What can a Juki TL actually do?

[CrankAddict]

When I talk to Juki dealers, their employees rave about personally owning the TL2010Q and TL18QVP (Haruka).  They say the 2010 can handle garment leather no problem, and the 18 is even better due to the adjustable height presser foot.  I've seen some youtube demos of it buzzing right through thinner leather, so it must be able to do "something" but for all the Juki love around here I do not see either of these models mentioned even one time on this site, ever.  Clearly a 1541 or 1508 is a more capable industrial machine, but for a hobbyist making a few bags, wallets, watchstraps, etc for himself, where will these TL machines fall short?  I'm so new to sewing in general (and leatherwork for that matter) that I struggle to know what questions to ask or what specs to look at, so I'm hoping one of you might hold my hand a bit

Thanks!

[chrisash]

One new machine that has walking feet and is low cost about £650 in the UK including servo motor and table is the Jack H2 a step below the 1541 but better than the domestic machines 

When they talk about domestic machines sewing leather they forget to mention maybe two layers of 1.5mm chrome leather max and very thin veg tan

The 1541 is compound feed so walking feet plus needle feed so you are guaranteed equal spaced stitches 

 

[DrmCa]

Integrity is a scarce resource in the Earth's crust and atmosphere. My wife bought a serger from one such lady who also raved about owning one and being able to "do anything" with it. Then she ordered a 20+ lot of custom school uniforms from my wife, begged to release the finished product, but never paid. Household bottom-feed machines do not sew leather, period. This should be considered true and unless the user is very experienced and knows what they are doing on a very tight budget, they should not buy a household machine. But when such machine costs bloody $1200 it makes no sense at all to dump so much $$ into it. I would understand contemplating whether to buy or not to buy a $100 domestic machine but not that Juki.

[Wizcrafts]

5 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

When I talk to Juki dealers, their employees rave about personally owning the TL2010Q and TL18QVP (Haruka).  They say the 2010 can handle garment leather no problem, and the 18 is even better due to the adjustable height presser foot.  I've seen some youtube demos of it buzzing right through thinner leather, so it must be able to do "something" but for all the Juki love around here I do not see either of these models mentioned even one time on this site, ever.  Clearly a 1541 or 1508 is a more capable industrial machine, but for a hobbyist making a few bags, wallets, watchstraps, etc for himself, where will these TL machines fall short?  I'm so new to sewing in general (and leatherwork for that matter) that I struggle to know what questions to ask or what specs to look at, so I'm hoping one of you might hold my hand a bit

Thanks!

The reason those models haven't been discussed here is because this forum is dedicated to leather sewing machines. Those are not leather sewing machines! What few domestic sewing machines that are discussed here are usually somewhat able to sew 4 to 6 ounces of leather, if only under duress. Most of those are very old, cast iron body Singer machines with steel internal components. Oftentimes, these ancient machines can be found in antiques stores for a couple hundred bucks. If somebody toasts a $100 or $200 sewing machine they probably won't have a mental breakdown. Not so with a $1000+ Juki that was meant for light weight quilting and cotton garment work.

Beware machines offered as "industrial strength" or "industrial quality." A sewing machine is either industrial or domestic. The only portable sewing machine I consider semi-industrial is the Sailrite, with the upgraded Worker B motor and Monster II balance wheel. Even this can only sew 1/4 inch of veg-tan leather and should have the optional knurled feet added on instead of the standard feet with aggressive teeth..

There is a hand cranked leather stitcher made by Cowboy. It is the Cowboy Outlaw. It might possibly do what you are looking to do. It costs about the same as the upgraded Sailrite.

[CrankAddict]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

The reason those models haven't been discussed here is because this forum is dedicated to leather sewing machines. Those are not leather sewing machines! What few domestic sewing machines that are discussed here are usually somewhat able to sew 4 to 6 ounces of leather, if only under duress.

I get that the forum is dedicated to leather sewing machines, but does that imply the sewing machine has to be dedicated to leather?  People surely have used this class of higher quality domestic machine to do something with leather.  My question was what are the limits?  I have no desire to make anything out of 1/4" thick leather.  A watch strap starts to get too thick for my tastes at under 3mm.  I would have no delusions of being able to sew a heavy duty veg tan project with a smaller machine, but I just find it a bit hard to understand how it could be so unusable as to have never come up in discussion before.  In any case, here it is for the archives the next time some idiot like me searches

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, CrankAddict said:

I get that the forum is dedicated to leather sewing machines, but does that imply the sewing machine has to be dedicated to leather?

