastic cover too:

 

That ID window is a better model for you than my poor attempt I posted above: see how there's more leather towards the inside. That's made of two layers of leather only, so there's confirmation for you: use only two layers.

The leather in that wallet is >1 mm thick, but they kinda "cheated" when making it too: all the liners and some dividers are thin fabric, not leather:

 

Once folded and closed, it's a brick:

Edited November 27, 2020 by Hardrada

[Danne]

3 minutes ago, Hardrada said:

Going back to your (our) wallet(s):

I use scrap (belly) veg tan to make a test run when tackling a project I haven't made before. Here I cut some panels for the wallet I'll eventually, God willing, make out of chevre (or maybe I'll make as @Danne and use different leather for the outer cover and the chevre for the inside panels—still thinking about it...):

 

That's 3 oz, like yours:

 

Once you put two layers together and a liner it goes over 8 oz (double that once you fold it):

 

Once you add the inner panels, it goes to ~13 oz! Again, double that once folded...

My exterior is 2.5oz, and card pockets slightly under 2.5oz. Also keep in mind that my card holder (I think you are referring to my last brown card holder) is skived, both the exterior lining is skived under card sections, and the top layer of the card sections are skived at the exterior edges, and also some skiving on the card pockets (outside of the stitching) so my edge thickness is around 2mm. If I would make the same card holder with veg tan interior the edges would be slightly thicker because I wouldn't skive the card pockets because from my experience they risk breaking the stitch that overlap the edge instead of stretching a little bit like chevre does. 

In my opinion you need thinner leather to be able to line your wallets. (An option if you choose not to line them, is to burnish the flesh side with tokonole) Also when/if you start to line your wallets you will either have to glue your folded parts in a curve or you will get a lot of "creases" where the wallets folds. So I would recommend you playing around with small test pieces that you fold to see how it looks. How much it creases depends on the type of leather and the leather weights used, and of course how tight the fold is.

Ps. I'm a self taught hobbyist, and this is based on what i've learned from wallets i've made earlier and have been used for 2-3 years by friends and myself. 

[PhilDimashq]

@Hardrada

Hi and thanks again.

You're not hijacking the thread - far from it. I really appreciate you taking the time to share.

I think my brother's wallet is pretty similar - they also "cheated" using fabric inside the card pockets etc.

(he's not getting that zipper pocket by the way - that's just going too far !)

 

Your photos with the vernier calipers really makes it clear how everything quickly adds up.. our wallets do end up turning into a hamburger (or a brick) pretty quickly !!

I never thought of actually building a test wallet, which is a brilliant bit of advice.

As I'm pretty new to this, I was approaching each project with the view that I should be producing a finished item.

Then I'd adjust my patterns based on the result (the Mark I as I call them) so the next one would be an improvement.

I had been buying smallish pieces and so was a bit "precious" about wasting leather.

However, I bought what I think was a reasonably priced side a couple of weeks ago - €90 for 22 sqr feet.

Now I've plenty to play with so I'll follow your example and make a prototype just to see what's what. I'll use the approach you recommended for the ID pocket too.

Whatever way it turns out, it'll be valuable practice and a learning experience,

In the long run, when I feel I'm getting reasonably good, I would love to try chevre and the nicer leathers such as those from baladassi.

But for the moment, I need to keep building up my skills before I can inflict myself on the high end materials  !!! 

I'm still waiting on the acetate for the pocket (aliexpress - could be a long wait) but when I have the wallet done I'll post it on the forum.

Thanks once again, really appreciate the help and advice,

all the best,

Phil

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by PhilDimashq

[PhilDimashq]

@Danne

Hi Danne,

I've seen some of your work on here and love your attention to detail, really outstanding.

I recently found a tutorial of yours where you showed how you skive  pockets and I've just started trying to use that method.

In particular, I really like how you skive the bottom of the "arms" of the T.. when I saw that I immediately had a lightbulb moment.. think it's the solution for something that's been bugging me.

Last project I finally clicked that the arms of my T should be measured for the SPI I'm using in order to line the irons up all the way.

Big improvement but I could still see the T in the finished item i.e. the bottom of the arms was a visible line between each pocket.

 I'm doing a vertical card wallet this weekend and this time I've made the "arms" about 2 mm longer than I want. Then I've skived that 2 mm on the bottom of the T arms, and I'm overlapping each pocket by 2mm.

