First industrial sewing machine

[Kawakneurder]

Hello everyone!

After recently getting into the hobby of making bags and other rugged gear, and enjoying it, I thought I would upgrade from my trusty old vintage Bernina 742 to something more serious. Most of the stuff I make uses thick webbing/seat belt material, 1000D cordura and other heavy stuff. I am planning to use waxed canvas in the future as well. Now actually I dont encounter *that* many problems in terms of power, as when I do I can just manually cycle the machine. I have however encountered issues with layers shifting etc, and transitions from thin to thick material. Now of course the obvious solution is a walking foot sewing machine.

Personally I don't have that much experience about industrial sewing machines (although I have read up about the basics). I found this forum after some searching on the internet, and it seems to be by far the place with most information about industrial sewing machines. Thus the post here.

Currently I have my eye on 3 options:

1. A Dürkopp 239 (with clutch motor) from a dealer, for 650 euro
2. An Adler 167 372 (with clutch motor) mounted on an old singer table for 600
3. An Adler 167 with stepper motor mounted on a new table for 800 from a dealer

Now it seems that the Adler 167 is a fairly common, and pretty highly regarded machine. I however could find a lot less info about the Dürkopp. The obvious advantage of machine 3 is that it has a stepper motor, although as I am fairly technically inclined, purchasing and mounting a stepper motor myself is not really an issue (seems the price hovers around the 200 euro for a reasonable stepper motor).

Does any of you have experience with these machines, and which choice would you make if you had to?

Thanks a bunch in advance!

- Kawakneurder


Here as some images of the machines:

1:



2:



3:

[Constabulary]

I´d go with #3. Though I like the Durkopps very much cause they share a lot of parts with Singer 111 machines so presser feet sets are available fairly cheap.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Constabulary

[dikman]

#3 looks to be a pretty clean machine, nicely set up and with a servo (something you would have to allow for on the other machines).

[Kawakneurder]

Thank you guys for your response!

Actually after some further talk with the possible sellers, number 1 didn't seem very reliable, and number 2 was not able to ship the item at all.

Additionally, I have found a DA 267 (A german made one) in much better condition than any of the above, with a little extra able to be fitted with a servo. So I think I might go for that one. I will update when I purchase/receive the machine!

Edited July 4, 2021 by Kawakneurder
Addition of image

[Kawakneurder]

As a small update, in the end I did get the DA 267.

After a deep clean, and oiling every moving part and replacing the grease, the machine itself makes no sound at all. Only strange thing is that it came with 135x17 needles instead of the recommended 134-35 (DPx35). The only difference seems to be the length to the needle eye, and the needle bar seems to be adjusted to these needles. I have ordered some proper needles though, as it is probably better to use 'in spec' recommended needles.

There is just one issue, and that is the servo motor it came with. It is a 'Kraft' branded motor (apparently a polish company), specifically the KF-550W.

I cannot find any information about someone using these, or a manual. To be honest this motor seems to work like hot garbage. The minimum speed they can do is 500 RPM on the motor, and at that setting there is no control on the foot pedal, it is a literal on/off type deal. I could get a smaller pulley, but that still wouldn't give me any control in terms of speed. Probably an okay motor for a high reduction gear sewing machine, or in an industrial setting with lots of straight stitch work, but it offers not the control I want/need.

Looking around I have seen that there is a surprising lack of proper, relatively low cost servo/stepper motors for industrial sewing machines. Especially the controllers seem to be lacking, really makes me want to start up an opensource project to develop an opensource servo/stepper controller...

Regardless, I have found that the Ho Hsing G60-100 is available in my country (NL), and from what I heard other people on this forum have had good experiences with it. Is it able to reach significantly lower speeds, or will I still need the reduction pulley? At 300 euro its not a cheap buy, but if it really does give proper control it is obviously worth it.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Kawakneurder

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, Kawakneurder said:

Only strange thing is that it came with 135x17 needles instead of the recommended 134-35 (DPx35). The only difference seems to be the length to the needle eye, and the needle bar seems to be adjusted to these needles.

I recently mentioned System 134-35 needles vs 135x17 (and 135x16) in another topic. The difference from the top of the mounting shank to the eye is only 0.8mm shorter in 134-35. Some folks and some dealers adjust their timing to use either system and still be in time. This is done by setting the needle bar a little lower with 135x17 so that the hook will arrive higher above the eye so that System 134-35 needles will be just above the eye and pick off the thread loop. On your machine, the dealer raised the needle bar to accommodate the longer needles. You might be able to use either if the hook is higher above the eye than usual.

Why would you use System 134-35? Because they are available in S point from Groz-Beckert and Schmetz. This is an inline leather point needle.

[chrisash]

I brought a speed reducer for £70 a few months ago from the German company at info@sieck.de, that could be the best option plus a 40-45mm pulley on the existing motor

[Kawakneurder]

7 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I recently mentioned System 134-35 needles vs 135x17 (and 135x16) in another topic. The difference from the top of the mounting shank to the eye is only 0.8mm shorter in 134-35. Some folks and some dealers adjust their timing to use either system and still be in time. This is done by setting the needle bar a little lower with 135x17 so that the hook will arrive higher above the eye so that System 134-35 needles will be just above the eye and pick off the thread loop. On your machine, the dealer raised the needle bar to accommodate the longer needles. You might be able to use either if the hook is higher above the eye than usual.

Why would you use System 134-35? Because they are available in S point from Groz-Beckert and Schmetz. This is an inline leather point needle.

So this confirms what I thought. Before actually using the machine I double checked the needle height and the hook point reaches nicely at the middle of the scarf. I have found that needle bar adjustment seems surprisingly easy on this machine, so not a big issue.

Do you know what might be the reason to instead opt for 135x17 needles? Are they more common/cheaper than 134-35?

5 hours ago, chrisash said:

I brought a speed reducer for £70 a few months ago from the German company at info@sieck.de, that could be the best option plus a 40-45mm pulley on the existing motor

I have thought about this too, and I have already ordered a 45mm pulley because they are so very cheap (should reduce the speed by approx 1.7x).

I had a look around, and the cheapest speed reducers I could find were indeed around the 80 euro mark. Considering I might not even solve the issue with this, plus the fact that this motor still makes quite some racket, I think I might still opt for another servo that can reach a lower speed. I have seen numbers quoted of under 100 stitches per minute, so that would already be an improvement of 5x. If I add to that the 45mm pulley it could slow down the stitches by 8.335x which seems very acceptable indeed. Additionally I have thought of maybe getting a needle position sensor, but unsure about this still.

 

Is there anyone on the forum who has had experience with the Ho Hsing servo motors? I have sent some messages to sellers around the area, but have not received any response as of yet.

 

[dikman]

The servo you have looks to be a pretty generic type so if you can find instructions for similar machines it might help? I fitted a "generic" servo to a Singer, small pulley on the motor, large pulley to replace the handwheel and a home-made pulley reducer - I got one stitch every 3 seconds! That is a bit extreme, of course, but shows what can be done. If you want slow speed control a speed reducer is a must, and will be cheaper than a Ho Hsing motor.

[CowboyBob]

Do you know what might be the reason to instead opt for 135x17 needles? Are they more common/cheaper than 134-35? Yes,the 135x17 are easier to get .Another reason to go to a longer needle is with the slight rise of the needlebar will allow you to sew thicker before the needlebar hits the foot.