Basically, yes. The forum is Leatherworker.net and our requirements for sewing machines often far exceeds the capabilities of any domestic (household), quilting, or embroidery machine. There are other forums where those machines are discussed in detail. Even the auto upholstery and general upholstery trades have sub-forums dedicated to discussing sewing machines geared for their trade. Shoe makers and repairers have forums where they discuss machines and tools specific to those trades.

A lot of new members, as well as hand sewers want to machine sew fairly thin projects, like wallets, tote bags, watch straps, belts and some pouches. A little later they get known and somebody asks them if they can build a holster or sheath. That's when the sh_t hits the fan with their under powered, upholstery grade, or incorrect feed type industrial, or domestic sewing machine. This section of the LWN is where those folks come to ask and learn about the type of sewing machine they need to sew thick and/or dense leather with thick thread and big needles. Most, as it frequently turns out, end up needing to sew over 3/8 inch of veg-tan leather with thread sizes from #207 UP. Domestic machines usually max out with #69 thread and will be lucky to sew 3/16 inch of veg-tan leather. Upholstery grade machines usually are at their extreme high end sewing 3/8 inch with #138 thread.

This may help explain why nobody has discussed the Juki quilting machines you asked about. They are outside our typical scope of use. But, they are cute to look at! Kinda like a Singer Featherweight is cute to look at.

[kgg]

1 hour ago, CrankAddict said:

but I just find it a bit hard to understand how it could be so unusable as to have never come up in discussion before. 

Juki's are overall excellent quality machines but these are made for the domestic fabric side of the sewing hobby. These machines would not standup very long to the day in day out of a production setting. The max thread size for domestic sewing machines as well as these ends at V69 where as the industrial machines usually that is their minimum thread size. The machines you mention are drop feed machines being good at what they were intended for, fabric, and the very occasional sewing of very thin leather. If you need to sew multi layers of leather or even fabric you need at minimum a proper walking foot machine similar to a Juki 1181n or preferably better. Trying to in general compare a domestic sewing machine to an industrial is like trying to compare apples to oranges particularly the newer AL or plastic bodied machines. The older domestic Singers even though they were made for the domestic market would and have stood up better as they were constructed with better quality materials in a lot of cases then a lot of the now higher quality. 

Yes there are quite a number of people both the pro's and the hobbyists that have more then one machine each better or more capable at doing somethings then others. There is no one machine that will do everything you just got to figure out what machine will cover most of your bases. For thin fabric and 4 or 5 layers of 21 oz canvas or binding I like my Juki 1181N for those tasks.

kgg

 

[DrmCa]

8 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

People surely have used this class of higher quality domestic machine to do something with leather.

What makes you think so? It is quite a stretch. Probably they haven't because it does not make sense.

[CrankAddict]

1 hour ago, DrmCa said:

What makes you think so? It is quite a stretch. Probably they haven't because it does not make sense.

I've spoken to people directly who have used a 2010 to alter leather coats.  My friend's wife is a manager at a Juki dealer.  The premise that a Juki dealer would lie to me and say that a $999 machine can do something when they could easily try to sell me a machine that costs double just doesn't make any sense.  I'd have to believe they prefer less profit and unhappy customers?   Here is a video of a sewing machine repair shop doing a teardown and test on a Singer "Heavy Duty", including measuring motor current draw, while sewing as much leather as he could possibly jam under the presser foot.  He concludes it is a decent machine.  This thing sells for $199.  Just makes it hard to understand how the Japanese made "cute" Juki at 5x the cost will burst into flames as soon as I install the leather needle.

I see your signature mentions metal and woodworking.  Yes, it's nice to have a Mig and a Tig.  But you can make a lot of stuff with just a stick welder.  Yes, it's nice to have a bandsaw, miter saw, track saw, and table saw.  But before I had all that I was able to make some decent items using only a jobsite Dewalt table saw.  That seems like the Juki TL class to me.  Is it as capable as a Sawstop or Powermatic cabinet saw?  Obviously not.  But for its class of machine it is well built and with the right setup and blade I can definitely achieve good results.

 

8 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Basically, yes. The forum is Leatherworker.net and our requirements for sewing machines often far exceeds the capabilities of any domestic (household), quilting, or embroidery machine.

This section of the LWN is where those folks come to ask and learn about the type of sewing machine they need to sew thick and/or dense leather with thick thread and big needles. 

