Saddle stitching confusion.

[Piko]

So, I have been working with leather for the whole 2 months now. Doing my saddle stitching all happy until I saw the first picture. That is not how I do my saddle stitches i do it like the second picture.  I pass the  thread in my right hand over the left hand thread which essentially create s a weave. Am i doing it wrong?

[tsunkasapa]

I pull the right thread through, and back. Then the left through and pull tight. I think you are over thinking it. Just do it the same every time for consistent stitches.

[Hardrada]

There's more than one way to do it. Which method you choose depends on the final look you want and also on how strong you need the stitches to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQK8R0oYT8o

[Klara]

I can't see any pictures, so don't quite know what you are talking about. 

I  learned saddle stitching from Al Stohlman's book "The Art of Handsewing Leather" which I can't recommend highly enough. I'm pretty sure it will answer all your questions, even those you didn't know you had.

 

[JLSleather]

11 hours ago, Hardrada said:

There's more than one way to do it. Which method you choose depends on the final look you want and also on how strong you need the stitches to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQK8R0oYT8o

 Not a chance I'm spending half an hour watching some dufus go on about something as simple as sewing with a needle 

SERIOUSLY folks... you want to know how to work with leather?  You have to WORK WITH LEATHER.  Stop spending your day on y-tube (pronounced WHY tube) and ACTUALLY DO IT.  Grasp the idea that you're going to make some mistakes, and jump in.

2 hours ago, Klara said:

I  learned saddle stitching from Al Stohlman's book "The Art of Handsewing Leather" which I can't recommend highly enough.

I love AL's books - probably owned most of them over the years.  But in this one, even Al (who is usually very to the point and informational) got a bit WORDY.  The book ABSOLUTELY IS worth having if you can get it.. just keep in mind that the principle is very simple.

[Tugadude]

There is a lot more to saddle stitching than simply passing the needles through the leather and dragging some thread along for the ride.  There are fine points to it and the results are easy to detect when you know what you are looking at.  Knowing how to get the best aesthetics out of a row of stitching takes trial and error.  Knowing when to use a "cast" or not and even being able to determine which spacing to use, size of thread, etc., all goes into the mix.

 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Tugadude said:

There is a lot more to saddle stitching than simply passing the needles through the leather and dragging some thread along for the ride.  There are fine points to it and the results are easy to detect when you know what you are looking at.  Knowing how to get the best aesthetics out of a row of stitching takes trial and error.  Knowing when to use a "cast" or not and even being able to determine which spacing to use, size of thread, etc., all goes into the mix.

 

ok so now please explain how do you do all that? i think that's what he wanted to know. i wouldn't mind either lol.

[Tugadude]

19 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

ok so now please explain how do you do all that? i think that's what he wanted to know. i wouldn't mind either lol.

In any endeavor there are people who appreciate things that others simply don't.  How many threads have there been about how to finish the edges of leather projects?  Tons.  And many are happy to leave raw edges, so there's that.  Some describe multi-step processes for their edges which include cutting, edging, sanding, waxing, buffing, sealing and coating, etc., etc.  And others are happy to just apply a bit of water and saddle soap and rub it with some canvas.  

And so stitching is similar in that some take great pains while others don't.

In my case, I floundered around and was able to improve the look of my stitching to where it didn't look hideous, but I still wasn't satisfied.  And then I stumbled upon Nigel Armitage's youtube channel and it changed all of that.  Suddenly I got the idea of what is supposed to happen and more importantly, how to achieve it.  What was once somewhat unpredictable became consistent.  I went from wanting to de-emphasize my stitching to wanting to use contrasting colored thread in order for it to stand out more.  And while the improvement was immediate, I'm still learning and improving.  Every project is different and has specific requirements.  I've also experimented with different stitching irons and found some conducive to certain projects and others not so much.  Same with thread composition and sizing.  

I have a phrase I use that I think encompasses the difficulty in acquiring the various skills and it is "there is no microwave for experience".  Experience is required and it takes time.  Everyone starts somewhere and some take less time to master things but everyone spends time doing it.  And the more you do, the faster the results, assuming you know how to make adjustments along the way.  You also may discover short-cuts which allow for better results with less work.  Work smarter, not harder, etc.

Regarding the comments about youtube, I obviously disagree.  The proof is in the pudding and Nigel's video had a big impact on my ability to execute a proper stitch.  Are there bad videos on youtube?  Of course.  But that doesn't mean they are all useless.  I still watch videos about leather techniques.  Sometimes 99% of the video covers stuff I already know, but it is that other 1% that makes all the difference.  If I pick up one little tip or trick, I consider it worthwhile.

