Wizcrafts

I had two concerns about the usefulness of the Boss to the OP. One is the limited throat depth which can probably be worked around by folding material up inside the machine (if it will fold up!). The other has to do with arthritis in his hands. Squeezing the pressor foot lift lever and pulling on the action lever could be stressful under these conditions. But, I assumed too much as they are not my hands.

And I thought we were all friends here on this forum. My mistake.

I have an opportunity to buy a flatbed Adler 204-374, locally. I thought it was a cylinder arm machine until the photos arrived and it turns out to be a flatbed. I can't find anything online describing that model. Can anybody here fill me in on the most important details about them? I need to know the capabilities for thread and needle sizes, needle system, bobbin style, thickness of leather it will sew, known issues, etc. Also, what a typical price would be for this machine (see photo). Thanks in advance.

You won't go wrong if you get either of those machines, or a Neel's machine. They all do serious sewing! And, the support is unequaled in the industry. When you are investing a couple of grand into a machine you definitely should be looking for follow-up support and advice. Bob, Steve and Ryan O'Neel all give that kind of support. Regarding that 201 you are thinking of buying, watch it run before plunking down the long-wheelbase ten. If smoke comes out of the wires or motor, head for the hills!

Did you not say something about arthritis in your hands or arms? Are you sure you want a hand operated sewing machine? Then again, they are ok for short runs, but how will you turn the holsters around to sew the different sides in a Tippman Boss? It only has a 6.5" throat.

A Singer 29 is made for boot and shoe repairs. What else it can do depends on the full model number, which you haven't told us. Try to find out the full model number. If it is a 29-4 it will sew about 1/4" reliably, with #69 nylon thread. The best stitch length will be around 6 to the inch, depending on how worn out the feed mechanism is. If it is a 29k something, depending on which model and arm length, it may be capable of sewing 5/16" with #138 thread. The long arm big bobbin patchers can handle #138 top and bottom, into leather 5/16" thick. Note, that a 29 anything is a shoe patcher and has top feed only, via teeth on the pressor foot. These teeth leave marks in soft leather or vegtan belts. Search this section of the forum and you will find several posts about various 29 models, including my own topic about a 29K172 long arm patcher. FWI, here are some photos of both long and short arm patchers. The short arm (black) is a 29-4, from around 1923 and the long arm (blue) is a 29K172, from when I don't know (sometime in the Mid-20th Century).

I meant to reply to this regarding the machine you were considering, but got carried away with the why-nots. I have a Singer 15-91, which is almost identical to a 201, in that they both use the same, built-in motor and gearing system. The only real difference I can see is the placement of the take-up and tensioning parts and thread guides. Since my 15-91 is virtually the same machine I can give you some insight into what it can and cannot sew. Here are some things I have learned about the capabilities of these machines. The maximum thickness under the pressor foot is no greater than 5/16", with the tension engaged. The foot can be lifted higher to remove or position the work, but it will not stitch reliably beyond that thickness. The machines use home sewing needles, which are usually limited to a maximum size of #18. I did find and buy some #20 needles for the 15-91, but they are rare. The thickest thread it can deal with is #69 bonded nylon. I had to reduce the bobbin tension way down to get the knots up into two layers of 8-9 oz belt leather, without over-tightening the top tension disk. Over-tightening the top tension disks causes the poor machine to bog down as it tries to pull up the thread. This stresses out the take-up arm, to the point I was concerned it might warp or break off. The little motor that is built into the body bogs down when trying to penetrate two layers of carving leather. I had to hand wheel a few stitches to get the motor to kick in and take over. The motor gets hot as it is forced to sew into leather. It finally smoked and I had to replace it, costing me 50 bucks for a rebuilt motor. It took a lot of time and some heavy screwdrivers and lots of hand pressure to disassemble the machine's read end to replace the motor. These machines are very old and have old wiring that tends to break when you dink with it. I have to rewire the power block on the back after replacing the motor. I had to screw the pressor foot tension spring all the way down to keep the leather from lifting up, when the needle came back up to form stitches. If the leather raised up with the foot, there were skipped stitches. The Singer 15- and 201- machines only use feed dogs to advance the material. With the pressor foot tightened all the way down it causes drag on the top layer of leather, or whatever material in being sewn. This drag causes alignment errors between layers and the stitches will vary in length. There is only 7" of clearance between the needle and the bottom of the body (on a 15-91). This makes it difficult to rotate thick leather as it is sewn around turns and shapes reaching that size. A pancake holster may well have a side that is over 7 inches long. There is about 2" additional clearance that tapers above the inside base. If you can fold the material up into that area you will be able to sew wider projects. If it is too heavy to fold up you will be limited to 7" inside the needlebar. Here is a photo of a Singer 15-91, which is similar to a 201 model: With these limitations in mind you should be able to make a more educated decision about what type of sewing machine to look for. Call Bob Kovar at Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines (Toledo, Ohio), at 866-362-7397, and ask what he has in the warehouse that will fit your needs. I am sure he has used machines that will get you going, at a price that a member of the human race can afford.