It's glueing at the moment but looking promising and I've no visible gaps.

Also this time have added about 2mm all round to my pattern and colour coded it - saw you doing this and really liked the idea.

This should give me a decent trim allowance which had been something I was failing to do.

 

In terms of my current project, I think the consensus is that the materials I have are too thick, but now I've a bit of leather to play with I'll make a prototype anyway.

At the very least, it'll be some much needed sewing practise and will allow me to test the pattern and then make adjustments.

I'll do some test pieces with the lining but I'd say gluing while curved will work, thanks for the tip. 

Given the issue with thickness, I'll burnish one side (great tip, thanks also) and line the visible side.

It probably will be a phone book when finished so the next project could be making bigger pockets for my brother's jeans 

 

In terms of chevre, I've visited the alran website and there's a wide range available (oxford, caprino, chevranil etc.)

I've no idea what I'm looking for so any advice on this would be great.

 

Thanks once again for taking the time to comment and share your knowledge,

All the best,

Phil

 

 

[Danne]

37 minutes ago, PhilDimashq said:

@Danne

Hi Danne,

I've seen some of your work on here and love your attention to detail, really outstanding.

I recently found a tutorial of yours where you showed how you skive  pockets and I've just started trying to use that method.

In particular, I really like how you skive the bottom of the "arms" of the T.. when I saw that I immediately had a lightbulb moment.. think it's the solution for something that's been bugging me.

Last project I finally clicked that the arms of my T should be measured for the SPI I'm using in order to line the irons up all the way.

Big improvement but I could still see the T in the finished item i.e. the bottom of the arms was a visible line between each pocket.

 I'm doing a vertical card wallet this weekend and this time I've made the "arms" about 2 mm longer than I want. Then I've skived that 2 mm on the bottom of the T arms, and I'm overlapping each pocket by 2mm.

It's glueing at the moment but looking promising and I've no visible gaps.

Also this time have added about 2mm all round to my pattern and colour coded it - saw you doing this and really liked the idea.

This should give me a decent trim allowance which had been something I was failing to do.

 

In terms of my current project, I think the consensus is that the materials I have are too thick, but now I've a bit of leather to play with I'll make a prototype anyway.

At the very least, it'll be some much needed sewing practise and will allow me to test the pattern and then make adjustments.

I'll do some test pieces with the lining but I'd say gluing while curved will work, thanks for the tip. 

Given the issue with thickness, I'll burnish one side (great tip, thanks also) and line the visible side.

It probably will be a phone book when finished so the next project could be making bigger pockets for my brother's jeans 

 

In terms of chevre, I've visited the alran website and there's a wide range available (oxford, caprino, chevranil etc.)

I've no idea what I'm looking for so any advice on this would be great.

 

Thanks once again for taking the time to comment and share your knowledge,

All the best,

Phil

 

 

You wrote "this time I've made the "arms" about 2 mm longer than I want. Then I've skived that 2 mm on the bottom of the T arms, and I'm overlapping each pocket by 2mm." I usually overlap the "ears" around 3-4mm, then the overlap get a "flatter" angle. And if I overlap 3mm, I start skiving the pocket ear 4mm from the edge. And before I rough and glue the pocket in place I use a distance piece (Glued to thicker card paper) and shape the overlapping area with a bone folder (pushing it down a little bit) 

The most common used product from Alran is Chevre sully (I don't think it's on the website) and the second most popular is Liege Main.

The weight of Sully is around 1.2-1.3mm and it can be worth buying from somewhere where you can get splitting. https://www.rmleathersupply.com/ have splitting, but since you live in Ireland, maybe you should have a look in Uk (I don't think there are any import duties yet) MarcusGear have Lowick goat, and also Perlinger Noblessa (But Noblessa hides are quite large) If you ask him I think he can split it (At least I know he have splitting service for some products) Or you can use leatherthinning.co.uk.

https://www.marcusgear.co.uk/leather-goods/

Also keep in mind when you are buying directly from tanneries (MarcusGear is not a tannery) I would recommend you to buy a little bit more, most tanneries wont appreciate you buying one skin. I also send you a dm about some alternatives.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Danne

[MsEdna]

On 11/26/2020 at 2:36 PM, PhilDimashq said:

@Rahere thank you very much for your constructive comment.