[mike02130]

There is more than one way to saddle stitch.  This is a common method and the one I use.  When first learning I suggest that you pick one method and stick with it in order to avoid confusion.

Flat work such as a wallet. 

Prick through finish side.  Place in pony with finish side on right--the slants will be facing down and towards you. 

Start at far end.

Count two holes forward and back stich (not explained here).  Now you begin coming toward yourself. 

Poke right needle in to open up the hole and to guide the left needle. 

Pull out right needle as left needle enters.  Pull thread a few inches. 

Place right needle below left needle, making a cross.

Pull both sides of the left thread towards yourself (right and left side of the wallet) and insert right needle behind the left thread. 

Pull both threads through horizontally level (this causes less friction) and before the thread tightens, raise left arm up and away from you while placing right arm down and towards yourself while you cinch down the thread.  Think of a cheerleader with pom-poms (keep your mind on the sewing, not the cheerleaders).

Back stich two holes to finish off.

The beginning and ending back stich will now match.

Always be consistent in your movements.

The stitching on the face will be slanted while the stitching on the backside will be straight.  "Casting" will result in both sides having a slant.  

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Tugadude said:

In any endeavor there are people who appreciate things that others simply don't.  How many threads have there been about how to finish the edges of leather projects?  Tons.  And many are happy to leave raw edges, so there's that.  Some describe multi-step processes for their edges which include cutting, edging, sanding, waxing, buffing, sealing and coating, etc., etc.  And others are happy to just apply a bit of water and saddle soap and rub it with some canvas.  

And so stitching is similar in that some take great pains while others don't.

In my case, I floundered around and was able to improve the look of my stitching to where it didn't look hideous, but I still wasn't satisfied.  And then I stumbled upon Nigel Armitage's youtube channel and it changed all of that.  Suddenly I got the idea of what is supposed to happen and more importantly, how to achieve it.  What was once somewhat unpredictable became consistent.  I went from wanting to de-emphasize my stitching to wanting to use contrasting colored thread in order for it to stand out more.  And while the improvement was immediate, I'm still learning and improving.  Every project is different and has specific requirements.  I've also experimented with different stitching irons and found some conducive to certain projects and others not so much.  Same with thread composition and sizing.  

I have a phrase I use that I think encompasses the difficulty in acquiring the various skills and it is "there is no microwave for experience".  Experience is required and it takes time.  Everyone starts somewhere and some take less time to master things but everyone spends time doing it.  And the more you do, the faster the results, assuming you know how to make adjustments along the way.  You also may discover short-cuts which allow for better results with less work.  Work smarter, not harder, etc.

Regarding the comments about youtube, I obviously disagree.  The proof is in the pudding and Nigel's video had a big impact on my ability to execute a proper stitch.  Are there bad videos on youtube?  Of course.  But that doesn't mean they are all useless.  I still watch videos about leather techniques.  Sometimes 99% of the video covers stuff I already know, but it is that other 1% that makes all the difference.  If I pick up one little tip or trick, I consider it worthwhile.

Please don't think i was trying to be a smart a## with my comment you brought up really good points but said nothing about how to accomplish them.

when do you use a cast?

how do you determine spacing?

how do you determine size of thread?

Me i read and watched then practiced and practiced more its quite easy to stick two needles through a hole but as you said doing it so that it looks good from every aspect, hole size, thread size, corners etc. is the intended outcome i think for anyone.

I just bought new and good diamond chisels which brought up a question when you get to a corner how do you change the direction of the holes so the stitch sits correctly in it? the slits go from one direction to another is that a problem or an overthink?

Edited December 7, 2021 by chuck123wapati

[zuludog]

57 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

I just bought new and good diamond chisels which brought up a question when you get to a corner how do you change the direction of the holes so the stitch sits correctly in it? the slits go from one direction to another is that a problem or an overthink?

Make the holes with the diamond chisel along the sides right up to the corner; they will automatically slant in the right direction. Then for the hole in the actual corner use a round awl -- which (obviously) doesn't slant in any direction.

Edited December 7, 2021 by zuludog

[chuck123wapati]

4 minutes ago, zuludog said:

Make the holes with the diamond chisel along the sides right up to the corner; they will automatically slant in the right direction. Then for the hole in the actual corner use a round awl -- which (obviously) doesn't slant in any direction.

dang what an easy answer lol. I can do that. I thank you!

