What can a Juki TL actually do?

[CrankAddict]

When I talk to Juki dealers, their employees rave about personally owning the TL2010Q and TL18QVP (Haruka).  They say the 2010 can handle garment leather no problem, and the 18 is even better due to the adjustable height presser foot.  I've seen some youtube demos of it buzzing right through thinner leather, so it must be able to do "something" but for all the Juki love around here I do not see either of these models mentioned even one time on this site, ever.  Clearly a 1541 or 1508 is a more capable industrial machine, but for a hobbyist making a few bags, wallets, watchstraps, etc for himself, where will these TL machines fall short?  I'm so new to sewing in general (and leatherwork for that matter) that I struggle to know what questions to ask or what specs to look at, so I'm hoping one of you might hold my hand a bit

Thanks!

[chrisash]

One new machine that has walking feet and is low cost about £650 in the UK including servo motor and table is the Jack H2 a step below the 1541 but better than the domestic machines 

When they talk about domestic machines sewing leather they forget to mention maybe two layers of 1.5mm chrome leather max and very thin veg tan

The 1541 is compound feed so walking feet plus needle feed so you are guaranteed equal spaced stitches 

 

[DrmCa]

Integrity is a scarce resource in the Earth's crust and atmosphere. My wife bought a serger from one such lady who also raved about owning one and being able to "do anything" with it. Then she ordered a 20+ lot of custom school uniforms from my wife, begged to release the finished product, but never paid. Household bottom-feed machines do not sew leather, period. This should be considered true and unless the user is very experienced and knows what they are doing on a very tight budget, they should not buy a household machine. But when such machine costs bloody $1200 it makes no sense at all to dump so much $$ into it. I would understand contemplating whether to buy or not to buy a $100 domestic machine but not that Juki.

[Wizcrafts]

5 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

When I talk to Juki dealers, their employees rave about personally owning the TL2010Q and TL18QVP (Haruka).  They say the 2010 can handle garment leather no problem, and the 18 is even better due to the adjustable height presser foot.  I've seen some youtube demos of it buzzing right through thinner leather, so it must be able to do "something" but for all the Juki love around here I do not see either of these models mentioned even one time on this site, ever.  Clearly a 1541 or 1508 is a more capable industrial machine, but for a hobbyist making a few bags, wallets, watchstraps, etc for himself, where will these TL machines fall short?  I'm so new to sewing in general (and leatherwork for that matter) that I struggle to know what questions to ask or what specs to look at, so I'm hoping one of you might hold my hand a bit

Thanks!

The reason those models haven't been discussed here is because this forum is dedicated to leather sewing machines. Those are not leather sewing machines! What few domestic sewing machines that are discussed here are usually somewhat able to sew 4 to 6 ounces of leather, if only under duress. Most of those are very old, cast iron body Singer machines with steel internal components. Oftentimes, these ancient machines can be found in antiques stores for a couple hundred bucks. If somebody toasts a $100 or $200 sewing machine they probably won't have a mental breakdown. Not so with a $1000+ Juki that was meant for light weight quilting and cotton garment work.

Beware machines offered as "industrial strength" or "industrial quality." A sewing machine is either industrial or domestic. The only portable sewing machine I consider semi-industrial is the Sailrite, with the upgraded Worker B motor and Monster II balance wheel. Even this can only sew 1/4 inch of veg-tan leather and should have the optional knurled feet added on instead of the standard feet with aggressive teeth..

There is a hand cranked leather stitcher made by Cowboy. It is the Cowboy Outlaw. It might possibly do what you are looking to do. It costs about the same as the upgraded Sailrite.

[CrankAddict]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

The reason those models haven't been discussed here is because this forum is dedicated to leather sewing machines. Those are not leather sewing machines! What few domestic sewing machines that are discussed here are usually somewhat able to sew 4 to 6 ounces of leather, if only under duress.

I get that the forum is dedicated to leather sewing machines, but does that imply the sewing machine has to be dedicated to leather?  People surely have used this class of higher quality domestic machine to do something with leather.  My question was what are the limits?  I have no desire to make anything out of 1/4" thick leather.  A watch strap starts to get too thick for my tastes at under 3mm.  I would have no delusions of being able to sew a heavy duty veg tan project with a smaller machine, but I just find it a bit hard to understand how it could be so unusable as to have never come up in discussion before.  In any case, here it is for the archives the next time some idiot like me searches

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, CrankAddict said:

I get that the forum is dedicated to leather sewing machines, but does that imply the sewing machine has to be dedicated to leather?

