bruce johnson

Greg, Good point about the rigging position on the bronc saddles too. I understand about the double cut weakening the bars and the reason for the Arizona bars, especially on the cutting reining saddles with thinner bars. Playing the devil's advocate here for a second. Denise and Rod posted a pic in the tree section of some skirts off a saddle with Arizona bars. There was a definite groove worn in the skirts at the back edge of the stirrup leather. There was no wear or rubbing on the skirts behind that for a moderate distance. Obviously the stirrup leather edge was putting pressure on, and the middle of the bar was bridging enough to not provide much support. Reason enough for me to rethink bar patterns. I know that a lot of swell forks with Arizona bars are cowboying and roping saddles. My rambling brain is thinking these horses would be happier with some support there, either thicker bars built into the rocker for less bridging and a double stirrup slot or a shim on a reline when it is seen? The increased bar thickness would not raise the rider up any more than is already there, it would fill in down below.

Greg, Yes, raising the front up does change the pitch and potentially could cause the rear pads to dig in. This particular tree was pretty flared, and still sitting the tree on my horse with the skirts off and the shims laid in under was not pointed into the horse. That 5/8" or so we raised it really didn't change the back end all that much. I am not sure that it really made a huge difference in how the saddle would ride that much anyway. But, when you feel like your gear is not quite what you think you want, it matters in your head. Two Coke cup piece thicknesses under one stirrup pin as an adjuster, that sort of thing. This saddle was pretty new and not spread, and this kid was #16. He left Cow Palace (before they changed it to a spring rodeo) placing on one, and was on his way to Brookings SD, Florida, and KC. He had a skinny horse in Brookings, and was hungry. Good kid, missed the finals that year, but has made it since. I am still not sure how gray an area he was in rule-wise. The book really doesn't address it, and the judges I have talked to since have said they probably wouldn't even notice. The rules mainly address the hull. On another note, I had an email from a guy who only uses 2-1/2" leathers with AZ bars to lessen the lump that a 3" leather extending a little further back could make. He uses 3" leathers on double slotted bars. I can see the logic there, although I am still curious if anyone is shimming the bar bottoms to any extent? Don't be afraid to post directly, folks.

I am rural at home, DSL not available (irony is the guy who owns the place we rent developed bringing DSL and high speed to the masses). I did not want to sink any hardware into anntenas, satellite, or other means and expenses on a rental place. I was chunking along on dial-up speeds on the laptop from 34-42 kbps were average. The PC would top out at 26.4. A few days ago it was brought to my attention that cellular high speed is available. Basically it is either an aircard or USB plug-in that enables high speed wherever there is a cellular signal. I went with Verizon, and the speeds are dramatic. Down load rates of 50 and more, where it used to be 4. I don't need to go to coffee shops or fast food to get high speed. Pretty handy, and definitely cool. Might be an option for those on the go, or situations similar to mine.

Greg's post brings up another question. I have been in the roundtables, informal get-togethers, and fitting classes where someone mentions shimming trees on the bottom to improve fit. In Greg's example of the AZ bars, a shim full thickness at the back of the stirrup leather and skived to taper back from there to fill in bridging. Any thoughts? Anybody doing it? I have done a similar but not quite the same thing on a bronc saddle. This guy had me install two skived plugs in the front of the skirts under the front barpad area. He wanted his second saddle to sit higher on narrower or low fronted horses. Basically I took two full thickness pieces and skived them at the edges , tapered back behind the pad area a bit. Sewed them in between the woolskin and the skirts, and not obvious from looking. It didn't change the specs on the saddle, since we were mostly raising up and not changing where the gullet width is measured.

Johanna, Thanks for getting this straightened out. Greg, It was me who messed up the move, and lost the name. To err is human, to really screw things up requires Bruce Johnson and a computer. *Johanna imagines the mayhem that would occur if she were to get on the back of a real horse...and thinks computers are easy compared to what Bruce does...

Julie, Buy big. I would recommend a Pro 2000 and make a flat bed table for it. I can sew a double layer of skirting and 1" woolskins on mine. I do a business card holder that is 3 oz. I don't know how small a thread it will take, needle size is the factor, but I use down to #207 in mine sometimes. You can buy several different feet and plates. I bought the "package". Some I use all the time, and others have never been used. Some day they might be just what I need.

