bruce johnson

Regis, I bought the whole setup for under $200. Some parts are welded and some are bolted. Originally I wanted a benchtop, and a guy on another list sent me pics of his. He was one that suggested the 20 ton jack, he had broken smaller jacks. I left the pics with an ag welding shop a couple years ago. They stayed busy and never got to it for a while. Finally the price of steel got too high combined with their labor to make it viable to build. Mine came from a local industrial supplier. It is sturdier than HF and the ram is straight. Some of the Harbor Freight 20 tons had the ram welded on crooked. The cold roll steel plates are 1" thick. A guy could use thinner I think. I got them from the scrap pile at a local steel yard. They cost me about $30 for the bottom and three sizes of tops. They will rust and also transfer iron marks,so I am pretty careful about handling them with one hand and the leather with the other to avoid iron marks later. Tangent, I just cut the molds from scraps of HDPE or LDPE with a jigsaw. I screw them together with drywall screws. They can be smoothed up on a belt sander. I can make these up faster than I can fight a molded piece over a block. You need to allow for the planned leather thinkness in the kerf. I usually cut the female part slightly oversized. I then true up the male part, widen the gap, and knock off the square edge on a belt sander. They don't have to be pretty, just smooth. Dremels also will clean up a sharp edge.

Like Tangent, I didn't attach the upper plate to the ram. I also use mine to press molded things with. I attached a pic of a cell phone case front mold. I mold the leather with the ram just on the male portion of the mold first. Then I put a bigger piece over the whole thing and press again. The second pressing really sharpens up the angle and flattens the lip for sewing. When the piece has lost enough moisture to stamp, I back it up with the male portion of the mold. I make the molds out of scraps of cutting boards. The HDPE and LDPE both work up nicely with woodworking tools. I have made cell phone cases for several sizes, bottle pocket bottoms for medicine bags, and tunnel loops for cinches. I also attached a pic of how mine is set up. I use a piece of HDPE cutting board to click against. Once you have clicked through the first one, you only need to let off the pressure enough to raise it slightly more than the leather thickness. Sldie it out, slide another in, and go on. Usually 5-6 strokes will cut through heavy skirting, so it goes pretty fast. I have a few pieces of cold roll scraps to cover the different size dies I have. You really want to cover as much (and probably all) of the die to prevent bending it.

Kevin, I started opening up the pictures you have posted. By the time I got to the second one, I knew you were on the "short list", and pretty sure I knew who you were. The cantle concho cinched it. Your work is as good as the other pieces of your work I have seen. Still living around Faith? We met in Sheridan two years ago and last year. One night was rather "festive" (looking back, maybe they all were). We didn't make it this year, but plan to be back next year. Glad to have you here.

Barra, This is another one of "those" questions. One guy I talked about this with had an interesting point. We put all the back to front on one side, the front-to-front folks on the other and have a tug of war. Neither side would end up in the mud, the sides would be equal and we would quit and get a beer after 5 minutes. What I do right now. This is all subject to change because I have dang sure rethought and changed some of what I do based on this forum's discussions (like I will probably not use AZ bars except under duress, etc.). I put the back end of the skirts toward the neck of the sheep. I put the top edge of the skirts (bar area) in the middle of the woolskin. Reason for the latter - I used to put the bottom edge of the skirts together in the middle of the woolskin. Sat in a round-table and one guy offered that he put the tops in the middle. The wool is slightly denser in the middle, and the bar area receives more pressure than the skirt edges. Just lasts a while longer and makes more sense to me now. Reason for putting the rear of the skirts to the front of the woolskin. The wool lays to the back. If it is facing forward, it keeps the saddle blankets from sliding back. I was taught to saddle a horse by my grandfather. We put the saddle on further forward than we want it, and slide it back into place. This will (1) lay down wrinkles in the saddle blanket (2) slide the saddle back into the place it naturally wants to stay (3) lay the wool down, because the saddlemakers always put the wool on so they lay down when you slide them back, it bunches and clumps when you slide it forward (4) never argue with your grandfather. So does it matter after two months when the wool is more mashed down. What about the guys who use the wool on synthetic backing on synthetic fleece? Either should be non-directional. Does it matter if you use pads instead blankets? Not to hijack this thread, but we might as well include the other elephant in the living room we haven't discussed - Barge them on or rubber cement??

Lee, I got it when I joined a couple years ago. They send updates every so often. For those who don't know, it is a "shop manual" for saddlemakers. It lists average time involved for repairs, estimates for materials, and then charges based on different labor rates. The principles are pretty much based on Bob Brenner's book "How to Establish Prices for the Saddle Maker or Leather Worker". It is usually advertised in the classifieds of LCSJ and SHopTalk. I like that book. When I first got my business license, I got free access to a small business adviser. It was a program similar to the Service Corps of Retired Executives. I got that book a while later, and showed it to my advisor. He was pretty impressed with it, and ended up and got a copy for his library. The principles apply to a lot of different small businesses. If you don't get hung up on the numbers right away and apply the principles, it is good. The Green Book has taken the formulas and put in the numbers for you. That said, I don't use the Green Book all that much.