There are many, many posts by beginners and hobbyists on leatherworker.net.  I did not realize that the sewing machine subforum was intended for heavy duty, professional level leather workers only (perhaps the name should be "Industrial Leather Sewing Machines")?.  After further looking, I do see the sub-forum's description line talks about industrial machines, I had missed that previously.  Apologies, I will not post in here again

Edited February 4, 2022 by CrankAddict

[Matt S]

8 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

I get that the forum is dedicated to leather sewing machines, but does that imply the sewing machine has to be dedicated to leather?  People surely have used this class of higher quality domestic machine to do something with leather.  My question was what are the limits?  I have no desire to make anything out of 1/4" thick leather.  A watch strap starts to get too thick for my tastes at under 3mm. 

Not necessarily dedicated/designed for leather, but should certainly be suitable for leather. Many not-intended-for-leather machines are discussed here, such as the Singer 31K, which is/was mainly for tailors making and altering clothing or the Singer 132K, which was mostly intended for heavy canvas work e.g. tents. These are industrial machines that can be setup to work in certain slots of the wide spectrum of leather work. Equally not all industrial machines are well suited to leather of course, like most garment machines which need to be run at the multiple thousand RPMs in order to deliver oil to their moving parts.
 

1 hour ago, CrankAddict said:

There are many, many posts by beginners and hobbyists on leatherworker.net.  I did not realize that the sewing machine subforum was intended for heavy duty, professional level leather workers only (perhaps the name should be "Industrial Leather Sewing Machines")?.  After further looking, I do see the sub-forum's description line talks about industrial machines, I had missed that previously.  Apologies, I will not post in here again

Domestic machines are discussed here, within their own context. Many members (including me) are very keen that people reading posts don't take away or have reinforced inaccurate ideas of these machines' capabilities that unscrupulous or inexperienced salespeople often claim.

The most popularly discussed domestics here are mid-century or earlier ones with cast iron bodies, case hardened steel gears etc. Frankly they can take a pounding above their design envelope far better than what I have seen being offered on the domestic market for the past 50+ years. But then I'm not an expert, maybe there are better modern domestic or quilting machines that can do it without premature wear or breakdown. Doubt it though.

Some people make a hobby of taking older domestic machines and making them what they are well suited and were never intended to do. That's fine as an enjoyable activity in its own right rather than a reliable way of making a leather sewing machine and again has often been discussed here.
 

Quote

I would have no delusions of being able to sew a heavy duty veg tan project with a smaller machine, but I just find it a bit hard to understand how it could be so unusable as to have never come up in discussion before.  In any case, here it is for the archives the next time some idiot like me searches

Domestic machines have been discussed on these fora many times, but like many other topics it can be hard to look through the archives without knowing exactly the lucky search terms. Unfortunately the internal search has always been a little under-performing. I find that using a Google site search to bring up more useful results. I think there's been a reduction in posts here in the past couple years so perhaps the topic of domestic machines just hasn't come up much recently?

Limits for domestic sewing machines on leather are, generally speaking, 2-3mm total thickness of medium temper chrome tan or a bit less in veg tan leather unless very soft. Max thread size is probably v69/TKT40 using a size 18/nm110 leather point needle. Max stitch length is generally around 3mm or 8SPI and may be lower on leather as the maxed out tension, potentially grabby foot and not-very-positive feed may not grip the work enough to feed it the entire length of the feed stroke. As 99+% of these machines are drop-feed-only you are very likely to encounter layer slippage unless very carefully handled or your layers are glued together, and very likely feed-dog marks on the underside (which aren't the end of the world, but are usually less acceptable these days than 50+ years ago). There's also likely to be uneven/inconsistent stitch length and formation. Tension will be at or near its limit which will put extra strain on parts like the take-up arm and its driving parts, which will increase the likelihood of breaking or bending. You will probably also have the foot pressure cranked up to max to prevent lifting of the piece with the needle, which may inhibit the easy functioning of your machine.

Remember that sewing anything other than thin, soft garment leather will put stresses on a machine that domestics and most garment/cloth type machines simply weren't/aren't designed to handle. Primarily they occur at the point when driving the needle into the material, pulling tension on the thread, and pulling the needle free of the material after stitch lock. This will put strain on the moving and fixed parts that may result in premature wear, breakage or bending. Your motor may also be put under extra strain, as it takes a lot of force to drive the needle into the leather. Older machines (especially those fitted with a hand crank or treadle) are often found to be more useful as their have a heavier balance wheel which "stores" more energy to get through that through bit of the stitch cycle. I don't think I've seen any modern domestic with anything like that, except some Indian copies of 19th century domestics.