Denise, Second try, the computer ate my homework on the first reply. We are getting closer! What I don't like is that this particular treemaker's trees had the eqivalent of the the oval lifted straight up. This made a smaller footprint on the bars, and brought the cantle corners closer together in front of the cantle face. I think they were probably cupped out a little more at the lower corners of the face, and that made the ridge that bites. Your tree I have along with my others are flatter in the lower corners and blend smoothly into the bars. Regarding the seats. I make the same basic seat on about all of them. I have had one request for and made a ridgepole seat from swell to cantle. I like to be able to slightly slouch. I sit like that in a chair, in the truck, and on a bench. Say I was sittling in a straigh back kitchen chair. I shove my fist in where the seat meets the back. That is the feel I want. Much like using a wedge or rolled up towel on an old Chevy truck seat. I put that same feel in at the cantle/bar angle and taper it up the face of the cantle. I want that to roll my pelvis underneath me. That is what sits me deeper when a horse stops and the backend drops. It slides me down and deeper if the backend comes up. When I am just sitting in a saddle, I want about 3 fingers clearance from my back to the top of the cantle. I want that same measurement when I am done with my groundwork. That cantle will get closer with the rolling of a lope, but hopefully I am sitting quiet and everything else is moving around me. I put the low spot near the middle of the seat. (Your tree is just right for that BTW). I have done a lot of things on horse, but none spectacularly. I rode pleasure horses as a kid, reined, roped, bridle horses, cut, and started a lot of colts. I found I did the best when I stayed on them and out of their way and that was usually toward the middle. If I needed to get back, it was usually on a cutter sucking back under me, and that is what pushing on the horn is for. I am attaching pics of three different saddles with different purposes, but the same basic seat geometry. My calf roping saddle is built on a 15" tree. The roughout is kind of an all around cowhorse saddle - roping/ cutting/reining. The inlaid seat saddle is my wife's 16". She just rides for now, until we figure out what her horse wants to do for a living (I think he will make a good one). These saddles all pretty well keep you where you need to be.

Spencer, Regarding the lower priced machines that can do heavy duty. The Adler cost me about $2200 used from Ferdco, and after 5 years, I sold it for that through their swap-board. I used it for the cost of one bent feed dog. Quality and reputation will hold their value. There are several clones of the Juki 441 that the Pro 2000 is based on. Cowboy, Sewmo, etc. are out there, along with Artisan selling two long arm clones at two different prices. Several sellers have the shorter armed versions as well. Personally, I don't see the appeal of the short arm machines other than price. I have folded up enough chaps and saddle blankets to stuff them through on a narrow throat machine. The difference with all these machines is service. Not to sound smart, but it sounds like you haven't used a heavy stitcher before. It is a given you will have a problem, everyone does. That is when you find out who has fire and who has smoke in the service dept. I broke a needle on the Adler. In doing that, it also bent the lower feed dog and was "short-stitching". The Ferdco service guy was on the phone with me for an hour while he diagnosed the problem through me taking it apart. When I got the new feed dog, he offered to call me at 5:00 am my time so I could put it on and he could talk me through retiming it if needed, before I had to leave for work. They have been that helpful to me whenever I have called them. The Pro 2000 is supposed to have some parts redone or replaced from the original Juki to make it more reliable and even stitching. I just know I really have to try to make it skip a stitch. "Ferd" of Ferdco original fame retooled and beefed up a lot of the original machines into heavy stitchers or machines dedicated to sewing a specific application. The servo motors give very good speed control and good punch power at low speeds. I can sew from 1 stitch every 2 seconds to running down an edge. I would not go back to a clutch motor again. I like the cylinder arm for a lot of things. I can sew curved things on the curve. It allows me to sew gussets into bags and planners from the outside. On a flat bed you would have to sew them from the inside. I made a flat bed for my 2000 with a cut-out for the cylinder arm and adjustable legs (folding table legs with different length of PVC pipe extensions that slip over the legs). This supports awkward or heavy things like saddle pads and blankets. The smallest thread I use in the 2000 is #207, not sure how small it will go. I like the flat bed for sewing flatgoods and strap work. I have used up to #207. The flat bed is nice to do chaps, checkbooks, wallets, belts, spur straps, stuff like that. My wife is less intimidated by the flat bed machine. If I was buying one machine and needed to do saddle work, it would be a reputation cylinder arm and I would make a good sized flatbed for it. Then if the trend is there in your business, get a second machine later, and that should probably be the flat bed then. My thoughts.

