You can't afford starting with leathercraft?

[Klara]

Completely with you on the last paragraph, I don't have top of the line power tools either (even supermarket stuff sometimes works well enough for my purposes).

Regarding the leather tools we should distinguish between cheap as in badly made and cheap as in low-cost. I'm sure there's some crap tools somewhere that are just not useable. I had my doubts about the very cheapest creasers on Aliexpress - they looked as if they'd bend if I pushed a bit hard. On the other hand, I don't consider "not holding an edge" a fault in a knife. As long as it's the sort of steel that is sharp again after a few strokes on stone and strop.

I have Vergez Blanchard and Osborne because they sell the blade on its own, so I have several blades but only one handle. The smallest Seiwa was out of stock for a long time, I agree the other two are a bit wide (and I feel VB is too soft - it's the only awl blade where the tip bent over, I believe without falling on the floor). Probably should make another trip to the shop, but they are so bad for my bank account...

However, for beginners I believe the most important thing is to know what they want to do. You could spend your life tooling belts, riveting the buckles (or putting snaps) and you wouldn't need any sewing equipment at all. Whereas I love sewing and need my rivet setter mostly for rhinestones

 

[Danne]

23 minutes ago, Klara said:

Completely with you on the last paragraph, I don't have top of the line power tools either (even supermarket stuff sometimes works well enough for my purposes).

Regarding the leather tools we should distinguish between cheap as in badly made and cheap as in low-cost. I'm sure there's some crap tools somewhere that are just not useable. I had my doubts about the very cheapest creasers on Aliexpress - they looked as if they'd bend if I pushed a bit hard. On the other hand, I don't consider "not holding an edge" a fault in a knife. As long as it's the sort of steel that is sharp again after a few strokes on stone and strop.

I have Vergez Blanchard and Osborne because they sell the blade on its own, so I have several blades but only one handle. The smallest Seiwa was out of stock for a long time, I agree the other two are a bit wide (and I feel VB is too soft - it's the only awl blade where the tip bent over, I believe without falling on the floor). Probably should make another trip to the shop, but they are so bad for my bank account...

However, for beginners I believe the most important thing is to know what they want to do. You could spend your life tooling belts, riveting the buckles (or putting snaps) and you wouldn't need any sewing equipment at all. Whereas I love sewing and need my rivet setter mostly for rhinestones

 

Yes, and regarding skiving knives, we also have to consider how it will be used. As a hobbyist or for some skiving sometimes. If someone skive a lot everyday a good edge retention can be nice. 

The awl I use the most is a Kyoshin Elle I think. And it's modified from diamond to "flat" and it doesn't bend and it stays sharp very well. Now I only use it for thinner leather on wallets and card holders. 

[Squid61]

The point about cheap quality and low cost is good, easier to spot the difference when buying in person versus on line.  In my wood carving I use a selection of Mora knives, an example of decent quality at a low price.  I also  use an Osborne skiving knife that was on the lower end of the price scale but made with quality steel, it took a couple of hours of serious sharpening and honing to get it to skive properly but now holds its edge very well.  On the other hand, I find that a basic $5 USD utility knife works very well for most leather work, the blades do require honing before use but the blades cost mere cents when they finally must be replaced.  Also something you might understand Klara; I had a Harrisville 40" floor loom that combined mediocre quality with relatively high cost, a poor investment on my part.

If a beginner buys tools just because they are low cost there is a significant probability that more time will be spent fighting the tool than learning a craft.  Sure, given a certain level of natural talent, a good product can be produced with low quality tools but I don't feel that represents the normal outcome.  More likely is the beginner quitting in disgust.

[Klara]

13 minutes ago, Squid61 said:

....Also something you might understand Klara; I had a Harrisville 40" floor loom that combined mediocre quality with relatively high cost, a poor investment on my part.

...

OT I understand, but I am shocked: I really thought Harrisville was the very top of the line! Didn't they cooperate with Peter Collingwood on the rug loom? (My Glimakra Ideal isn't ideal either, but I got it for very little money from a friend. 

 

[Squid61]

Harrisville got a lot right with it but it is a kit after all and kits just lack the sense of fine quality that comes with a factory build.  There is always a sense that important details were eliminated for ease of assembly by the user. I don't have many pictures of my work but here is a Merino-Cashimir scarf I made for my wife using the Harrisville.