[DrmCa]

2 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

The premise that a Juki dealer would lie to me and say that a $999 machine can do something when they could easily try to sell me a machine that costs double just doesn't make any sense. 

You are not the first one to come here and get your pants in the knot over buying a domestic machine in the hope that it would stitch leather.

I could lecture you on how salespeople are trained to size people and their budgets but you clearly know everything already, so I'll let you be.

All I can tell you is that between myself and my wife we've gone over the 120 YO hand-crank Singer, a number of cast iron, pot metal, and plastic domestic machines, and now we own that which is in my sig line on top of 2x domestic Singers, 1x domestic Brother, and 1x domestic Kenmore of which only the latter is being used while the former 2x are collecting dust in the basement.

[kgg]

1 hour ago, DrmCa said:

You are not the first one to come here and get your pants in the knot over buying a domestic machine in the hope that it would stitch leather.

I think a lot of people search the net for "the best leather sewing machine" reviews before buying. When you look at almost all of them they are nothing more then domestic machines being reviewed. This coupled with sales people not being properly trained that are dealing with mostly the domestic market and you wind up with members of the general public being mislead (insert non politically correct word) to say the least.

kgg

[chrisash]

@CrankAddict Regarding your video that's very soft chrome leather he is using as you can see by how easy it is toe bend double

[CrankAddict]

8 hours ago, Matt S said:

Limits for domestic sewing machines on leather are, generally speaking, 2-3mm total thickness of medium temper chrome tan or a bit less in veg tan leather unless very soft. Max thread size is probably v69/TKT40 using a size 18/nm110 leather point needle. Max stitch length is generally around 3mm or 8SPI and may be lower on leather as the maxed out tension, potentially grabby foot and not-very-positive feed may not grip the work enough to feed it the entire length of the feed stroke. As 99+% of these machines are drop-feed-only you are very likely to encounter layer slippage unless very carefully handled or your layers are glued together, and very likely feed-dog marks on the underside (which aren't the end of the world, but are usually less acceptable these days than 50+ years ago). There's also likely to be uneven/inconsistent stitch length and formation. Tension will be at or near its limit which will put extra strain on parts like the take-up arm and its driving parts, which will increase the likelihood of breaking or bending. You will probably also have the foot pressure cranked up to max to prevent lifting of the piece with the needle, which may inhibit the easy functioning of your machine.

Remember that sewing anything other than thin, soft garment leather will put stresses on a machine that domestics and most garment/cloth type machines simply weren't/aren't designed to handle. Primarily they occur at the point when driving the needle into the material, pulling tension on the thread, and pulling the needle free of the material after stitch lock. This will put strain on the moving and fixed parts that may result in premature wear, breakage or bending. Your motor may also be put under extra strain, as it takes a lot of force to drive the needle into the leather. Older machines (especially those fitted with a hand crank or treadle) are often found to be more useful as their have a heavier balance wheel which "stores" more energy to get through that through bit of the stitch cycle. I don't think I've seen any modern domestic with anything like that, except some Indian copies of 19th century domestics.

Thanks Matt, lots of great info in there, I appreciate it!

 

7 hours ago, DrmCa said:

You are not the first one to come here and get your pants in the knot over buying a domestic machine in the hope that it would stitch leather.

I could lecture you on how salespeople are trained to size people and their budgets but you clearly know everything already, so I'll let you be.

All I can tell you is that between myself and my wife we've gone over the 120 YO hand-crank Singer, a number of cast iron, pot metal, and plastic domestic machines, and now we own that which is in my sig line on top of 2x domestic Singers, 1x domestic Brother, and 1x domestic Kenmore of which only the latter is being used while the former 2x are collecting dust in the basement.

Again, I appreciate the insinuation that I'm stupid enough to think salespeople are 100% forthcoming.  But I still cannot find the logic behind a dealer who sells both a small machine and a big machine telling me the small machine can do something it cannot.  Why would GM lie about what the 1/2 ton truck can tow when they have a 3/4 and 1 ton they could tell me I need instead?  It's not like I gave them a budget, or was on the verge of walking out the door, I was literally asking an open ended question about what I needed... I guess some sales people are as dumb as me!