I've read great things about roo hide, but can't get any where I am at a reasonable price.

There's going to be an ID pocket located as per my drawing because that's what my brother has asked me for.

It would be so much easier to leave it out but I'm going to try my best to do what he wants. If anything, it will be another learning experience as every project is.

I've just got veg tan, and it's about 1.2mm thick.

If I had lighter leather, I'd take two pieces and cut out a window in each, then sandwich the plastic in between, sew around the window and that would become the front of the pocket. This would be sewn onto a back piece, making the pocket.

However, when assembled like this the pocket alone will then be 3 layers and approx 3.6 mm which will be very thick.

I don't think this will work and this is why I was asking for advice on the ID pocket. 

Still very new to this, and the wallet shown in my post is only my eight project and first attempt at a billfold.

I have done my research, looked at lots of videos and spent hours looking at other people's work but sometimes you just don't find the answers.

So I dropped my question in here hoping for some guidance.

I'm also unsure whether to line both sides of the cash/bills pocket and the techniques for doing so.

I've seen loads of examples of finished pieces but not much "how to" so any guidance on the pros/cons of doing this and/or techniques would be greatly appreciated.

All the best and thanks once again,

Phil

 

 

it's probably a bit late, but you can get leather in any thickness from https://www.aacrack.co.uk . Thing is, you need to buy at least 3 hides in order for them to skive them (all need to be the same thickness. It will cost you a bit extra but is still cheaper than ordering from the US. I have not used their services yet, just to let you know.

what I have used is buyleatheronline.com. They will skive veg tan down to 0.8 mm free of charge. I can highly recommend them. 

I wish I would find 0.4 mm somewhere in Europe. Seems to be an impossible task. 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by MsEdna

[jimi]

7 hours ago, MsEdna said:

I wish I would find 0.4 mm somewhere in Europe. Seems to be an impossible task. 

Maybe someone with a bell skiver could get it to 0.4, the individual pieces i mean, not a large hide? I usually thin down my gussets to about that on the skiver. This is how it ends up.

[MsEdna]

4 hours ago, jimi said:

Maybe someone with a bell skiver could get it to 0.4, the individual pieces i mean, not a large hide? I usually thin down my gussets to about that on the skiver. This is how it ends up.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about! I was thinking about getting a bell skiver but was warned that it would leave marks on veg tan. What is your experience? Thank you Jimi for the pics, great folded edges!

[fredk]

13 hours ago, MsEdna said:

I wish I would find 0.4 mm somewhere in Europe. Seems to be an impossible task. 

I don't know if this helps any. I've been getting very thin leathers off this chap. Check out each piece for thickness. I get them and use them as is for lining but with a bit of cleaning down and re-dyeing the colours can be changed

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Other-Leathercraft-Accessories/160670/m.html?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEFSXS%3AMESOI&_ssn=bel-fred&_sop=15

[fredk]

extra. I bought one of these skiver things a couple of years ago. I've never used it. I must get a round tuit. I need to find somewhere to set it up. It cost me all of about £24. It might do the job of skiving the edges?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284202705458?hash=item422bcd2232:g:fSwAAOSwI7ZgbXEJ

[jimi]

10 hours ago, MsEdna said:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about! I was thinking about getting a bell skiver but was warned that it would leave marks on veg tan. What is your experience? Thank you Jimi for the pics, great folded edges!

Thanks MsEdna, Yes you can do it with veg tan and yes it can mark the leather, it is important that all the edges are smooth on the foot to eliminate any possibility of a line or scar. I am looking for a good roller foot, as the cheap ones have not worked well for me, to see if i can get even less marks, but what i get at the moment i can live with it. Even just the pressure of the foot can leave a mark on the veg tanned leather and the sewing machine foot also so it is not the easiest to work with for this reason. The slanted side pockets are skived around the edge, the three slit one also and the bottom corners of the separation then the outside part gets skived all around quite thin for folding, the top having a wider skive as its turns over and comes inside and the rest of the sides cover the outside. Here are some pictures of the ones i have done in horse leather and oiled calf.

These are some of the marks left but are mainly pressure marks from the sewing machine.

This is after 2-3 yrs use, the inside is less exposed so takes longer to darken.