Greg, Interesting on the Hamley. The next restore project saddle I have is a Hamley Assoc. with the paperwork from 1928. On some of these restorations, they have been redone somewhere along the line, and may not be "original" like some people assume. I just finished my great-grandfather's saddle this morning. It had Al-Ray buckles on it, but the unused holes were tight ovals like for laced leathers. I laced it back. I would like to see a pic of the 18" splitter sometime. Is it a band-knife or a crank through? I have 8" and 10" Chase patterns and thought I was in tall feed. Good point about bar edge thicknesses too. On the calf-roping saddles, these bars are monstrously thick. That is the reason for the double layer of plugs. In reality, these skirts are usually not blocked up very high and the bar tips are pocketed by the sewn down riggings to cover that up, so that kind of negates the benefits of the double plugs. Some of the plugs are doubled all the way to the bars, and others have one layer all the way and one partial. I have seen it vary from one side to the other. They are selling what you see on the saddle, not the rest.

I have done quite a few restorations and relines lately, and the saddlemaking DVDs have some interesting views on plugging. I figure this thread could go to how much do you plug (edges or up to the bars), where (all the way around or front and back), do you oil the plugs, splices or one piece, do you case and pound them out to take out the curling tendency ("hammer-jacking"), How heavy, etc. On some of the recent restorations I started paying attention, especially after seeing Dale Harwood's DVD where he splits down his plugs (I think he said that anyway). I have found the older saddles - my great grandfather's 1934 Duhamel, an older Gibson from Redmond Ore, and a no-name oldie all had plugs that gauged about 8 oz. Age may have tightened these some. I contrast that with some of the Texas calf roping saddles that have had as many as two layers of plugs. Of course the rear jockeys and seat jockeys were doubled at the edges too, and the tore out front rigging on one was the flankiest piece 9 oz scrap they could find. Sooo, what does everybody do on plugs?

I use the wire brushes they sell at Harbor Freight or the welding suppliers. They cost about $1.50.

Nick, I had a friend with one of the round platen hand operated clickers Weavers (and I think Leather Factory) used to sell. The handle seemed about 3 feet long, and was a headknocker. I talked to a few guys who have the Mach III, which is probably what you are talking about. They cost around $1100 or a bit more. One guy liked his for a pair of spur straps, but much bigger than that was a "push". They do about the equivalent of 5 tons over an area about the size of a sheet of paper. He also said the heavier leather was more effort, even with smaller dies. They are a real precision item, and easy to use and adjust from reports. I looked into the pneumatic ones. The satisfied customer they referred me to offered to sell me his smaller one. He said he could use his shop press faster on skirting leather and using two dies, than the pneumatic. His bigger pneumatic one was good for the heavier leather and bigger dies. I think someone who makes holsters (?) mentioned the same experience on this forum somewhere. On the advice of a guy I talked to, I got a 20 ton shop press from a local industrial supplier (under $200). Better quality and about the same cost as Harbor Freight. Cost difference for the 20 ton vs. lesser capacity was negligible. I put a piece of cold roll steel scrap on the rails. I lay a piece of HDPE cutting board over that, the leather. the die. I then lay another piece of cold roll to cover the die and spread the force of the ram. Jack it down and it really does "click" when it goes through. You only have to raise it up enough to slide out the die and leather, reset with another piece, and go on. I can cycle through pretty quick. Obviously this is not a production setup, but I had at least $900 in savings in my pocket before I bought the first die. It has enabled me to buy more dies to make life easier with less investment. I use mine for spur straps, latigo and cinch carriers, that kind of stuff. My wife does coasters and key fobs (buckle end of spur straps). I have dies from Texas Custom Dies and would not hesitate to recommend them. I also have some off-the-rack ones from Big Sky that I got off ebay and at a show, they are good too.

Aaron, I am on a few other forums and lists, and actually I find this one easier with several categories. On some of the others, the posts are in 4 or 5 general categories. The problem is over time that these get to be very lengthy. A 2 or 3 post discussion of clickers is in the middle of mostly sewing machines, things like that. On one the posts are archived off in groups of 50. When you have to go back to look something up, it is unwieldy. Likewise, most new members never go back to post to a thread they may have something to contribute to. Another concern is that some only show the most recent posts for the last month, something like that. I think the format we have is easier. It is possible for someone new to go back and add to posts. I agree that the categories are not perfect and there is overlap in most anything we do. I think that your saddle question could go in several categories. My concern would be more to get it into one, rather than worry about where it fits exactly. The interested people will find it. My thoughts would be if it is a general question on handsewing, I would put it in the sewing section. If you are concerned about a specific way of restoring the saddle and stitching for either display or use, then probably the saddle restoration section. The big thing I like about this forum deal is that there is no email involved unless I choose it (and I don't). Other forums get me up to 75 emails a day, often on things, though interesting, don't pertain to my work. Here I can go to what I want to see first, then look at the rest at my leisure. I guess I have never used the "recent posts" thing.