Spencer, I have the Ferdco 1245, and Greg used the right word - awesome. I have had mine since December. I don't think it has skipped a stitch yet. It will handle up to #207 thread handily. I have used down to #92 thread as well, but usually run 138 through it. It will do heavy strap, they say up to a half inch I think. It is not a saddle machine. I have Ferdco's Pro 2000 also. It is a good solid saddle sticthing machine, and pretty hard to get it to skip too. I think I have had it a couple years. Between the two machines and servo motors on both, I have all the firepower I think I need for sewing. As far as Ferdco. I started off with a used Adler 205-64 from them. I used it for 5 years and they helped me sell it for what I paid for it. They have always been very good for advice on machines, maintenance, and supplies. I have tried to deal with other sellers at times, but Ferdco has done the best by me.

In an effort to keep the cantle thread more focused on cantles, I am opening up this thread to the differences between arena saddles for a specific purpose vs. long-day riding saddles. Obviously the long day saddles have to be able to keep the horse going for all day. The arena saddles may be for the horse who is ridden for a shorter time frame - warm up and 10 minutes of cutting training on cattle, long trot and patterning on barrels, then one run at speed, loping 5 laps then running 8 steers, etc. The arena saddles may have different needs (like the room to round up the back or stop deep) that the guy out gathering and moving cattle may not need or want. One has to provide support, the other needs to not get in the way for the horse first and the rider second. I think we can be general enough to focus on any aspect from trees to seats in this thread.

Denise, That is "kind of" what I was referring to at the cantle corners. I had occasion to ride a saddle that the cantle points dug in a little right below the pockets if I got rocked back or reached back with my leg. It was on a fairly high cantle, 5" or so. It got to be fairly obnoxious by the end of the day. A few months later I talked to the guy who built the saddle. Asked him who made the tree (so I would be forewarned). A few factors were at play. I will preface this by saying I know little about making cantles. Apparently this tree maker had one cantle "pattern" and so the bottom was shortened to make the various heights. It had an oval profile from the front. As the height increased, the oval was "raised". This made a pretty good undercut at the corner instead of blending into the bars. This saddlemaker thought it was a plus, because he could really tuck the seat jockey ear up in there and it made a tight clean look. The issue was the point of the cantle was running around that oval and made a ridge where it started to curve around and went up the bar. I like to have that point blended in and not continue forward. Some better groundwork could have filled that in a bit too. As far as test fitting seat. I had a guy I respect tell me he learned to test fit by stripping down to underwear, and sat in the groundseat for a while. If he was pretty comfortable at the end, he thought it was probably going to be alright. When he got his shop in town, he didn't use that method anymore. LOL. As far as seatbuilding in the cantle area, I want to slouch back. I leave the angle pretty full in the center. That way the first thing that hits is down low and kicks the bottom of your pelvis forward relative to the top. It rolls your butt up underneath you, rather than getting hit up higher and and kicking the top of your pelvis forward and arching your back. If the back end comes up, you are forced forward and down if your back is "slouched" or curved back. If your back is arched, everything stiffens and it forces you up and out. The low spot in front of the cantle on the bars makes that kind of a seat easier to build. A trainer I worked for used to say, "sit on your pockets". When they figured that out, it changed to "sit on your belt loops". An exaggeration, but worked. Greg, Interesting point about the arena saddle vs. cowboying saddle. I had asked that question a while back on another thread, may have even been another list. I had been told that same thing about having a little clearance for the horse that really rounds up. It makes sense to me. I think probably front and back pad shapes and angles play a significant part in fitting these horses. They round up when stopping and turning, but then may hollow out when they jump out and go across the pen. Those pads have to bear weight without digging in. What I AM really curious is, what kind of contact these horses have when they drop that front end and are low behind, doing that little "cow dance"?