What Art is referring to as a leather sewing machine is a good point for newbies to stitching. A leather sewing machine is either a modified version of a standard machine, or a specially designed new model, which has a speed reduction motor system, a heavy hand wheel, beefed up moving parts and usually a large bobbin. The stress that carving or belt leather puts on a sewing machine will quickly wear out lesser machines. Home sewing machines cannot stand up to regular leather sewing on anything like a holster or thick belt. They may be able to sew such projects, but not with heavy thread and big needles and not for very long before they go out of wack. Such items as the take-up lever, the tension springs, thread guides, feed dogs, shuttle and oiling system are more critical for sewing thick material that has a lot of resistance. Those parts need to be replaced with custom made parts that are stronger, to handle the thicker thread and higher tensions needed to sew thread sizes up to #207 into vegtan leather that is 3/8" thick. The motors on real leather sewing machines are geared way down for slower speed with higher torque. This gives the operator better control over the speed as controlled by the foot pedal that connects to a clutch or servo motor. Clutch motors must be "feathered" by lightly engaging the clutch to sew slowly, a feat in itself, while servo motors are easier to control with foot pedal position (but are more expensive). You need a lot of penetrating power to push a number 23 needle through 3 layers of 8 oz vegtan holster leather. A 2" pulley on a 1/2 horsepower clutch motor, or a gear reduction servo motor is a must for slow speed piercing power. The faster you sew into hard leather the more heat you generate on the needle. I have seen smoke come from a needle when sewing a belt at about 10 stitches per second (a leather machine usually sews half that speed or less). A hot needle can melt nylon thread or fray polyester. It can scar the top of the leather as it makes the holes. If it gets red hot it will lose its temper and warp or deflect until it hits the shuttle, or bottom plate. As leather stitchers tend to use large needles, the holes in the bottom cover plate and feed dogs must be larger than on garment machines. Walking foot machines have elongated slots in the feed dog, allowing the needle to move forward and backward as it penetrates the material and feeds it the set stitch length. The adjustable pressure spring for the pressor feet is much heavier on a leather sewing machine that a garment machine. Walking foot machines have two springs, for the inner and outer feet. If you buy a decent leather machine from a reputable dealer you will get plenty of tips and assistance when you need it. If you buy on eBay or a private sale, you will be on your own to figure out how to adjust the machine. Some very good machines are available through dealers who are members of this forum. Neel's Saddlery, Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines and Cobra are members of our forum and have some of the best machines, anywhere, for sewing leather.

A Singer 111w155 walking foot machine will sew 3/8". It was the last one of the 111 series and about the best. It has no reverse lever though, so you will have to spin the work around to backstitch, or tie the last stitches together underneath and burn the knot with a lighter or soldering iron tip. A 111w155 can be found for a couple hundred dollars in most places that have upholstery shops. Look for one with a 1/2 hp motor. You will probably need to buy a smaller pulley for the motor if you do buy a used 111. The standard setup for upholstery is for high speed sewing that is useless on belt leather. It will run away from you and overheat the needle, burning the thread. If you can find a used Consew walking foot machine you are better off.

A Consew, Juki, Singer, Cobra, Cowboy, National, Neels, or Artisan large M bobbin, compound feed, walking foot, heavy tension spring machine, with a SewPro 500GR servo variable speed-reducer motor, on an industrial table and K-legs, capable of stitching 3/8" leather with up to #207 thread on top and #138 in the bobbin, using a Schmetz 135x16 #23 leatherpoint needle.