 

4 hours ago, chrisash said:

@CrankAddict Regarding your video that's very soft chrome leather he is using as you can see by how easy it is toe bend double

Noted, understood.  But THIS is the sort of thing I was trying to get it.  Keep in mind my post is titled "what can it actually do?".  I.e. I was looking for precisely those types of parameters: X layers of leather of Y type and Z thickness with thread size blah blah blah.   Some seem to have read the post as "Why did you guys waste money on these industrial machines when a domestic sewing machine can clearly do it all?  And how do I know this?  Because the salesperson told me!!"

[Wizcrafts]

16 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

Keep in mind my post is titled "what can it actually do?".  I.e. I was looking for precisely those types of parameters: X layers of leather of Y type and Z thickness with thread size blah blah blah.   Some seem to have read the post as "Why did you guys waste money on these industrial machines when a domestic sewing machine can clearly do it all?  And how do I know this?  Because the salesperson told me!!"

This sentence reminds me of when I decided I needed a sewing machine to sew a leather vest I was making from a Tandy Leather pattern and using their chrome tan leather the salesman recommended. He told me that he had a nice Singer Slant Needle machine for sale on consignment. I went to the back to look it over and decided to try it out. He threaded it up, put a small sample cut of similar leather under the foot, pressed the pedal and immediately broke the needle into a dozen pieces! The motor smelled bad too after that event. The smell of hot wires. Anywho, the Tandy guy told me that I needed an industrial sewing machine. This began my search for a leather sewing machine.

I let me fingers do the walking and found an industrial sewing machine dealer not far from the Tandy store. I told him what I wanted to sew and he told me that he had the exact machine I needed to sew leather and it was only $200!. An hour later I had a Singer 96k40,with a 20x48 inch table, a clutch motor, light and thread stand in my station wagon. I could hardly wait to get it home, drag in downstairs to the basement, set it up and begin sewing leather! But, I was in for some serious fetchin' up.

The dealer had supplied me with a spool of black #69 bonded nylon thread and a pack of ten #18 round point needles. I broke all ten needles trying to feed and sew the vest, which dragged to a halt at every change of layers. The stitches varied in length all over the place. The holes were  ugly and the thread bunched up on the bottom. But, he said it was just the machine I needed to sew leather! It must be so! I called him back and he told me that I bought the wrong type of feed. I needed a walking foot machine! Huh? I asked what that was and he told me he had one for sale. I asked if I could bring back the 96k40 in trade and he said NO, all sales are final!

As I learned a few weeks later, the Singer 96k40, although an industrial sewing machine, was NOT a leather sewing machine. It was a tailoring machine for cloth garments and light ones at that.

The "walking foot" machine he sold me, for $400 for the head only (shared table and knee lever), was a Singer 31-19 with a spring foot mechanism. It was from the early 1910s, but it sewed my layered vest without breaking any needles or having uneven stitch lengths. It was an eye opener for me. As archaic as the spring foot was, it worked.

A year later I found and bought a Singer 111w155, which had an actual triple or compound feed walking foot mechanism. I thought that machine could sew anything made of leather, including holsters. But, again, I had some fetchin' up coming...

[dikman]

Which is precisely why we have that excellent sticky by Wiz about what machine(s) you need to sew leather. Even with that, the learning curve for a novice (me) was pretty steep.

Honestly, if you go into a dealer and say you want something to sew leather if they know anything at all about the subject they should not be recommending a domestic machine (of any kind). There is a very  high probability that it will eventually end in frustration (or crying, if you're a gentle soul).

[Spyros]

I think leatherworkers have a use for those machines.  Not for leather as such, but sometimes you need to make a drop-in liner out of thin/soft goat skin or sunbrella, or you're doing a canvas & leather bag and you have to do sections of only canvas. Looks like that little "heavy duty" domestic machine would be just fine for those applications and a nice complement to a leather workshop.  It looks like it has a metal frame under the plastic, most cogs are metal, and most importantly it looks like Singer made it be repairable, and they don't do that for machines that are meant to be used for a couple of years and then throw away.  

I wouldn't mind one of those for those ancillary to leatherworking tasks.  That is of course if Singer Australia wasn't taking the piss with their pricing.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Spyros

[Spyros]

2 hours ago, dikman said:

Which is precisely why we have that excellent sticky by Wiz about what machine(s) you need to sew leather. Even with that, the learning curve for a novice (me) was pretty steep.

Honestly, if you go into a dealer and say you want something to sew leather if they know anything at all about the subject they should not be recommending a domestic machine (of any kind). There is a very  high probability that it will eventually end in frustration (or crying, if you're a gentle soul).

yeah but if you go into a dealer there is also a high probability they will steer you towards a $10k Juki when all you want to do is a bag a week as a hobby.  Don't ask me how I know 

[Matt S]

19 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

Thanks Matt, lots of great info in there, I appreciate it!