Ashley, Good idea. One thing I would like to see is sources for some of these things too. Some of the more obscure things can be hard to find. If there is some maker's version of a particular tool that works better for someone, list the maker. If it is an oldie that is an ebay find, inherited, or traded for, let us know who made it. Say you like one version of a splitter better than another, tell us. If it is something you made, cool. We can all trade plans. When we burn out this candle, then we can start one on cool things, like Greg's 18" splitter.

I usually go for a 4" plus or minus a half inch cantle. My calf roping saddle is a 3-1/2" and the others are 4" or more. I think the angle and amount of dish is more of a factor for the back grabbing when horses buck. A really straight up fronted cantle with more dish will tend to pivot up into yout lower back - a bad thing. A cantle with a little flatter slope to it will push on your lower pelvis and roll your tailbone more underneath you (sitting on the "W"s, as Alan said) - a good thing. Especially if you set a low spot and a place to sit slightly in front of, not on, the cantle. This is a factor of dish, cantle angle, and how much groundwork the maker leaves in that area. I have heard this referred to as a "beaverslide seat". Looking at some of those old timer bronc saddles - the seats were shorter and the cantles were steep and not "filled" all that much. That combination will bite. Modern bronc saddles have longer seats and more cantle slope. Also most guys will adjust their leathers so there is just cantle pressure at full leg extension. The seats are longer (15-1/2 to 17-1/4" seats) vs. the 15" on the oldies. More "float" and less "mash" now when things get western in a bronc saddle or a western saddle. You could probably get some argument from Don Butler, me, and anyone else who has broken a pelvis in the saddle if "float" is always a good thing though. LOL. Another factor I see vary from maker to maker is at the front corners of the cantles. Some will curve around more the front and others will blend down the bar. The first will tend to grab a "wider-beamed" rider at those corners. I don't know how else to describe this and how to tell a treemaker about it. It is below the meauring point for "dish", so dish really can't account for it. The final concern I have with cantles is how well it blends into the bars. Some trees will have an abrupt angle, and others will have a graceful curve. The abrupt angle can be filled in somewhat with groundwork. I guess everything I have concerns about is with the front of the cantle. The backs vary by treemaker. Some makers have the backs pretty flat, and others undercut a little and have some "undercurve" to them. The straighter ones probably have a little more footprint on the bar and are potentially stronger. I like a litle curve, and can use a filler to make an undercut to slide my rear jockeys up under.

Darcy, Really neat saddle. The square skirts look really nice, and the tooling sure looks Visalia. I especially like the way this saddle and the one you had on the WH forum come out with the darker brown dye.

Regis, I bought the whole setup for under $200. Some parts are welded and some are bolted. Originally I wanted a benchtop, and a guy on another list sent me pics of his. He was one that suggested the 20 ton jack, he had broken smaller jacks. I left the pics with an ag welding shop a couple years ago. They stayed busy and never got to it for a while. Finally the price of steel got too high combined with their labor to make it viable to build. Mine came from a local industrial supplier. It is sturdier than HF and the ram is straight. Some of the Harbor Freight 20 tons had the ram welded on crooked. The cold roll steel plates are 1" thick. A guy could use thinner I think. I got them from the scrap pile at a local steel yard. They cost me about $30 for the bottom and three sizes of tops. They will rust and also transfer iron marks,so I am pretty careful about handling them with one hand and the leather with the other to avoid iron marks later. Tangent, I just cut the molds from scraps of HDPE or LDPE with a jigsaw. I screw them together with drywall screws. They can be smoothed up on a belt sander. I can make these up faster than I can fight a molded piece over a block. You need to allow for the planned leather thinkness in the kerf. I usually cut the female part slightly oversized. I then true up the male part, widen the gap, and knock off the square edge on a belt sander. They don't have to be pretty, just smooth. Dremels also will clean up a sharp edge.

Like Tangent, I didn't attach the upper plate to the ram. I also use mine to press molded things with. I attached a pic of a cell phone case front mold. I mold the leather with the ram just on the male portion of the mold first. Then I put a bigger piece over the whole thing and press again. The second pressing really sharpens up the angle and flattens the lip for sewing. When the piece has lost enough moisture to stamp, I back it up with the male portion of the mold. I make the molds out of scraps of cutting boards. The HDPE and LDPE both work up nicely with woodworking tools. I have made cell phone cases for several sizes, bottle pocket bottoms for medicine bags, and tunnel loops for cinches. I also attached a pic of how mine is set up. I use a piece of HDPE cutting board to click against. Once you have clicked through the first one, you only need to let off the pressure enough to raise it slightly more than the leather thickness. Sldie it out, slide another in, and go on. Usually 5-6 strokes will cut through heavy skirting, so it goes pretty fast. I have a few pieces of cold roll scraps to cover the different size dies I have. You really want to cover as much (and probably all) of the die to prevent bending it.