Edited May 1, 2021 by jimi

[jimi]

[jimi]

Mmmm..yeah i should have creased the edges on this one 

I get the impression people think this is skimping or cheating or tricking people into thinking that this is all leather inside......well i would say, one day they will eventually get to this point if they do not want a BRICK in their pocket!! The reason the lining is there is to cut down bulk after the cards are put inside, not to save on leather!!

[RockyAussie]

Exactly

Hey jimi ..just a little tip mate ...warm your corners with a heat gun and lightly give them a little push and roll with a slicker. You will get a nice closed up rounding that way.

 

[jimi]

11 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

Exactly

Hey jimi ..just a little tip mate ...warm your corners with a heat gun and lightly give them a little push and roll with a slicker. You will get a nice closed up rounding that way.

 

Thanks for the tip Brian, much appreciated and great to hear from you again!!

[MsEdna]

10 hours ago, fredk said:

I don't know if this helps any. I've been getting very thin leathers off this chap. Check out each piece for thickness. I get them and use them as is for lining but with a bit of cleaning down and re-dyeing the colours can be changed

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Other-Leathercraft-Accessories/160670/m.html?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEFSXS%3AMESOI&_ssn=bel-fred&_sop=15

 

10 hours ago, fredk said:

extra. I bought one of these skiver things a couple of years ago. I've never used it. I must get a round tuit. I need to find somewhere to set it up. It cost me all of about £24. It might do the job of skiving the edges?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284202705458?hash=item422bcd2232:g:fSwAAOSwI7ZgbXEJ

Thanks for the links. My main problem is to get the leather I want skived down. There is no service here for that. The little skiving machine will, unfortunately, not do the job for me. I tried once with a friend's machine. Since I use 0.8mm leather, it is already thin and stretches when pulled through it. Looks like I'm stuck to the skiving knife for now

 

[MsEdna]

1 hour ago, jimi said:

Thanks MsEdna, Yes you can do it with veg tan and yes it can mark the leather, it is important that all the edges are smooth on the foot to eliminate any possibility of a line or scar. I am looking for a good roller foot, as the cheap ones have not worked well for me, to see if i can get even less marks, but what i get at the moment i can live with it. Even just the pressure of the foot can leave a mark on the veg tanned leather and the sewing machine foot also so it is not the easiest to work with for this reason. The slanted side pockets are skived around the edge, the three slit one also and the bottom corners of the separation then the outside part gets skived all around quite thin for folding, the top having a wider skive as its turns over and comes inside and the rest of the sides cover the outside. Here are some pictures of the ones i have done in horse leather and oiled calf.

These are some of the marks left but are mainly pressure marks from the sewing machine.

This is after 2-3 yrs use, the inside is less exposed so takes longer to darken.

Thank you for the pictures. I guess, I will go for a bell skiver in the next few months. Just no idea what to get an no opportunity to try one out near me. It's either going to be a real cheap one or the new compact one Fortuna will come out with in a couple of months.

Beautiful patina, by the way!

[jimi]

Thanks MsEdna, Yes i love the way it looks too after a while.

You can get them at a reasonable price second hand here in Spain if you look around.... from 350 upwards but you never know what condition it is in so it could be a gamble unless you buy from a dealer and that would be 800 upwards probably?? I was lucky and got one for 400 and only needed a few new parts on it changed, the small arm for the feed roller had the pins worn away and the holes for them and the small roller shaft i replaced also. So they are things to take into consideration if you buy second hand, i was not able to see it working before buying so i took a risk.

 

[MsEdna]

On 5/1/2021 at 2:18 PM, jimi said:

Thanks MsEdna, Yes i love the way it looks too after a while.

You can get them at a reasonable price second hand here in Spain if you look around.... from 350 upwards but you never know what condition it is in so it could be a gamble unless you buy from a dealer and that would be 800 upwards probably?? I was lucky and got one for 400 and only needed a few new parts on it changed, the small arm for the feed roller had the pins worn away and the holes for them and the small roller shaft i replaced also. So they are things to take into consideration if you buy second hand, i was not able to see it working before buying so i took a risk.

 

Yeah, here in Switzerland you can forget to find something at a reasonable price. And should you get lucky, it's going to be an old machine that needs fixing and runs on 380 V. Can't run it in my flat