First industrial sewing machine

[Kawakneurder]

Hello everyone!

After recently getting into the hobby of making bags and other rugged gear, and enjoying it, I thought I would upgrade from my trusty old vintage Bernina 742 to something more serious. Most of the stuff I make uses thick webbing/seat belt material, 1000D cordura and other heavy stuff. I am planning to use waxed canvas in the future as well. Now actually I dont encounter *that* many problems in terms of power, as when I do I can just manually cycle the machine. I have however encountered issues with layers shifting etc, and transitions from thin to thick material. Now of course the obvious solution is a walking foot sewing machine.

Personally I don't have that much experience about industrial sewing machines (although I have read up about the basics). I found this forum after some searching on the internet, and it seems to be by far the place with most information about industrial sewing machines. Thus the post here.

Currently I have my eye on 3 options:

1. A Dürkopp 239 (with clutch motor) from a dealer, for 650 euro
2. An Adler 167 372 (with clutch motor) mounted on an old singer table for 600
3. An Adler 167 with stepper motor mounted on a new table for 800 from a dealer

Now it seems that the Adler 167 is a fairly common, and pretty highly regarded machine. I however could find a lot less info about the Dürkopp. The obvious advantage of machine 3 is that it has a stepper motor, although as I am fairly technically inclined, purchasing and mounting a stepper motor myself is not really an issue (seems the price hovers around the 200 euro for a reasonable stepper motor).

Does any of you have experience with these machines, and which choice would you make if you had to?

Thanks a bunch in advance!

- Kawakneurder


Here as some images of the machines:

1:



2:



3:

[Constabulary]

I´d go with #3. Though I like the Durkopps very much cause they share a lot of parts with Singer 111 machines so presser feet sets are available fairly cheap.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Constabulary

[dikman]

#3 looks to be a pretty clean machine, nicely set up and with a servo (something you would have to allow for on the other machines).

[Kawakneurder]

Thank you guys for your response!

Actually after some further talk with the possible sellers, number 1 didn't seem very reliable, and number 2 was not able to ship the item at all.

Additionally, I have found a DA 267 (A german made one) in much better condition than any of the above, with a little extra able to be fitted with a servo. So I think I might go for that one. I will update when I purchase/receive the machine!

Edited July 4, 2021 by Kawakneurder
Addition of image

[Kawakneurder]

As a small update, in the end I did get the DA 267.

After a deep clean, and oiling every moving part and replacing the grease, the machine itself makes no sound at all. Only strange thing is that it came with 135x17 needles instead of the recommended 134-35 (DPx35). The only difference seems to be the length to the needle eye, and the needle bar seems to be adjusted to these needles. I have ordered some proper needles though, as it is probably better to use 'in spec' recommended needles.

There is just one issue, and that is the servo motor it came with. It is a 'Kraft' branded motor (apparently a polish company), specifically the KF-550W.

I cannot find any information about someone using these, or a manual. To be honest this motor seems to work like hot garbage. The minimum speed they can do is 500 RPM on the motor, and at that setting there is no control on the foot pedal, it is a literal on/off type deal. I could get a smaller pulley, but that still wouldn't give me any control in terms of speed. Probably an okay motor for a high reduction gear sewing machine, or in an industrial setting with lots of straight stitch work, but it offers not the control I want/need.

Looking around I have seen that there is a surprising lack of proper, relatively low cost servo/stepper motors for industrial sewing machines. Especially the controllers seem to be lacking, really makes me want to start up an opensource project to develop an opensource servo/stepper controller...

Regardless, I have found that the Ho Hsing G60-100 is available in my country (NL), and from what I heard other people on this forum have had good experiences with it. Is it able to reach significantly lower speeds, or will I still need the reduction pulley? At 300 euro its not a cheap buy, but if it really does give proper control it is obviously worth it.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Kawakneurder

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, Kawakneurder said:

Only strange thing is that it came with 135x17 needles instead of the recommended 134-35 (DPx35). The only difference seems to be the length to the needle eye, and the needle bar seems to be adjusted to these needles.

I recently mentioned System 134-35 needles vs 135x17 (and 135x16) in another topic. The difference from the top of the mounting shank to the eye is only 0.8mm shorter in 134-35. Some folks and some dealers adjust their timing to use either system and still be in time. This is done by setting the needle bar a little lower with 135x17 so that the hook will arrive higher above the eye so that System 134-35 needles will be just above the eye and pick off the thread loop. On your machine, the dealer raised the needle bar to accommodate the longer needles. You might be able to use either if the hook is higher above the eye than usual.

Why would you use System 134-35? Because they are available in S point from Groz-Beckert and Schmetz. This is an inline leather point needle.

[chrisash]

I brought a speed reducer for £70 a few months ago from the German company at info@sieck.de, that could be the best option plus a 40-45mm pulley on the existing motor

[Kawakneurder]

7 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I recently mentioned System 134-35 needles vs 135x17 (and 135x16) in another topic. The difference from the top of the mounting shank to the eye is only 0.8mm shorter in 134-35. Some folks and some dealers adjust their timing to use either system and still be in time. This is done by setting the needle bar a little lower with 135x17 so that the hook will arrive higher above the eye so that System 134-35 needles will be just above the eye and pick off the thread loop. On your machine, the dealer raised the needle bar to accommodate the longer needles. You might be able to use either if the hook is higher above the eye than usual.