You're welcome! 

19 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

Again, I appreciate the insinuation that I'm stupid enough to think salespeople are 100% forthcoming.  But I still cannot find the logic behind a dealer who sells both a small machine and a big machine telling me the small machine can do something it cannot.  Why would GM lie about what the 1/2 ton truck can tow when they have a 3/4 and 1 ton they could tell me I need instead?  It's not like I gave them a budget, or was on the verge of walking out the door, I was literally asking an open ended question about what I needed... I guess some sales people are as dumb as me!

Honestly I think it's ignorance -- most sewing machine dealers, even those who focus on industrial machines, have very little idea of what's needed for leather. Your dealer may have very well thought that the TL2010 was plenty enough gun. Unless the person comes from a background in farming, horses, safety gear, historical re-enactment etc. the average man on the street thinks is leather is a thin material with a soft handle used for making shoes, wallets and bags with multiple layers. The thickest, toughest leather they've probably come across is a 3mm/1/8" thick single layer belt or maybe a leather sole on a fancy shoe. I've had very skilled tradesmen astounded that I can make 6mm (1/4") thick belts. It's just two layers of bridle leather glued and stitched together, a very basic task for the heavier side of the leather trades, either by hand or machine. My 100-year-old harness stitcher can do an inch of that stuff all day.
 

8 hours ago, Spyros said:

I think leatherworkers have a use for those machines.  Not for leather as such, but sometimes you need to make a drop-in liner out of thin/soft goat skin or sunbrella, or you're doing a canvas & leather bag and you have to do sections of only canvas. Looks like that little "heavy duty" domestic machine would be just fine for those applications and a nice complement to a leather workshop.  It looks like it has a metal frame under the plastic, most cogs are metal, and most importantly it looks like Singer made it be repairable, and they don't do that for machines that are meant to be used for a couple of years and then throw away.  

I wouldn't mind one of those for those ancillary to leatherworking tasks.  That is of course if Singer Australia wasn't taking the piss with their pricing.

Agree with you on this point. I've got a variety of non-leather-working "stuff" that supports the leatherwork. A fabric/garment type machine can be a handy thing in a leather workshop. A domestic is a cheap and low-bulk way of gaining that capability for occasional use. I tend to gravitate towards the older ones (like my 1930s 66K) but acknowledge that the more modern plastic fantastics do have some useful features, like pattern stitching at the press of a button.

8 hours ago, Spyros said:

yeah but if you go into a dealer there is also a high probability they will steer you towards a $10k Juki when all you want to do is a bag a week as a hobby.  Don't ask me how I know 

Not knowing what you said you wanted to sew I would give that dealer the potential copout that whether you're doing 1 bag a week or 100 that $10K Juki might be the minimum viable machine to get the capability you asked for. Let's say you wanted to be able to sew heavy leather holsters but also adjust down to sew lighter wallets and bags. They may not have anything else capable of the job that isn't a $10K TSC-441 or DNU-243. No matter how often you use it you still need to buy a machine with the same capabilities, and industrial/leather machines don't appear to be in enough demand to become a consumer item engineered to be cheaper with a similar quality of output but shorter lifespan than the professional equivalent like we're used to seeing with other things, like domestic appliances, DIY tools or consumer electronics.

[CrankAddict]

2 hours ago, Matt S said:

Unless the person comes from a background in farming, horses, safety gear, historical re-enactment etc. the average man on the street thinks is leather is a thin material with a soft handle used for making shoes, wallets and bags with multiple layers.

But isn't "leather" interchangeable for "wood" in this regard?  I can build nice furniture all day long with the tools I have accumulated.  The wood is all going to be 2" thick or less and depending on the type of cut I pick from an array of saws to fit the task.  But as soon as you show up with 6" x 6" timber beams looking to build a cabin I'm completely stuck.  I don't have anything in the shop that can do even a simple crosscut on those monsters.  You wouldn't refer to a furniture maker or cabinet maker as "the average man on the street" as if to imply he knows nothing about wood.  His projects just utilize a different scale of material.  In your examples the first half of the list is of no interest to me whatsoever, whereas wallets, watch straps, European style bags, thin belts are exactly what I'm wanting to do.  The talk of a 1" thick leather project sounds as crazy to me as a 1' thick wood project.  I'm coming to realize that I found my way into the lumberjack corner of the leatherworking universe so I understand that my target projects are a bit out of sync with the normal stuff around here 

Edited February 5, 2022 by CrankAddict

[DrmCa]

22 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

Again, I appreciate the insinuation that I'm stupid enough to think salespeople are 100% forthcoming.

