Dog collars - always worked flat?

[Klara]

I have watched a few of JHHall's videos and she makes padded dog collars  on a flat surface and it works. Whereas when I hold two pieces of leather together while lying flat and then bend them into a cylinder, the inner piece is too long, which I find perfectly logical. So I wonder whether it would be better to glue the pieces together while bent and punch the holes (still missing an awl for true saddle stitch) while the collar is resting on half of a piece of round wood. Does anybody do it that way? 

[mike02130]

When making handbag handles an wallets and watch bands I use a form to bend and glue.  A dog collar has a larger radius, I wouldn't bother with the form.  The only way you'll know is to do it.

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, Klara said:

I have watched a few of JHHall's videos and she makes padded dog collars  on a flat surface and it works. Whereas when I hold two pieces of leather together while lying flat and then bend them into a cylinder, the inner piece is too long, which I find perfectly logical. So I wonder whether it would be better to glue the pieces together while bent and punch the holes (still missing an awl for true saddle stitch) while the collar is resting on half of a piece of round wood. Does anybody do it that way? 

once you glue them together they become one piece of leather so they don't separate. make them flat it will work fine. 

[Klara]

I have worked the last ones flat, and it's definitely a lot easier - but I'm not happy with the result. Next I'll try thinner padding and another leather to see whether that changes anything.

[garypl]

The thicker the leather the more wrinkling you will have when bending it into a circle if you glue them up on a flat surface.  If the item is being made to stay in a circle, I would glue the pieces on a form or just do it by hand starting at one end and keeping the pieces curved.   

[Klara]

That was my thinking as well, hence my original question. But the video from JH Leather shows a collar with 6 mm padding being worked flat and I figured I should for once follow the pro's advice...

I already have prepared half a piece of fencepost to use as form...

[fredk]

I don't know if this will influence your thinking;

When I used to make the occasional archery arm bracer for my medieval display team I got a 2L cola bottle and cut the top off, then I filled it with plaster to make a form.

Mostly the bracers I made were lined with thick suede, about 2 - 2.5mm thick. A bracer only needed to be about 2/3 round the bottle form but I wrapped the suede all the way round. I used double-sided adhesive tape to hold an over-size piece of suede to the bottle, then I glued on the padding, if requested, then glued the outer leather over that. With good contact adhesive it was all glued up in minutes, no need for clamping.

Whilst the bracer was still on the bottle I ran a gouge along the edges, about 3mm or 4mm in, for a sewing line then I used a scratch awl to mark my sewing points. These marks were quite deep, almost all the way through. Then I took the bracer off the form and sewed it all up. When that was done I trimmed the suede and finished off the edges.

Most of my bracers were held to the arm by lacing so the holes for this lacing was punched towards the finish. If buckle straps were requested they were prepared and glued in place at the time of gluing on the padding

[fivewayswelshcobs]

I always work flat but usually trim the padding to length at the end of stitching, ie before stitching over the end. Keeps the padding flatter rather than forcing it to be the same length. It still lies flat but much less wrinkled.

[Klara]

36 minutes ago, fivewayswelshcobs said:

I always work flat but usually trim the padding to length at the end of stitching, ie before stitching over the end. Keeps the padding flatter rather than forcing it to be the same length. It still lies flat but much less wrinkled.

I'm sorry,  I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean you bend the collar before trimming the ends? Because otherwise I don't see the difference. I did trim and skive the end of the padding and the leather around it, but there is several centimeters of difference between outside and inside circumference... The first collar, same size as the previous, mostly unpadded ones, came out 2 inches too small with the padding. 

@fredk I'm seeing myself with a measuring tape in the supermarket, measuring bottles... You managed to get your stitches regular enough marking them "freehand"? 

 

[fredk]

44 minutes ago, Klara said:

I'm seeing myself with a measuring tape in the supermarket, measuring bottles... You managed to get your stitches regular enough marking them "freehand"? 

Fairly even. And with saddle stitching any small difference was covered by the thread. If I was to do these now I would use a wing-divider to mark the spacing.

Plus;  I would go to my local woods and look for a big branch or wood log for my former. (There are NO wood turners left in N.I. !! for me to get a piece of wood turned for a former)

[LeatherLegion]

     I think the padding is way to thick. With or without the top strap attached , a padding that thick will wrinkle regardless , when bent into a circle . If I am making a collar using two ply , I am always  gluing them together around a form. My padding is not nearly as thick of yours and I still get a bit of wrinkles . 

I am using different size PVC pipes as forms ... helps  me with collar sizing too . 

Edited April 22, 2021 by LeatherLegion
added text

[Klara]

The 6 mm padding is also according to JH Leather. For once I tried to folliw instructions... But I agree, I'll try 4 mm next.

@LeatherLegion Your collars are beautiful! The day I get edges like that I'll jump with joy!

 

[toxo]

The laws of physics say that if you fix two layers in the flat position and then bend them the inside layer will contract and the outside layer will expand. You have to glue/sew it in the curved position, either on a cylinder arm machine or if by hand on an appropriate shaped form. It will never lie flat after this. This should apply no matter what thickness the layers.

[Klara]

 

51 minutes ago, toxo said:

The laws of physics say that if you fix two layers in the flat position and then bend them the inside layer will contract and the outside layer will expand. ...