Why would you use System 134-35? Because they are available in S point from Groz-Beckert and Schmetz. This is an inline leather point needle.

So this confirms what I thought. Before actually using the machine I double checked the needle height and the hook point reaches nicely at the middle of the scarf. I have found that needle bar adjustment seems surprisingly easy on this machine, so not a big issue.

Do you know what might be the reason to instead opt for 135x17 needles? Are they more common/cheaper than 134-35?

5 hours ago, chrisash said:

I brought a speed reducer for £70 a few months ago from the German company at info@sieck.de, that could be the best option plus a 40-45mm pulley on the existing motor

I have thought about this too, and I have already ordered a 45mm pulley because they are so very cheap (should reduce the speed by approx 1.7x).

I had a look around, and the cheapest speed reducers I could find were indeed around the 80 euro mark. Considering I might not even solve the issue with this, plus the fact that this motor still makes quite some racket, I think I might still opt for another servo that can reach a lower speed. I have seen numbers quoted of under 100 stitches per minute, so that would already be an improvement of 5x. If I add to that the 45mm pulley it could slow down the stitches by 8.335x which seems very acceptable indeed. Additionally I have thought of maybe getting a needle position sensor, but unsure about this still.

 

Is there anyone on the forum who has had experience with the Ho Hsing servo motors? I have sent some messages to sellers around the area, but have not received any response as of yet.

 

[dikman]

The servo you have looks to be a pretty generic type so if you can find instructions for similar machines it might help? I fitted a "generic" servo to a Singer, small pulley on the motor, large pulley to replace the handwheel and a home-made pulley reducer - I got one stitch every 3 seconds! That is a bit extreme, of course, but shows what can be done. If you want slow speed control a speed reducer is a must, and will be cheaper than a Ho Hsing motor.

[CowboyBob]

Do you know what might be the reason to instead opt for 135x17 needles? Are they more common/cheaper than 134-35? Yes,the 135x17 are easier to get .Another reason to go to a longer needle is with the slight rise of the needlebar will allow you to sew thicker before the needlebar hits the foot.

[Kawakneurder]

17 hours ago, dikman said:

The servo you have looks to be a pretty generic type so if you can find instructions for similar machines it might help? I fitted a "generic" servo to a Singer, small pulley on the motor, large pulley to replace the handwheel and a home-made pulley reducer - I got one stitch every 3 seconds! That is a bit extreme, of course, but shows what can be done. If you want slow speed control a speed reducer is a must, and will be cheaper than a Ho Hsing motor.

Hmm yeah I think I should reconsider a different servo. The noise this one makes might be annoying, but its not as bad as a 200 euro extra investment

First I am gonna wait for the smaller pulley, see if that helps a bit, and if its not sufficient I might try to find a speed reducer somewhere.

7 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

Do you know what might be the reason to instead opt for 135x17 needles? Are they more common/cheaper than 134-35? Yes,the 135x17 are easier to get .Another reason to go to a longer needle is with the slight rise of the needlebar will allow you to sew thicker before the needlebar hits the foot.

That actually makes a lot of sense, thanks for the heads up. Although I don't plan on sewing super thick materials, I guess the only advantage for me would be they are easier to find.

 

 

Sadly I have ran into some other issues with the machine though. I started a first project with the machine today, and after finishing a bobbin I wanted to wind a new one. To do this, I put the machine in the highest speed (4500rpm) but I noticed it couldn't even reach 1000 RPM. It also sounded like it was struggling and not very smooth, and the motor was very hot. Turning the handwheel confirmed what i suspected, and that is an extreme increase in friction. Normally if you  would turn the handwheel without motor belt attached, it should keep spinning a bit right? It does not at all, and is actually hard to turn. I detached the pulley that connects the upper assembly shaft to the lower assembly (sorry, don't know the proper terminology) and it still felt similar. I also detached the hand crank wheel/pulley, to see if that was the issue, and it is not. Also the bearing on that end spins smoothly.

This at least isolates the issue to somewhere in the upper part of the machine where there is a significant increase in friction. Are there any components with these 267s that are known to cause increased friction with time?

Edit: I have found that actually nowhere in the cycle does the machine release the tension on the thread (which I already noticed during sewing, but thought this was somewhat normal). I have cleaned the tension assembly, and that seems to work well, and is actuated through a rod that goes to the backside of the machine. Maybe this is related to this issue. I am still analyzing the parts list to figure out how this works. (Parts list can be found here if you want to brainstorm together with me).

Never mind the above, when lifting the foot it does depress the shaft, it just doesn't depress it deeply enough to fully release the tension it seems.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Kawakneurder

[Kawakneurder]

A little update, I have found the part that caused the hang! There is a cam system that moves the middle foot (I believe it is called the 'feeding foot', with the outside being the 'presser foot'). This cam system has apparently 4 points of adjustment:

1. Position of a cam attached to the mainshaft
2. fixation of a cam on the rear
3. Bolt 1 on a small rear axle, on the side of the cam to the main shaft
4. Bolt 2 on the rear axle, closer to the head

The above pictures are obviously from a few different angles to show all the parts (labeled).