OMG, you really are angry. What do you know of their margin and sales targets per model?

[Matt S]

1 hour ago, CrankAddict said:

But isn't "leather" interchangeable for "wood" in this regard? 

Yes, to an extent. Essentially you've gone into a hobby shop and asked them for a table saw for cutting wood. They've recommended a £400 Proxxon FET. It's a well made, easy to use machine with a lot of handy features. Unfortunately it's a model maker's wood saw and you want to build furniture. Does it cut wood? Yes, it's great for ripping floorboards for a dolls house or planking for your Bluenose model. However try to cut a bunch of chair legs from 1.5" stock and it's going to struggle and break. Same as "your" TL2010 when sewing anything heavier than a couple millimetres of soft leather.

Your Dewalt jobsite saw is a far better option -- it's got fewer fancy features, it's heavier, bulkier and probably would make a mess of those dolls house floorboards, but it's far more powerful, robustly built, and is actually capable of the job you want to do. The sales person in the hobby shop either mostly thinks of wood as little bits of basswood that come in handy packs in aisle 3 (and therefore their experience says "the Proxxon is entirely suitable for cutting wood") or doesn't care -- they don't sell professional power tools and don't get their commission/hit their quota by sending customers down to the builder's supplier round the corner.
 

Quote

Yes, it's nice to have a bandsaw, miter saw, track saw, and table saw.  But before I had all that I was able to make some decent items using only a jobsite Dewalt table saw.  That seems like the Juki TL class to me.  Is it as capable as a Sawstop or Powermatic cabinet saw?  Obviously not.  But for its class of machine it is well built and with the right setup and blade I can definitely achieve good results.

At the risk of being very blunt, no it's not and I think every person in this thread has tried to explain why it's not and offer alternatives that are a bit more like what you want. Unfortunately the options are limited.
 

On 2/4/2022 at 2:36 PM, CrankAddict said:

I've spoken to people directly who have used a 2010 to alter leather coats.  My friend's wife is a manager at a Juki dealer.

Out of interest, is your friend's wife a dealer in industrial or domestic/hobby Jukis? I believe that Juki keeps those two things very separate.
 

Quote

You wouldn't refer to a furniture maker or cabinet maker as "the average man on the street" as if to imply he knows nothing about wood.

No, I'd refer to the man on the street as "the average man on the street". Compared with a furniture maker or cabinet maker he would know very little about wood. He might think of wood as the flat things Ikea furniture is made from. Nobody on this site looks down on people who use thin leather for watch straps, wallets or bags. However if you went on a woodworking forum and asked "what can a Proxxon FET actually do? I've seen videos of it buzzing through bits of 1/8" masonite" the experienced forumites there might say "maybe 3/4" of real wood with a struggle. Get a contractor saw at minimum to cut anything heavier, here's a few options.". That's what has happened in this thread but with leather.
 

Quote

The talk of a 1" thick leather project sounds as crazy to me as a 1' thick wood project.  I'm coming to realize that I found my way into the lumberjack corner of the leatherworking universe so I understand that my target projects are a bit out of sync with the normal stuff around here 

It is, admittedly, towards the top end of what is commonly done. Many of the active participants of this forum tend towards the heavier side of things. Mostly the "hard" leather trades like holsters and saddles rather than the "soft" ones like shoemaking or bag making. As you say -- cabin building or shipbuilding type stuff.

[Spyros]

3 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

But isn't "leather" interchangeable for "wood" in this regard?  I can build nice furniture all day long with the tools I have accumulated.  The wood is all going to be 2" thick or less and depending on the type of cut I pick from an array of saws to fit the task.  But as soon as you show up with 6" x 6" timber beams looking to build a cabin I'm completely stuck.  I don't have anything in the shop that can do even a simple crosscut on those monsters.  You wouldn't refer to a furniture maker or cabinet maker as "the average man on the street" as if to imply he knows nothing about wood.  His projects just utilize a different scale of material.  In your examples the first half of the list is of no interest to me whatsoever, whereas wallets, watch straps, European style bags, thin belts are exactly what I'm wanting to do.  The talk of a 1" thick leather project sounds as crazy to me as a 1' thick wood project.  I'm coming to realize that I found my way into the lumberjack corner of the leatherworking universe so I understand that my target projects are a bit out of sync with the normal stuff around here 