Pete, I have been using and selling a few of the "roper special" cinches from Steve Bork. I like them, have worked for me, and see no reason to switch. They are double strung and I am not 100% sure how many strings they have. I have also used the original Cowboy Tack cinches when Dennis Moreland had it, they were double strung also. I am a mohair cinch fan, and haven't had problems with them.

Thanks for posting this Greg. Pretty small group of guys who have not owned at least one King rope in their lifetime, and fewer still who didn't have a "King's Ropes" cap at one time. Not many people who pick up a knife have not been influenced on some level by Don King. I have been fortunate to talk with Don a few times. Favorite memory- Last year at the show, We spent Thurs afternoon going through the museum (again). A lot of guys were huddled around Jim Jackson's bench watching him tool a checkbook. Don was standing a ways away by himself. My wife (not known for being non-conversational) walked up to Don and said "Mr. King, You will be busy later on, but I just want to thank you in advance for the good time I am going to have at your party tonight". Work stopped and about 10 guys turned around. Don got that twinkle in his eye and laughed. They talked for about 15 minutes. Saturday night, Don was still laughing when he saw us and decided our glasses were low. Although I haven't switched totally to tequila/grapefruit juice, thank you Don. It is a loss that you are gone, but a bigger gain that you were here.

Azmal and Grumpy, We have that thread regarding our saddle shop layouts in the Saddles and Tack subforum. It is in the general saddlery discussion section and the topic is "workshop tips and layout". Some good ideas there. Leatherwork is leatherwork, we just have more tools, hardware, and bigger machines.

I have seen it all the way through once, and have started back through again. I am learning as much or more the second time. The first time I was listening and watching what he was talking about. The second time I am watching, I see him doing little things he was not talking about that were slick. I see things he had done and not talked about. This definitely needs to be seen a few times. You don't have to shuck many oysters to find the pearls here. Example - last night I cranked on the tightest mulehide wrap I have ever done. It required a lot less muscle and time than any way I had done it before. I couldn't bring up even a bubble with the choke strap. Today I can't pick an edge.

Dai, I use pretty greasy latigo, so not much bonds mine all that well. I use Barge. My neighbor uses Masters All Purpose, and says it bonds latigo better. I don't think I would trust any cement to bond latigo together reliably without stitches for long. Masters is supposed to tack up quicker, but doesn't reactivate with heat like Barge. There are some latigos that are drier than equestrian latigo. They might glue up better. Regarding how to get the best bond. Apply to both surfaces, let tack up to almost dry or dry and stick together. The old rule was to never stick a shiny glue surfaces, make sure it is dry. Some people use "primer" coat of thinner cement first, than add a second coat of slightly thicker. To firm up the bond apply pressure - hammer, press, slicker, etc. However, there are some applications for using wet cement (another Rule given to me - always use wet cement to bond wet leather) for things you want to move into position. Dry cement will peel off wet leather sometimes. These bonds can take a few days to cure. All this is subject to change, because all the cements are being reformulated as we speak. The new formulas are going to separate and will need to be shaken or stirred prior to and during use. Whether they will behave the same remains to be seen.

Matthew, I use a notebook. I buy a good quality notebook from the office suppliers and drill out the rivets and use the binder clip. I cut the plastic cover off the stiffeners and reuse them for my notebooks. You can sand or bevel the edges slightly so they don't leave a stair-step bump at the edges.

Larry, Hello and welcome. I am about 70 miles S of Sacramento in Oakdale. Lots of gunleather folks here. If you want to make a special seat for a motorcycle patrolman, you are really at the right place. Shout away with questions, and feel free to go back and add to any previous threads you have questions or advice about.

Major, The floral book is excellent. I have no hesitation in recommending it.

Major, Make that two :ranting: . I bought the flower book at the last guild meeting. It is a dandy reference and the line drawings of the flowers pictured are directly useable as tracing patterns. Yep, that is the same book. We will consider it a donation and support for the company that taught leatherworking to the world and go on, heh buddy.

Susan, Sorry for the confusion. I was thinking without looking. On the thread regarding the Nikkel's trees, David was telling Rod that if Rod changed the bar patterns by incorporating twist into Rod's patterns, he could stabilize the rear of the saddle during roping. Sorry about that to all involved. I thought I saw somewhere that David does make ranch saddles. On his website he shows a Wade with a mulehide wrapped horn. That is where I got idea of his saddles being roped out of. The site also lists a rope strap as an option.