[JLSleather]

I don't like "chisels".  I didn't like them in the 80's when they were well made, and I certainly don't like the 'stuff' tha's available now. 

A good awl is much better for getting all the holes consistent depth (size) for the thread, works on items that arent' flat.  Having said that, a GOOD awl is tough to find too.

5 hours ago, Tugadude said:

best aesthetics out of a row of stitching takes trial and error

yeah, that's what I said.  Turn off the videos and all that time-sucking noise, and PRACTICE.

[Tugadude]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

Please don't think i was trying to be a smart a## with my comment you brought up really good points but said nothing about how to accomplish them.

when do you use a cast?

how do you determine spacing?

how do you determine size of thread?

Me i read and watched then practiced and practiced more its quite easy to stick two needles through a hole but as you said doing it so that it looks good from every aspect, hole size, thread size, corners etc. is the intended outcome i think for anyone.

I just bought new and good diamond chisels which brought up a question when you get to a corner how do you change the direction of the holes so the stitch sits correctly in it? the slits go from one direction to another is that a problem or an overthink?

I didn't think you were.  And you ask some really good questions.  Here's some answers based on what I've experienced.

when do you use a cast?  It really does nothing on very thin, pliable leather, so I never do it then.  If anything I found it counterproductive due to the amount of tension it created.  I always use it on thicker projects of overall 4 oz. layers and up.  And as stated previously, it does help the slant on the backside of your work.  Some don't care if their stitching slants, but I do.

how do you determine spacing?  To me it depends on the overall size of the item.  Small items demand tighter spacing and smaller thread to keep from looking chunky.  Too much thread on too small an article just looks bad to me.  I have one set of chisels at 2.7mm and I really like that for watch straps and wallets.  For notebooks and such, 3.5mm seems to work really nicely.  I have some 5mm chisels which I find helpful on turned bags because if you line the bag you don't see the stitching anyway.  

how do you determine size of thread?  Aesthetics mainly.  I know what I like and choose the size of iron and thread accordingly.  Nigel Armitage has a great set of reviews on his website in which he recommends what type of thread goes well with each tool reviewed.  I don't like chunky stitching.  But I don't like seeing too much of the hole either, so it can be a compromise.  In general I find myself using 0.6mm and 0.8mm bonded polyester mostly.  

 

And yes, when going around corners you want to put a round hole in the corner and measure carefully both directions so the "corner" stitches are identical.  If you need to cheat, do it somewhere along the stitch line, but never in the corner where it will be very obvious.

 

[Tugadude]

3 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

I don't like "chisels".  I didn't like them in the 80's when they were well made, and I certainly don't like the 'stuff' tha's available now. 

A good awl is much better for getting all the holes consistent depth (size) for the thread, works on items that arent' flat.  Having said that, a GOOD awl is tough to find too.

yeah, that's what I said.  Turn off the videos and all that time-sucking noise, and PRACTICE.

To each his/her own but chisels rock in my opinion.  They might not be for everyone and for every project, but they can help beginners and intermediates create a much better row of stitching than they otherwise could with an awl.

The advantages of the traditional awl are well established and all things being equal, projects where an awl is used will be stronger.  But, and there's always a but, all of my work is wallets, watch straps, small bags and the like and they aren't going to need the strength of stitch as horse tack, for example.

When I began in leatherwork there were just a couple of companies making stitching chisels and now there are dozens and dozens.  There's a reason and that's because they work.  You still have to practice with them, but like I said, in a relatively short period of time almost anyone can turn out a nice-looking and functional stitch.

[Klara]

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

...when you get to a corner how do you change the direction of the holes so the stitch sits correctly in it? the slits go from one direction to another is that a problem or an overthink?

In France, the mark (piercing through the leather is a big no no) in the corner is supposed to point to the inside of the piece.

As for the relationship between leather/object, stitches per inch, needle and thread, DecoCuir have tables, and probably other suppliers as well: https://www.decocuir.com/couture-cuir-fil-aiguille-choisir-guide-c1200x67488

But often it's a question of personal taste anyway.

6 hours ago, JLSleather said:

  But in this one, even Al (who is usually very to the point and informational) got a bit WORDY.  ..

I admit, I started by mostly looking at the pictures (they are drawings of a quality to remind us that drawings can be better than photos. Later, when I read the text, the book got even better...