Yes, I am sure I have a 29K(172), not 29U. Look at the photo full size. You can read the model number through the hand wheel on the front. Thanks for the link to the manuals. They will come in handy. There are parts manuals and service manuals listed. Unfortunately, they don't have one for my 29K172.

I also bought that (SewPro 500GR) motor from Toledo Industrial Sewing machines and Bob Kovar. But, I didn't know about the adjustable brake. I need to back mine off some for more free movement before it engages. How is the brake adjusted?

Does anybody on this forum have a copy of the user's manual for a Singer 29K172 long arm, big bobbin patcher? PDF, original, or photocopy is fine. A download link for a pdf would be appreciated. If you have a hard copy please PM me for my address and your price.

You will certainly be able to buy #18 leatherpoint needles for that machine, but you may also need to drill the hole in the plate a bit larger, to clear the bigger needles. You will need to remove the burr from the opposite side from where the drill bit enters. I have some #20 needles that I found online, for a Singer 15-91 home machine. It allows me to sew #92 thread with ease. This is not my main machine, just an extra I had before I bought a walking foot machine.

Great suggestion Barra! I sometimes use one of my hand "clipper" style staplers to hold gussets in position. You can get these at Lowes, Home Hardware and office supply stores. Then, you may still be able to find a Neva Clog stapler on this forum, or on eBay. Most hand clippers will staple together about 8 ounces of chrome tanned leather, using 5/16" leg staples. Brands capable of stapling 1/8" of leather include Neva Clog and Arrow hand held clippers.

Johanna; I am a member of this forum, going as Wizcrafts. I just read your post regarding the web hosting deals. Do you have any room left or is the disk filled? I am not only a leathercrafter, but also a professional webmaster and website and computer security apostle. I have created and maintain several Apache/Linux .htaccess and iptables blocklists used to deny access to spammers, scammers and hackers. Due to the large amount of traffic this attracts I use a lot of data transfer (1 gig already 8 days into this month). My web sites and blog database currently use about a gig of disk space. I have several add-on and parked sites under one account, on LunarPages, and plan to change hosts to afford to stay online this coming year. My hosting with them is up for renewal by January 14, 2010. I purchase and maintain my domains through Dotster, not through web hosts. If you still have space you want to lease please get back to me with a price and the details about disk space, data transfer, databases, email POP and SMTP and forwarding account limits and details, which Perl, which PHP and if you allow full .htaccess overrides and Server Side Includes via XBitHack . I would be transferring everything myself, via FTP and setting up the parked and add-on domains and multiple POP3 email accounts. My primary domain is wizcrafts.net Thanks in advance for your consideration and for maintaining this great forum. Name: Bob Wiz Feinberg UserName: Wizcrafts IP Address: 68.62.28.12 Email Address: leatherworks@wizcrafts.net

I have a Japanese made "National" 306N walking foot machine, that is very similar to the Consew 206RB, which I use to sew up to 3/8" of vegtan or harness leather together, using #138 bonded nylon thread and a #22 leatherpoint needle (135x16). It routinely sews 5/16" of chrome-tan leather for hours at a time. I have also sewn a tad over 3/8" of harness leather with #T210 (v207) bonded nylon thread on the top and bottom, using a #24 leatherpoint needle, relaxed bobbin tension, increased top tension and a heavy duty pressor foot set to apply pressure evenly. This stitching must be done slowly, with a small pulley on the motor and a soft touch with your foot on the floor pedal. It helps to have a gear reduction servo motor, like the SewPro 500GR installed. You can get used machines like this, equipped with that very motor, from Bob Kovar, at Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines (866-362-7397).

Art; Thanks for the reply and your recommendation. Unfortunately, their prices are way beyond my means. Does anybody else know where I can buy American tanned bridle leather at a much more affordable price? Anybody have an extra back or large bend they will sell?

I have just gotten back into the leather belt and strap business after a dozen years doing other things. I am looking for the best price supplier for a black English Bridle leather back, or bend, in about 10-12 oz (~20 sq') weight. Alternately, a large side (25'+) will do, but I have no use for the belly. I need belt quality, not harness. I can only afford one at a time, right now, so wholesalers (like Weaver) are probably out for me. Your recommendations are appreciated, including leather vendors. I will be happy to purchase it from forum members who happen to have excess black bridle leather.