Basically, yes. The forum is Leatherworker.net and our requirements for sewing machines often far exceeds the capabilities of any domestic (household), quilting, or embroidery machine. There are other forums where those machines are discussed in detail. Even the auto upholstery and general upholstery trades have sub-forums dedicated to discussing sewing machines geared for their trade. Shoe makers and repairers have forums where they discuss machines and tools specific to those trades.

A lot of new members, as well as hand sewers want to machine sew fairly thin projects, like wallets, tote bags, watch straps, belts and some pouches. A little later they get known and somebody asks them if they can build a holster or sheath. That's when the sh_t hits the fan with their under powered, upholstery grade, or incorrect feed type industrial, or domestic sewing machine. This section of the LWN is where those folks come to ask and learn about the type of sewing machine they need to sew thick and/or dense leather with thick thread and big needles. Most, as it frequently turns out, end up needing to sew over 3/8 inch of veg-tan leather with thread sizes from #207 UP. Domestic machines usually max out with #69 thread and will be lucky to sew 3/16 inch of veg-tan leather. Upholstery grade machines usually are at their extreme high end sewing 3/8 inch with #138 thread.

This may help explain why nobody has discussed the Juki quilting machines you asked about. They are outside our typical scope of use. But, they are cute to look at! Kinda like a Singer Featherweight is cute to look at.

[kgg]

1 hour ago, CrankAddict said:

but I just find it a bit hard to understand how it could be so unusable as to have never come up in discussion before. 

Juki's are overall excellent quality machines but these are made for the domestic fabric side of the sewing hobby. These machines would not standup very long to the day in day out of a production setting. The max thread size for domestic sewing machines as well as these ends at V69 where as the industrial machines usually that is their minimum thread size. The machines you mention are drop feed machines being good at what they were intended for, fabric, and the very occasional sewing of very thin leather. If you need to sew multi layers of leather or even fabric you need at minimum a proper walking foot machine similar to a Juki 1181n or preferably better. Trying to in general compare a domestic sewing machine to an industrial is like trying to compare apples to oranges particularly the newer AL or plastic bodied machines. The older domestic Singers even though they were made for the domestic market would and have stood up better as they were constructed with better quality materials in a lot of cases then a lot of the now higher quality. 

Yes there are quite a number of people both the pro's and the hobbyists that have more then one machine each better or more capable at doing somethings then others. There is no one machine that will do everything you just got to figure out what machine will cover most of your bases. For thin fabric and 4 or 5 layers of 21 oz canvas or binding I like my Juki 1181N for those tasks.

kgg

 

[DrmCa]

8 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

People surely have used this class of higher quality domestic machine to do something with leather.

What makes you think so? It is quite a stretch. Probably they haven't because it does not make sense.

[CrankAddict]

1 hour ago, DrmCa said:

What makes you think so? It is quite a stretch. Probably they haven't because it does not make sense.

I've spoken to people directly who have used a 2010 to alter leather coats.  My friend's wife is a manager at a Juki dealer.  The premise that a Juki dealer would lie to me and say that a $999 machine can do something when they could easily try to sell me a machine that costs double just doesn't make any sense.  I'd have to believe they prefer less profit and unhappy customers?   Here is a video of a sewing machine repair shop doing a teardown and test on a Singer "Heavy Duty", including measuring motor current draw, while sewing as much leather as he could possibly jam under the presser foot.  He concludes it is a decent machine.  This thing sells for $199.  Just makes it hard to understand how the Japanese made "cute" Juki at 5x the cost will burst into flames as soon as I install the leather needle.

I see your signature mentions metal and woodworking.  Yes, it's nice to have a Mig and a Tig.  But you can make a lot of stuff with just a stick welder.  Yes, it's nice to have a bandsaw, miter saw, track saw, and table saw.  But before I had all that I was able to make some decent items using only a jobsite Dewalt table saw.  That seems like the Juki TL class to me.  Is it as capable as a Sawstop or Powermatic cabinet saw?  Obviously not.  But for its class of machine it is well built and with the right setup and blade I can definitely achieve good results.

 

8 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Basically, yes. The forum is Leatherworker.net and our requirements for sewing machines often far exceeds the capabilities of any domestic (household), quilting, or embroidery machine.

This section of the LWN is where those folks come to ask and learn about the type of sewing machine they need to sew thick and/or dense leather with thick thread and big needles. 