[kgg]

6 hours ago, Squid61 said:

If a beginner buys tools just because they are low cost there is a significant probability that more time will be spent fighting the tool than learning a craft.  Sure, given a certain level of natural talent, a good product can be produced with low quality tools but I don't feel that represents the normal outcome.  More likely is the beginner quitting in disgust.

I believe in buying good quality tools / equipment not necessarily the best or even new equipment but not the low priced cheap quality stuff unless I am going to treat it like a BIC lighter. If you don't like a particular aspect of the hobby chances are you can resell good quality equipment otherwise you maybe stuck keeping or taking a bath on resale. There is always a market for good used quality equipment. Good quality equipment always lessens the frustration associated with learning something new and helps, at least me, to concentrate on learning. I have always liked good quality equipment that was above my ability level, one less thing to wonder about. Equipment or me, most likely me. I typically try to follow the Buy Once, Cry Once method of buying equipment.

It really depends on what someone wants to do and how much money you can afford. Example you can make a leather wallet using thousands of dollars in equipment like clicker presses, electric skiver, electric burnishers, electric sewing machines, etc while at the minimalist end of the scale a box cutter, a little glue, straight edge, some tap water, carpenters hammer, rivet setter, and a few copper rivets.

kgg

 

 

[Klara]

For me electric machines are a completely different game. I think this discussion is more about box cutter vs. head knife and no-name tools vs. AbbeyofEngland vs. Barry King and Doldoki.

And the thing with (some) tools from Aliexpress is that they cost so little money (even if in my searches it's a bit more than in the first post) that you can't lose a lot on resale, or if you don't resell it's not a problem either. (Not to mention that I have a hard time letting go of things because I always think I might need them again one day. Last year showed that Marie Kondo is wrong...) If AbbeyofEngland sells an adjustable creaser for £ 35, and Aliexpress one that looks identical for € 12 - why would I buy from Abbey? Just so there is a brand symbol on it? (I'm in the EU, so logistics are the same whether I buy from England or China. )

But then that's not the cheapest creaser on Aliexpress, either. And I have some experience by now and watched some videos and seen this creaser being used by somebody I respect. If I had discovered Aliexpress a few months ago, heaven knows what I would have ended up with.

Squid61 said it:

16 hours ago, Squid61 said:

...My advice to beginners of leather or any other craft is to talk to an expert or at least experienced practitioner and buy a decent quality selection of individual tools based on sound advice.  Yes the cost may be higher at first but much lower in the end.

Problem is only finding good advice...

[tsunkasapa]

7 hours ago, Klara said:

(I'm in the EU, so logistics are the same whether I buy from England or China. )

I have reached a point where I am willing to pay more to have something that is NOT made in China. Nixon opened Pandora's Box all those years ago.

[Danne]

2 hours ago, tsunkasapa said:

I have reached a point where I am willing to pay more to have something that is NOT made in China. Nixon opened Pandora's Box all those years ago.

There are a lot of high quality tools and other things made in China also. Kevinlee make and resell some really good tools as an example. One of the best leathercraft threads are made by Meisi in China. A lot of the parts in your Techsew is made in China. 
 

And there are a lot of tools made in other places that are more expensive and not suitable for a beginner. 
 

Let’s take an example, a Blanchard awl is certainly not Suitable for a beginner, unless that person have experience from other crafts and can reshape/sharpen/polish the awl. Yes the steel quality is probably really good, but a new awl from Blanchard is more or less useless unless before you have finished the tool. 
 

Let’s take another example. Without having used them, I would certainly buy SPC hole punches instead of a lot of European (Germany France) or made in US, just by looking at the photos (talking about hole punches for fine leatherworking. 

[Klara]

4 hours ago, tsunkasapa said:

I have reached a point where I am willing to pay more to have something that is NOT made in China. Nixon opened Pandora's Box all those years ago.

I have a friend who thinks the same way. She went to buy an electric kettle and came home without one, because they were all made in China. Even European companies produce where labour is cheap...

That said, at least some times (possibly most times, but I only have one example) there is a difference between cheap things off Aliexpress and almost the same once bought from a reputable shop: Today my new pricking irons arrived which cost about a third of what I paid here. They look the same, down to the marking of the distance between the tines (of course it's a different number). But the tines are not polished. Which I saw on the photos, but as I use pricking irons only for marking the stitches, not for punching through the leather I figure it won't matter.