I guess you'd have to actually see a leather sewing machine up close, and then you'd understand immediately.  It was definitely not what I expected when I saw mine for the first time, they are total monsters, they look like some component out of a nuclear submarine.  Mine came on a pallet that barely fit inside a van and it weighed 130kg all up with the motor and the stand.  130!  Solid steel everywhere.  I questioned it a lot as it seemed total overkill, but it is like that for a reason, it's required not only for the longevity of the machine and its ability to pierce the leather, but also the absorption of vibrations and the quality and consistency of the stitching itself.  Now, quality and presentation of stitching is probably not something you're thinking about right now, but it is a big deal in leatherworking as the threads tend to be a lot thicker and much more visible.  The "heavy duty" domestics will not even accept the thickness of thread thread that is commonly required for leather, and some of them are even allergic to bonded nylon/polyester thread (which is the bread & butter of machine stitching leather) because they're just simply tuned for other common types of thread used for fabrics. I guess you can use thin thread for everything, but a lot of your leather projects will come apart, leather is physically heavier than fabric and it applies a lot more pressure to the seams. The other thing you're probably not considering is that leather doesn't fold like fabric, you cant just iron it down flat.  You bend it.  You'll be surprised how easily flat & thin leather becomes 3 dimensional.  The thin bags belts you want to make have joinery where the leather overlaps or rolls over itself (plus reinforcing materials underneath so they don't stretch), and that gets very thick very quickly. And that's where the ability of the machine to "climb" is hugely important in leatherworking.  In fact you might not even be able to fit that section under the presser foot in a domestic.  I am also interested in that Singer "heavy duty" you linked above and there's another review video of someone reviewing it and using it.  You should see what he had to do to convince it to climb over the hem of a pair of jeans.  He did it in the end, but man, watching that completely erased any thought of using it on a leather project.

I know what you're thinking.  We've all been there: "surely there must be something one grade above my wife's domestic that can stitch leather, before I get to that >100kg monster".  No, there isn't, you need the monster.  Unless you're happy to go to a non-motorised machine, those are much more elegant, and some people hate them, some people love them.  I think what those people at the shops mean when they recommend the "heavy duty" plastic ones, is that the machine is able to stich a leather label on a pair of jeans.  But really, it's a machine for building fabric pants.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Spyros

[Spyros]

So now that you got some advice, why don't you buy it anyway and report back?  Get the $200 thing and try a few projects with thin leather.

[CrankAddict]

14 hours ago, Matt S said:

Out of interest, is your friend's wife a dealer in industrial or domestic/hobby Jukis? I believe that Juki keeps those two things very separate.
 

No, I'd refer to the man on the street as "the average man on the street". Compared with a furniture maker or cabinet maker he would know very little about wood. He might think of wood as the flat things Ikea furniture is made from. Nobody on this site looks down on people who use thin leather for watch straps, wallets or bags. However if you went on a woodworking forum and asked "what can a Proxxon FET actually do? I've seen videos of it buzzing through bits of 1/8" masonite" the experienced forumites there might say "maybe 3/4" of real wood with a struggle. Get a contractor saw at minimum to cut anything heavier, here's a few options.". That's what has happened in this thread but with leather.

Her store sells both.  They literally have a 2010q sitting next to a 1541 on the showroom floor.  She personally has a 1541 and a 555 at home along with a Janome domestic machine.  I went over and talked with her for nearly 2 hours yesterday and I am going to buy her 555 (which their Juki tech converted to a servo motor) for a couple hundred bucks.  It's an "I've got nothing to lose" price in my mind so I might as well try it.  Surely it can do more than the little Brother PS1000 I have.  And I'm fully aware the 555 is a "garment machine" not designed for heavy materials, doesn't have a walking foot, etc.  I'll see how far it can take me and if the need arises get a Cobra 26 EPS w/the flatbed add-on and be done with it.

The thing I'd push back on regarding your hobby store analogy is that leatherworker.net regularly showcases wallets and watch straps.  So discussing a sewing machine to accomplish such things on this forum seems "on brand".  If I were looking to marry two pieces of 0.05mm leather to create my own custom line of condoms then I could see the comparison to doll houses.  A cabinet maker is nowhere near the "miniature scale" end of the woodworking spectrum.  Nor is he able to deal with 6" thick beams.

In any case, I'm absolutely not "angry" and have enjoyed the input and conversation from you all.  Thank you.

Edited February 6, 2022 by CrankAddict