Kevin, I started opening up the pictures you have posted. By the time I got to the second one, I knew you were on the "short list", and pretty sure I knew who you were. The cantle concho cinched it. Your work is as good as the other pieces of your work I have seen. Still living around Faith? We met in Sheridan two years ago and last year. One night was rather "festive" (looking back, maybe they all were). We didn't make it this year, but plan to be back next year. Glad to have you here.

Barra, This is another one of "those" questions. One guy I talked about this with had an interesting point. We put all the back to front on one side, the front-to-front folks on the other and have a tug of war. Neither side would end up in the mud, the sides would be equal and we would quit and get a beer after 5 minutes. What I do right now. This is all subject to change because I have dang sure rethought and changed some of what I do based on this forum's discussions (like I will probably not use AZ bars except under duress, etc.). I put the back end of the skirts toward the neck of the sheep. I put the top edge of the skirts (bar area) in the middle of the woolskin. Reason for the latter - I used to put the bottom edge of the skirts together in the middle of the woolskin. Sat in a round-table and one guy offered that he put the tops in the middle. The wool is slightly denser in the middle, and the bar area receives more pressure than the skirt edges. Just lasts a while longer and makes more sense to me now. Reason for putting the rear of the skirts to the front of the woolskin. The wool lays to the back. If it is facing forward, it keeps the saddle blankets from sliding back. I was taught to saddle a horse by my grandfather. We put the saddle on further forward than we want it, and slide it back into place. This will (1) lay down wrinkles in the saddle blanket (2) slide the saddle back into the place it naturally wants to stay (3) lay the wool down, because the saddlemakers always put the wool on so they lay down when you slide them back, it bunches and clumps when you slide it forward (4) never argue with your grandfather. So does it matter after two months when the wool is more mashed down. What about the guys who use the wool on synthetic backing on synthetic fleece? Either should be non-directional. Does it matter if you use pads instead blankets? Not to hijack this thread, but we might as well include the other elephant in the living room we haven't discussed - Barge them on or rubber cement??

Lee, I got it when I joined a couple years ago. They send updates every so often. For those who don't know, it is a "shop manual" for saddlemakers. It lists average time involved for repairs, estimates for materials, and then charges based on different labor rates. The principles are pretty much based on Bob Brenner's book "How to Establish Prices for the Saddle Maker or Leather Worker". It is usually advertised in the classifieds of LCSJ and SHopTalk. I like that book. When I first got my business license, I got free access to a small business adviser. It was a program similar to the Service Corps of Retired Executives. I got that book a while later, and showed it to my advisor. He was pretty impressed with it, and ended up and got a copy for his library. The principles apply to a lot of different small businesses. If you don't get hung up on the numbers right away and apply the principles, it is good. The Green Book has taken the formulas and put in the numbers for you. That said, I don't use the Green Book all that much.

Greg, Interesting on the Hamley. The next restore project saddle I have is a Hamley Assoc. with the paperwork from 1928. On some of these restorations, they have been redone somewhere along the line, and may not be "original" like some people assume. I just finished my great-grandfather's saddle this morning. It had Al-Ray buckles on it, but the unused holes were tight ovals like for laced leathers. I laced it back. I would like to see a pic of the 18" splitter sometime. Is it a band-knife or a crank through? I have 8" and 10" Chase patterns and thought I was in tall feed. Good point about bar edge thicknesses too. On the calf-roping saddles, these bars are monstrously thick. That is the reason for the double layer of plugs. In reality, these skirts are usually not blocked up very high and the bar tips are pocketed by the sewn down riggings to cover that up, so that kind of negates the benefits of the double plugs. Some of the plugs are doubled all the way to the bars, and others have one layer all the way and one partial. I have seen it vary from one side to the other. They are selling what you see on the saddle, not the rest.