There are many, many posts by beginners and hobbyists on leatherworker.net.  I did not realize that the sewing machine subforum was intended for heavy duty, professional level leather workers only (perhaps the name should be "Industrial Leather Sewing Machines")?.  After further looking, I do see the sub-forum's description line talks about industrial machines, I had missed that previously.  Apologies, I will not post in here again

Edited February 4, 2022 by CrankAddict

[Matt S]

8 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

I get that the forum is dedicated to leather sewing machines, but does that imply the sewing machine has to be dedicated to leather?  People surely have used this class of higher quality domestic machine to do something with leather.  My question was what are the limits?  I have no desire to make anything out of 1/4" thick leather.  A watch strap starts to get too thick for my tastes at under 3mm. 

Not necessarily dedicated/designed for leather, but should certainly be suitable for leather. Many not-intended-for-leather machines are discussed here, such as the Singer 31K, which is/was mainly for tailors making and altering clothing or the Singer 132K, which was mostly intended for heavy canvas work e.g. tents. These are industrial machines that can be setup to work in certain slots of the wide spectrum of leather work. Equally not all industrial machines are well suited to leather of course, like most garment machines which need to be run at the multiple thousand RPMs in order to deliver oil to their moving parts.
 

1 hour ago, CrankAddict said:

There are many, many posts by beginners and hobbyists on leatherworker.net.  I did not realize that the sewing machine subforum was intended for heavy duty, professional level leather workers only (perhaps the name should be "Industrial Leather Sewing Machines")?.  After further looking, I do see the sub-forum's description line talks about industrial machines, I had missed that previously.  Apologies, I will not post in here again

Domestic machines are discussed here, within their own context. Many members (including me) are very keen that people reading posts don't take away or have reinforced inaccurate ideas of these machines' capabilities that unscrupulous or inexperienced salespeople often claim.

The most popularly discussed domestics here are mid-century or earlier ones with cast iron bodies, case hardened steel gears etc. Frankly they can take a pounding above their design envelope far better than what I have seen being offered on the domestic market for the past 50+ years. But then I'm not an expert, maybe there are better modern domestic or quilting machines that can do it without premature wear or breakdown. Doubt it though.

Some people make a hobby of taking older domestic machines and making them what they are well suited and were never intended to do. That's fine as an enjoyable activity in its own right rather than a reliable way of making a leather sewing machine and again has often been discussed here.
 

Quote

I would have no delusions of being able to sew a heavy duty veg tan project with a smaller machine, but I just find it a bit hard to understand how it could be so unusable as to have never come up in discussion before.  In any case, here it is for the archives the next time some idiot like me searches

Domestic machines have been discussed on these fora many times, but like many other topics it can be hard to look through the archives without knowing exactly the lucky search terms. Unfortunately the internal search has always been a little under-performing. I find that using a Google site search to bring up more useful results. I think there's been a reduction in posts here in the past couple years so perhaps the topic of domestic machines just hasn't come up much recently?

Limits for domestic sewing machines on leather are, generally speaking, 2-3mm total thickness of medium temper chrome tan or a bit less in veg tan leather unless very soft. Max thread size is probably v69/TKT40 using a size 18/nm110 leather point needle. Max stitch length is generally around 3mm or 8SPI and may be lower on leather as the maxed out tension, potentially grabby foot and not-very-positive feed may not grip the work enough to feed it the entire length of the feed stroke. As 99+% of these machines are drop-feed-only you are very likely to encounter layer slippage unless very carefully handled or your layers are glued together, and very likely feed-dog marks on the underside (which aren't the end of the world, but are usually less acceptable these days than 50+ years ago). There's also likely to be uneven/inconsistent stitch length and formation. Tension will be at or near its limit which will put extra strain on parts like the take-up arm and its driving parts, which will increase the likelihood of breaking or bending. You will probably also have the foot pressure cranked up to max to prevent lifting of the piece with the needle, which may inhibit the easy functioning of your machine.

Remember that sewing anything other than thin, soft garment leather will put stresses on a machine that domestics and most garment/cloth type machines simply weren't/aren't designed to handle. Primarily they occur at the point when driving the needle into the material, pulling tension on the thread, and pulling the needle free of the material after stitch lock. This will put strain on the moving and fixed parts that may result in premature wear, breakage or bending. Your motor may also be put under extra strain, as it takes a lot of force to drive the needle into the leather. Older machines (especially those fitted with a hand crank or treadle) are often found to be more useful as their have a heavier balance wheel which "stores" more energy to get through that through bit of the stitch cycle. I don't think I've seen any modern domestic with anything like that, except some Indian copies of 19th century domestics.