Alan, You bring up a point that I was confusing, and am still confused on. I am referring to any type rigging not just a double dropped dee ring. I think I understand the lines of force behind the drop plate, and understand what you are saying about the double rigged with no counterbalance. About the only dropped dees I do now are on some straight roping saddles. What my confusion is (and thanks for clarifying it) , wouldn't the back cinch hanging straight down in conjunction with a triangular front rigging (plate) do a better job than the same rigging with the back cinch angling forward and hobbled to the front cinch, as shown in Jane's picture. Kind of a long winded question, but only way I can think of it. Is there a counterbalance strap on the front ring? Or is the back cinch the counterbalance strap and the third leg of the triangle? I guess I was assuming that there was a counterbalance already there. If so, then the back cinch is duplicating the same or similar function. Another factor I see with hobbling the back cinch forward. My calf-roping back cinches run 6-8" wide in the belly. If I angled them forward, I would only have the front edge hitting the horse. Even with a 3" back cinch, unless it is contoured, or the buckles hung off square, it probably wouldn't have full contact either. Also type of roping, how broke the horse is, how big the wreck is gonna be, and is the clock running all factor into how tight you are going to get and how fast. I know my horn on a low TM tree with me forward, hanging off the right side, or if I was younger or any good, already off, is creating more torque when a 230# calf hits the end. It is different cranking down on a #4 sitting on a Bowman or Olin Young on the heels of a quick steer turned, and you are sitting square and back when everything comes tight. Different yet heeling calves at a walk or trot in a branding pen and slipping on a mulehide post. These also affect what kind of back cinch, how tight the back cinch is pulled, and how long it stays pulled. The confusion may also lie in that David's trees are designed to sit in a different place than what I am used to using/seeing. Maybe with his trees being more forward, and rigged further back, they are more stable cinched as shown, and they will keep the bar fronts off the shoulder blades when the horn would be torqued.

Ashley, Good looking work. Meticulous basket stamping, and good finish. Like Luke, I am curious what you used for the antique and finish. With all this stuff changing, it is going to take some time to get the effects we are looking for with the reformulated stuff.

Mulefool, Thanks for the compliment, I like it too. It was done by my neighbor and not me. I am in a saddlemaker rich area. Probably at least 30 people within 40 miles making saddles on some level. This was a trophy saddle that I bought from my sister-in-law and resold. There was other swivel knife scrollwork on it that was good too. The cuts really dressed up this roughout. If I didn't get my price, it was going into my tackroom. I had an email from someone asking me how much wedge to cut to raise the rear of the skirts. I checked my pattern, it has a scant 3/8" wedge from 3-1/2" in to the back edge. It can sure be overdone. I have seen some saddles that look almost like rockers. The back of the skirts sit 2" off the pads. Just as a point of reference. I appreciate the emails, but generally if you have a question, several others do also. Don't be shy, post it to the forum and everyone can have input and benefit from the answers. Don't be afraid to start a new topic, and for sure, don't hesitate to go back and post in old topics. We won't all agree, and sure don't all do anything the same way. I just want to wake up smarter tomorrow, and this group will help.

David. Looking at your saddles shown by Jane in post 15 and 16 in this thread. Is this girth placed in the area you are referring to the "girth channel"? If it is not, would you place it forward or back from here? Is the rear cinch supposed to be hobbled this close to the front cinch? Looks like it would tend to catch spurs, I have enough spur tracks on my back cinches as it is. LOL. I think you mentioned somewhere that your saddles stay in place for roping. Would you rope with this rigging setup? Does the pull and vectors you are talking about keep the backend of this saddle down when roped out of, and out of the shoulders? Obviously Jane is not riding a roping/ranching saddle, but how do you (or do you) change the rigging for the ranch horse? Obviously, most of us don't cinch one like this, which the reason for these questions. I am just having trouble figuring how splitting the triangle for a saddle that the horn is used for more than decoration is holding things as or more securely than both cinches sitting vertically and holding both ends of the tree down.

I have had a couple of emails from folks not understanding what we are talking about. I have attached some pictures to help illustrate. On the roughout, these skirts are laced all the way to the back. One problem with doing this. If the skirts do not exactly line up at the rear, the difference of even 1/16 of an inch is noticable. On mine I cut the rear corners at about a 1" or little better radius on all my skirts whether they are square or rounded. This gives a bit of relief, and allows a small side to side difference from setting the skirts to not be as noticable. The tooled saddle is one of mine, actually my wife's. The skirts are a bit shorter than usual, but they are laced back to the start of the curve. The rear jockeys cover them up, as Greg described. On longer skirts, the non-laced areas would show more.