The cam bolt in place 2 has a built in bearing, which was stuck. After taping it out, cleaning it with MEK, relubricating with oil and putting it back it seems very smooth.

Secondly, the cam mechanism of 1 also was stuck, and I figured that out by touch after running it a bit . The friction managed to make it upwards of 70 degrees according to my infrared thermo. I managed to pry the two pieces of the cam apart, I tried my best to clean them, but it is a bit annoying to do as you cannot get them off the axle without taking apart the entire machine. However, even after some cleaning they are still binding up. Is it screwed? I thought it shouldn't be *too* damaged, as there are no heat marks on it, although I had been sewing with it for a while. Also it does have some wear marks. But you'd imagine, the more things wear the looser the tolerances get. Anyone have some ideas? I thought maybe using some very high grid wet sand paper (2000 grid or so) to smooth out any superficial damage on there, but i am afraid of damaging the oil seal it has.

 

What is left after that, is figure out how each of these bolts affect the timing/height of the feeding foot and what the adjustment procedure is. I have found a Service manual and I am currently digging through this, but if someone knows how to do this, or has a better resource, advice is always welcome.

So far, I have found this older manual which details the timing procedure for cam 1. Somewhere else on the forum I have read that generally 2 sets the height of the presser feet, and most people leave it in the upmost position. It is a bit vague on how to adjust 3 and 4 though.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Kawakneurder
More info on adjusting timing/raising of feet

[Gymnast]

I am sorry to see these marks on one of the inner surfaces of your bearing. It looks like the machine have been used a long time with no lubrication there. If you got this machine from a qualified dealer, I would contact him about this. I think it can be hard to repair. I hope someone in forum might help you evaluating this further.

Regarding the slow speed control of sewing machines, you can find this issue debated in several threads in this forum. This is the latest two I can remember:

 

[Kawakneurder]

Thanks for the reply Gymnast, I appreciate it.

2 minutes ago, Gymnast said:

I am sorry to see these marks on one of the inner surfaces of your bearing. It looks like the machine have been used a long time with no lubrication there. If you got this machine from a qualified dealer, I would contact him about this. I think it can be hard to repair. I hope someone in forum might help you evaluating this further.

That is indeed what I suspected, what a bummer. Luckily I live in a country which has clear laws that dictate that he should either fully refund me, including shipping, or repair it fully at his costs. Of course he seems to be struggling about this, but in the end I hope I can get something satisfactory. Of course he tries to bring up it is second hand, and that maybe I treated it wrong, but I think the machine should have ran for a long time without lubrication for this to happen, and I lubricated the machine before using it when I got it, so seems like it is his responsibility regardless.

Alternatively I suggested to him to refund a (large) part of what I paid him, and let me fix it myself, although I have found that these two parts are pretty hard to find.

 

5 minutes ago, Gymnast said:

Regarding the slow speed control of sewing machines, you can find this issue debated in several threads in this forum. This is the latest two I can remember:

 

Thanks for the references, I will read through them. On a quick skim it does seem that there's two ways of doing it:

• Cheap/shitty servo or clutch motor + Speed reducer + smaller pulley
• Good servo with control to low RPMs

When the problem about the bearing is solved, I will delve further into this, as at least I can use the machine whilst trying to find a solution for more control. There's a good chance he will have to fully refund me and take back the machine, in which case I will look for another machine and ensure it is working flawlessly before purchasing it...

[Gymnast]

I wish your luck in regarding your communication with the seller of the machine.

I have got several vintage sewing machines, but not from dealers. One of the first things I do is to remove the driving belt to the machine or some motor driving it. In this way you can feel how easy the machine turn. I is quite normal, that a machine can be completely stuck or got high frictions. But after lubricating all the right places and operating the machine by hand (there is youtube videos about this) the machine will normally free up and run smoothly. Then I start to use the motor. With your case bearing I would think I had noticed that something was wrong in this process.

[Kawakneurder]

On 7/14/2021 at 3:50 PM, Gymnast said:

One of the first things I do is to remove the driving belt to the machine or some motor driving it. In this way you can feel how easy the machine turn. I is quite normal, that a machine can be completely stuck or got high frictions. ..... Then I start to use the motor. With your case bearing I would think I had noticed that something was wrong in this process.

I think you are definitely correct about this. And it is definitely a test that I will do in the future with other machines. I am sure I would have picked up on it. When disconnecting the bearing it is now very obvious that the machine turns much, much smoother.

Some positive news though, after a (very long and arduous) negotiation with the seller he has agreed to pay back 450 euro, and I will fix the unit myself. I have already ordered the two replacement parts that have been damaged. If I manage to repair it by just replacing these parts, then I have picked the machine up for quite a good price.

[Gymnast]

It is nice to know, that this shaft most likely is the only problem, and you can get spare parts to fix it. Furthermore, It is good, that you could reach an agreement with the seller. Thank you for the update.