FYI: Bob Kovar has explained the purpose of the strange t-bar adjuster on the back side of the head of the patcher. If I turn the T so it is in the line of ascent of the takeup shaft mount, it will be struck by that part and the foot will be lifted off the material, with the needle up. This allows one to darn work. I tested it and was able to pull the material any length I wanted, between stitches. This would be useful for skipping Dee rings and buckles on straps and belts. The T bar has two heights on the two arms. One is the full diameter of the T arm. The other is half the diameter of the shaft. This lets you choose how much the pressor foot gets lifted when the needle is at its highest point. Here are some close-ups of the head assembly, showing the T-bar in various positions. The last photo shows the pressor foot lifted, with the needle up, but the pressure is still engaged in the upper tension disks, so you can jump-stitch around dee rings. And, here is a close-up shot of the custom made thread stand holder, that sits where the standard little spool rod usually resides. This is definitely more useful!

I just got home with a Singer 29K172 long arm, big bobbin patcher, complete with the cast iron treadle base. It has a few non-standard nuts on top and needs the bobbin winder rubber belt replaced and a new bobbin winder tension disk set. plus the screw that locks the rotation of the head. Other than that, she's ready to sew. The best part is that I only paid $125 for it. Anybody who has the replacement parts I need should give me a shout.

I built up the feed motion crank lever lobe on an old 29K something I had, because its maximum stitch length was too short. I may be doing it again on the 1920's 29-4 I have now. I used a bronze welding rod and a propane torch, with a pinpoint nozzle, to get the steel lobe red hot. I added a thin layer of bronze around the worn out steel lobe, then worked it into shape with a file and emery cloth, for the closest fit that allowed it to rotate 360 degrees. I finished it off on a buffing wheel and when I installed it into the bottom of the head, I got 5 stitches per inch, in 12 oz of leather.

Ginny; I just removed the leaf spring from my 29-4 patcher and laid it on a flat table, with the arch side up. I measured the highest point of the arch, and it is just barely over 3/8" above the table (1/4" max. on underside of arch). My tension is fully adjustable from very light to very heavy, with this amount of arch. My spring is 1/8" thick and 11 3/16" long, if that matters. The measurement was made with the lift adjuster removed.

You will need to move up to a #25 needle to sew #207 thread, on the top and bottom. Or, use #207 on top and #138 in the bobbin, with a #24 needle.

The leaf spring needs a small amount of arch to exert proper force on the pressor foot and lefter parts. When you find a metal worker ask him/her to reduce the arch by 50% to start. Try it and decide if it needs more or less reduction. BTW: the spring normally is installed with the arched side up. You adjust the pressure with the big screw on top of the spring, towards the back. Thread tension If the bobbin spring is tightened all the way and the thread is feeding under it, then through the tiny output hole and there is decent tension when you pull on the thread, then the top should be inspected to see if the thread is twisting around any obstacles. The thread should feed smoothly and totally freely off the spool, through the oil pot, around in inside the top tension discs, through a little loop, up to the takeup arm, down the snout, into the left side of the needle. Do not thread the top thread through the secondary tension discs unless it is really needed. With the bobbin thread properly adjusted to a mild tightness, with smooth feeding, the top thread should have a little more tension when pulled just before the needle. If there is a big difference in the top tension, look to find out what is squeezing the thread so tight. If the thread cone is on the spindle on the top-rear of the machine, get it out of there. Put the thread behind the read quarters on top of the shelf on the back of the machine. Feed it up, from behind the trolley, around the spindle, and on to the thread path. I do this and it relieves all top thread problems. I even feed the thread coming off the cone into the thumb hole in the threading rod, which I have stuck securely into the trolley, with the hole sticking out in the back, on the back of the trolley. This places it just ahead of a cone of thread sitting on the back "shelf" of the body of the machine. If the bobbin is too tight the stitches will be knotted under the work. If the top is jamming the stitch knots will sit on top. If the spring in the upper tension adjuster is too heavy it will cause upper tension problems. Compare that spring to the one on the front of the machine and use the lighter spring on top, if it will fit.