bruce johnson

Larry, Hello and welcome. I am about 70 miles S of Sacramento in Oakdale. Lots of gunleather folks here. If you want to make a special seat for a motorcycle patrolman, you are really at the right place. Shout away with questions, and feel free to go back and add to any previous threads you have questions or advice about.

Major, The floral book is excellent. I have no hesitation in recommending it.

Major, Make that two :ranting: . I bought the flower book at the last guild meeting. It is a dandy reference and the line drawings of the flowers pictured are directly useable as tracing patterns. Yep, that is the same book. We will consider it a donation and support for the company that taught leatherworking to the world and go on, heh buddy.

Susan, Sorry for the confusion. I was thinking without looking. On the thread regarding the Nikkel's trees, David was telling Rod that if Rod changed the bar patterns by incorporating twist into Rod's patterns, he could stabilize the rear of the saddle during roping. Sorry about that to all involved. I thought I saw somewhere that David does make ranch saddles. On his website he shows a Wade with a mulehide wrapped horn. That is where I got idea of his saddles being roped out of. The site also lists a rope strap as an option.

Alan, You bring up a point that I was confusing, and am still confused on. I am referring to any type rigging not just a double dropped dee ring. I think I understand the lines of force behind the drop plate, and understand what you are saying about the double rigged with no counterbalance. About the only dropped dees I do now are on some straight roping saddles. What my confusion is (and thanks for clarifying it) , wouldn't the back cinch hanging straight down in conjunction with a triangular front rigging (plate) do a better job than the same rigging with the back cinch angling forward and hobbled to the front cinch, as shown in Jane's picture. Kind of a long winded question, but only way I can think of it. Is there a counterbalance strap on the front ring? Or is the back cinch the counterbalance strap and the third leg of the triangle? I guess I was assuming that there was a counterbalance already there. If so, then the back cinch is duplicating the same or similar function. Another factor I see with hobbling the back cinch forward. My calf-roping back cinches run 6-8" wide in the belly. If I angled them forward, I would only have the front edge hitting the horse. Even with a 3" back cinch, unless it is contoured, or the buckles hung off square, it probably wouldn't have full contact either. Also type of roping, how broke the horse is, how big the wreck is gonna be, and is the clock running all factor into how tight you are going to get and how fast. I know my horn on a low TM tree with me forward, hanging off the right side, or if I was younger or any good, already off, is creating more torque when a 230# calf hits the end. It is different cranking down on a #4 sitting on a Bowman or Olin Young on the heels of a quick steer turned, and you are sitting square and back when everything comes tight. Different yet heeling calves at a walk or trot in a branding pen and slipping on a mulehide post. These also affect what kind of back cinch, how tight the back cinch is pulled, and how long it stays pulled. The confusion may also lie in that David's trees are designed to sit in a different place than what I am used to using/seeing. Maybe with his trees being more forward, and rigged further back, they are more stable cinched as shown, and they will keep the bar fronts off the shoulder blades when the horn would be torqued.

Ashley, Good looking work. Meticulous basket stamping, and good finish. Like Luke, I am curious what you used for the antique and finish. With all this stuff changing, it is going to take some time to get the effects we are looking for with the reformulated stuff.

Mulefool, Thanks for the compliment, I like it too. It was done by my neighbor and not me. I am in a saddlemaker rich area. Probably at least 30 people within 40 miles making saddles on some level. This was a trophy saddle that I bought from my sister-in-law and resold. There was other swivel knife scrollwork on it that was good too. The cuts really dressed up this roughout. If I didn't get my price, it was going into my tackroom. I had an email from someone asking me how much wedge to cut to raise the rear of the skirts. I checked my pattern, it has a scant 3/8" wedge from 3-1/2" in to the back edge. It can sure be overdone. I have seen some saddles that look almost like rockers. The back of the skirts sit 2" off the pads. Just as a point of reference. I appreciate the emails, but generally if you have a question, several others do also. Don't be shy, post it to the forum and everyone can have input and benefit from the answers. Don't be afraid to start a new topic, and for sure, don't hesitate to go back and post in old topics. We won't all agree, and sure don't all do anything the same way. I just want to wake up smarter tomorrow, and this group will help.

David. Looking at your saddles shown by Jane in post 15 and 16 in this thread. Is this girth placed in the area you are referring to the "girth channel"? If it is not, would you place it forward or back from here? Is the rear cinch supposed to be hobbled this close to the front cinch? Looks like it would tend to catch spurs, I have enough spur tracks on my back cinches as it is. LOL. I think you mentioned somewhere that your saddles stay in place for roping. Would you rope with this rigging setup? Does the pull and vectors you are talking about keep the backend of this saddle down when roped out of, and out of the shoulders? Obviously Jane is not riding a roping/ranching saddle, but how do you (or do you) change the rigging for the ranch horse? Obviously, most of us don't cinch one like this, which the reason for these questions. I am just having trouble figuring how splitting the triangle for a saddle that the horn is used for more than decoration is holding things as or more securely than both cinches sitting vertically and holding both ends of the tree down.