I have done quite a few restorations and relines lately, and the saddlemaking DVDs have some interesting views on plugging. I figure this thread could go to how much do you plug (edges or up to the bars), where (all the way around or front and back), do you oil the plugs, splices or one piece, do you case and pound them out to take out the curling tendency ("hammer-jacking"), How heavy, etc. On some of the recent restorations I started paying attention, especially after seeing Dale Harwood's DVD where he splits down his plugs (I think he said that anyway). I have found the older saddles - my great grandfather's 1934 Duhamel, an older Gibson from Redmond Ore, and a no-name oldie all had plugs that gauged about 8 oz. Age may have tightened these some. I contrast that with some of the Texas calf roping saddles that have had as many as two layers of plugs. Of course the rear jockeys and seat jockeys were doubled at the edges too, and the tore out front rigging on one was the flankiest piece 9 oz scrap they could find. Sooo, what does everybody do on plugs?

I use the wire brushes they sell at Harbor Freight or the welding suppliers. They cost about $1.50.

Nick, I had a friend with one of the round platen hand operated clickers Weavers (and I think Leather Factory) used to sell. The handle seemed about 3 feet long, and was a headknocker. I talked to a few guys who have the Mach III, which is probably what you are talking about. They cost around $1100 or a bit more. One guy liked his for a pair of spur straps, but much bigger than that was a "push". They do about the equivalent of 5 tons over an area about the size of a sheet of paper. He also said the heavier leather was more effort, even with smaller dies. They are a real precision item, and easy to use and adjust from reports. I looked into the pneumatic ones. The satisfied customer they referred me to offered to sell me his smaller one. He said he could use his shop press faster on skirting leather and using two dies, than the pneumatic. His bigger pneumatic one was good for the heavier leather and bigger dies. I think someone who makes holsters (?) mentioned the same experience on this forum somewhere. On the advice of a guy I talked to, I got a 20 ton shop press from a local industrial supplier (under $200). Better quality and about the same cost as Harbor Freight. Cost difference for the 20 ton vs. lesser capacity was negligible. I put a piece of cold roll steel scrap on the rails. I lay a piece of HDPE cutting board over that, the leather. the die. I then lay another piece of cold roll to cover the die and spread the force of the ram. Jack it down and it really does "click" when it goes through. You only have to raise it up enough to slide out the die and leather, reset with another piece, and go on. I can cycle through pretty quick. Obviously this is not a production setup, but I had at least $900 in savings in my pocket before I bought the first die. It has enabled me to buy more dies to make life easier with less investment. I use mine for spur straps, latigo and cinch carriers, that kind of stuff. My wife does coasters and key fobs (buckle end of spur straps). I have dies from Texas Custom Dies and would not hesitate to recommend them. I also have some off-the-rack ones from Big Sky that I got off ebay and at a show, they are good too.

Aaron, I am on a few other forums and lists, and actually I find this one easier with several categories. On some of the others, the posts are in 4 or 5 general categories. The problem is over time that these get to be very lengthy. A 2 or 3 post discussion of clickers is in the middle of mostly sewing machines, things like that. On one the posts are archived off in groups of 50. When you have to go back to look something up, it is unwieldy. Likewise, most new members never go back to post to a thread they may have something to contribute to. Another concern is that some only show the most recent posts for the last month, something like that. I think the format we have is easier. It is possible for someone new to go back and add to posts. I agree that the categories are not perfect and there is overlap in most anything we do. I think that your saddle question could go in several categories. My concern would be more to get it into one, rather than worry about where it fits exactly. The interested people will find it. My thoughts would be if it is a general question on handsewing, I would put it in the sewing section. If you are concerned about a specific way of restoring the saddle and stitching for either display or use, then probably the saddle restoration section. The big thing I like about this forum deal is that there is no email involved unless I choose it (and I don't). Other forums get me up to 75 emails a day, often on things, though interesting, don't pertain to my work. Here I can go to what I want to see first, then look at the rest at my leisure. I guess I have never used the "recent posts" thing.

Pete, I have been using and selling a few of the "roper special" cinches from Steve Bork. I like them, have worked for me, and see no reason to switch. They are double strung and I am not 100% sure how many strings they have. I have also used the original Cowboy Tack cinches when Dennis Moreland had it, they were double strung also. I am a mohair cinch fan, and haven't had problems with them.