Edited December 7, 2021 by Klara

[JLSleather]

2 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

There's a reason and that's because they work.

perhaps.  or perhaps they're making more of them because they're cheap and easy to make and they sell?

where's the british gal usedta come around here.... beautiful stitching at like 11 to the inch... can't remember what her name was now ...

[Klara]

Stitching chisels are a shortcut to a nice-looking item, but they cost a lot of money (for just marking stitches the cheapies from Aliexpress will do) and I feel that working with an awl is faster. And more fun.

[Tugadude]

JLS said...

"where's the british gal usedta come around here.... beautiful stitching at like 11 to the inch... can't remember what her name was now ..."

You probably mean Valerie Michael, and her work is world-renowned.  

[alpha2]

I second Nigel Armitage videos. Saved me from giving up hand stitching altogether. And JLS is right, there are MANY videos that have no business being on youtube. Like the ones that have the stitchers hands blocking what is going on, most of the time. 

[chuck123wapati]

46 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

I didn't think you were.  And you ask some really good questions.  Here's some answers based on what I've experienced.

when do you use a cast?  It really does nothing on very thin, pliable leather, so I never do it then.  If anything I found it counterproductive due to the amount of tension it created.  I always use it on thicker projects of overall 4 oz. layers and up.  And as stated previously, it does help the slant on the backside of your work.  Some don't care if their stitching slants, but I do.

how do you determine spacing?  To me it depends on the overall size of the item.  Small items demand tighter spacing and smaller thread to keep from looking chunky.  Too much thread on too small an article just looks bad to me.  I have one set of chisels at 2.7mm and I really like that for watch straps and wallets.  For notebooks and such, 3.5mm seems to work really nicely.  I have some 5mm chisels which I find helpful on turned bags because if you line the bag you don't see the stitching anyway.  

how do you determine size of thread?  Aesthetics mainly.  I know what I like and choose the size of iron and thread accordingly.  Nigel Armitage has a great set of reviews on his website in which he recommends what type of thread goes well with each tool reviewed.  I don't like chunky stitching.  But I don't like seeing too much of the hole either, so it can be a compromise.  In general I find myself using 0.6mm and 0.8mm bonded polyester mostly.  

 

And yes, when going around corners you want to put a round hole in the corner and measure carefully both directions so the "corner" stitches are identical.  If you need to cheat, do it somewhere along the stitch line, but never in the corner where it will be very obvious.

 

Thanks a bunch your comments will save a lot of folk as well as me some thinking that's for sure. I mainly work with holster and sheaths, thick stuff but a guy never knows who may ask for what lol.

[mike02130]

3 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

I just bought new and good diamond chisels which brought up a question when you get to a corner how do you change the direction of the holes so the stitch sits correctly in it? the slits go from one direction to another is that a problem or an overthink?

 

[Klara]

Decocuir website says A is the right way and I guess we see why....

[zuludog]

16 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

I just bought new and good diamond chisels

I wonder, if you don't mind, could you tell us what make they are, and why you chose them?

15 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

dang what an easy answer lol. I can do that. I thank you!

And I've learned something as well --- Americans really do say 'dang' .......and I thought it was just in the cowboy films!

[Spyros]

I went to great lengths to achieve the slanted look in the front and back of my stitches... I made 4 different stitching ponies and clams for myself because I couldn't find exactly what I wanted, I watched every video, got a collection of different chisels, I even made a jig with ratchet straps that I use to stretch my bags between the ceiling and the bench clam, so I can stitch pro-per-ly in every single awkward spot.  Anyway, I eventually got to a point that I can get my stitches to look any way I like, if I want to.

And then one day I was reading a comment by a guy who bought an industrial sewing machine, and the machine had some weird deflection in the needle, which caused his stitches to look slanted, pretty much like hand stitched.  And he was furious, complaining everywhere that this is unacceptable, his machine is faulty etc.  And then someone told him, look, slanted stitching is actually considered a desirable feature in stitching.  And the guy was like "Whaaaaat? Bullshit slanted! I want my stitches straight!".   And I got this nervous laughter, and I couldn't stop laughing, because I realised at that moment that I actually agree with the guy, deep down I also always thought that straight stitches look better LOL

And now I'm laughing even more because none of us have understood what is the actual question is that we're trying to answer, because the OP asked something about some photos, the photos are nowhere, the OP disappeared, and we're all taking turns saying our thing anyway