Exactly. Which is why I was surprised by the pro's work and asked the question in the first place.

But I suppose the explanation is that most dog collars are stored and sold flat. The wrinkles only form once on the dog and then they are invisibly on the inside... But martingale collars - the only type I am currently interested in - are always round anyway. At least until I find a way of adding a buckle without removin comfort or looks...

[Samalan]

4 hours ago, Klara said:

 

Exactly. Which is why I was surprised by the pro's work and asked the question in the first place.

But I suppose the explanation is that most dog collars are stored and sold flat. The wrinkles only form once on the dog and then they are invisibly on the inside... But martingale collars - the only type I am currently interested in - are always round anyway. At least until I find a way of adding a buckle without removin comfort or looks...

I always glue up in the round but then I use a cylinder bed machine barge cement when dry enough you can use a piece of parchment paper so as not to miss stick pulling it out as you go along just leave the liner long and wide cut it of after works good for me.

[Klara]

Are you talking about machine sewing? Not my problem I did glue my latest collar (not sewn yet) in the round, but I had marked the stitches flat beforehand. I think that should work. If I had the right thread...

[LeatherLegion]

17 hours ago, Klara said:

The 6 mm padding is also according to JH Leather. For once I tried to folliw instructions... But I agree, I'll try 4 mm next.

 

       When you say padding , is that some kind of  foam inside your soft leather ? I am only  using  3-4 oz soft leather for my "padding" nothing stuffed inside  ...it is more for aesthetics  . If needed , the softer rolled edges are more than enough protection in my opinion 

[benlilly1]

I sewed all of these collars flat. I used JH Leather video for directions. I used 1/8th inch closed cell foam inside the padding leather and hand sewed it. I haven't had a problem with not sewing with it curved.

[Klara]

4 hours ago, benlilly1 said:

I sewed all of these collars flat. I used JH Leather video for directions. I used 1/8th inch closed cell foam inside the padding leather and hand sewed it. I haven't had a problem with not sewing with it curved.

Well, what does it look like on the inside when it is bent as around a dog's neck? While lying flat it looks good, see the laws of physics quoted above (isn't it rather geometry?)

 

6 hours ago, LeatherLegion said:

       When you say padding , is that some kind of  foam inside your soft leather ? I am only  using  3-4 oz soft leather for my "padding" nothing stuffed inside  ...it is more for aesthetics  . If needed , the softer rolled edges are more than enough protection in my opinion 

Yes, I put foam inside the inner red leather as per instructions (and safety belt from a car wreck in the outer layer for solidity, my idea).

I have wondered about the necessity of padding, but for the moment I'm experimenting and learning, sometimes following instructions, sometimes not. Then I try the collars on my dog and we see what we like.

I think padding becomes most useful with rivets etc on the outer layer. Very soon I'll try a collar without any sort of padding, just to see what Rika thinks.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Klara

[Samalan]

5 hours ago, Klara said:

Well, what does it look like on the inside when it is bent as around a dog's neck? While lying flat it looks good, see the laws of physics quoted above (isn't it rather geometry?)

 

Yes, I put foam inside the inner red leather as per instructions (and safety belt from a car wreck in the outer layer for solidity, my idea).

I have wondered about the necessity of padding, but for the moment I'm experimenting and learning, sometimes following instructions, sometimes not. Then I try the collars on my dog and we see what we like.

I think padding becomes most useful with rivets etc on the outer layer. Very soon I'll try a collar without any sort of padding, just to see what Rika thinks.

I really don't think the dog would feel the wrinkles in a collar, it's kind of like the princess and the pea.

[Klara]

1 hour ago, Samalan said:

I really don't think the dog would feel the wrinkles in a collar, it's kind of like the princess and the pea.

That is a perfect description of Rika du Castel d'Enfer! 

But mainly I don't like the look of the wrinkles. 

[Samalan]

4 hours ago, Klara said:

That is a perfect description of Rika du Castel d'Enfer! 

But mainly I don't like the look of the wrinkles. 

lol Not sure what that means but I don't like the wrinkles either.

[Samalan]

4 hours ago, Klara said:

That is a perfect description of Rika du Castel d'Enfer! 

But mainly I don't like the look of the wrinkles. 

One thing Klara gluing in the round can cause the opposite reaction on the out side if you flatten it out or open it up to much so don't make it to tight it can cause compression on the outside good luck would like to see pics when it's done.

[Samalan]

13 minutes ago, Samalan said:

lol Not sure what that means but I don't like the wrinkles either.

OK  the Rika du castel d' enfer is a very fussy breed lol.

[benlilly1]

12 hours ago, Klara said:

Well, what does it look like on the inside when it is bent as around a dog's neck? While lying flat it looks good, see the laws of physics quoted above (isn't it rather geometry?)

 

Yes, I put foam inside the inner red leather as per instructions (and safety belt from a car wreck in the outer layer for solidity, my idea).

I have wondered about the necessity of padding, but for the moment I'm experimenting and learning, sometimes following instructions, sometimes not. Then I try the collars on my dog and we see what we like.

I think padding becomes most useful with rivets etc on the outer layer. Very soon I'll try a collar without any sort of padding, just to see what Rika thinks.

This is a 1" vegtan collar and I used Bison for the padding.  Not a concern for me, no one has complained of wrinkles.