I have had a couple of emails from folks not understanding what we are talking about. I have attached some pictures to help illustrate. On the roughout, these skirts are laced all the way to the back. One problem with doing this. If the skirts do not exactly line up at the rear, the difference of even 1/16 of an inch is noticable. On mine I cut the rear corners at about a 1" or little better radius on all my skirts whether they are square or rounded. This gives a bit of relief, and allows a small side to side difference from setting the skirts to not be as noticable. The tooled saddle is one of mine, actually my wife's. The skirts are a bit shorter than usual, but they are laced back to the start of the curve. The rear jockeys cover them up, as Greg described. On longer skirts, the non-laced areas would show more.

Alan, If I am doing my math right, this guy wants fenders and leathers that have a 12 inch difference in the holes between him and his wife. That is huge. She is going to have a foot plus some of excess leathers hanging out the bottom. Aethetically??? Functionally she is adding another leg cue to flop around when she is riding. I know it is hard to extrapolate based on leg size, but I am guessing (unless they are both Jack Sprats) that the seat size is not the same for them either. I am thinking a second saddle.....

Ashley, Two ways to skin the cat. I don't know if it is a regional thing or personal preference. First if you lace all the way, the thought is that the back skirt edges will rub on the horses back. They will if the skirts tend to flip down because you cut a straight line where they meet. By cutting a forward wedge (fuller at the back) where they meet and lace all the way, the back edge will ride up. If the rear jockeys pull down, it makes a tight closure over the back bar tips. The other guys lace only to the end of the back bar tips, and the skirts are independent past that. Theory is that it allows freer movement. The rear jockeys cover the lacing of the skirts. Personally, I like to lace all the way, but have them ride up. I have seen some of the open rear skirts that curl on those corners, less attractive to me.

Doug, I would just wipe them with plain water. The silver is already fixed to the film, and ruboff or transfer has never been a problem for me. Bruce Johnson, DVM

Susan, Thanks for the topic. This almost exactly what I had in mind when I started this whole saddle fitting thing on this and another list before. I think we can and mostly do fit the average QH decently enough, although some would disagree. I wanted to know "how do we fit the oddball". Some responses have been that we would then be fitting one horse and the saddle would be obsolete when that horse was gone. True enough, unless we are fitting a body style. Nobody really had any good consistant ways to communicate with the tree maker on how to fit that horse. We have had quite a lot of water under this bridge since then, and I think and hope we have all learned and exchanged some great information. I foresee Dennis Lane's system being a real plus for this area. Obviously we are going to be fitting some breeds not covered by Dennis' previous records, but that is the intent as I see it. Bruce Johnson

As Barra said, eucalyptus is supposed to be a natural fungicide, as I know vinegar is. I have been told that eucalyptus is the fungicide in ProCarve casing concentrate. I was referred to a Cajun (when not partying) and a guy in Mississippi both that they have had little or no problem with mold during stamping, and even with the finished products in use just by casing with ProCarve. One thinks there is probably enough of that good stuff left in the leather that it inhibits mold. Where I live we don't get wet in the summer, unless you have a wreck in the clover. We mold in the winter fog, and it usually that white powdery stuff, not the cool green fuzz. When I was going a bit (back in the day of two horse trailers with the tack compartment under the manger), we put a rag soaked with Lysol in an open coffee can in the tack compartment to inhibit mold. Road heat and wet saddleblankets made those closed up areas just right to grow a green saddle. Like Greg, we used vinegar if it grew. I never saw any real problems from the acid, but we were not real easy on equipment either. We were using enough saddle soap, it probably balanced out the pH deal.

Happy Birthday, Take the rest of the day off, and tell the boss I said it was OK. Bruce J

Aye, Lee, this brings up a question. I am not picking on you, but you brought up something that can take this thread in a bit of rabbit hunt. One of the elder gents I have been fortunate to spend a morning with told me he would come back from the grave and kick my butt if I ever ran strings through the sheepskin on a repair. Reasons being, if this was a good way to do it, why not do it on new construction (although some do)? Reasons given not to do it on a new saddle is the strings lay flatter underneath the wool, they pound in smoother and less chance of a lump. What makes a repair saddle with mashed down wool any better to run the strings through the sheepskin? It should be worse if anything. I offered the excuse you can always cut the wool away under the string and it will lay flatter. If sheep leather was so tough they would use if for boot soles and not diplomas was the reply. You might wear a hole through the sheepskin eventually and THEN you might have some more relief from the lump. That would be right before you catch the edge of the hole in the sheepskin on the saddlerack and tear it into smithereens. At that point I knew my argument of "It is faster and easier to just poke a hole with my collar awl and pull the string up through" would have been futile. He had told me previously that unless "faster and easier" were also accompanied by "stronger and better with more quality" in the same sentence, they weren't a valid excuse for anything he knew of. (This guy was like EF Hutton...) Now I fish piece of wire through the hole, catch it and pull it up through the other hole, pull a piece of hand thread back through and use that to tie onto the string end with a series of half hitches. I pull the thread and the string follows. My sharp collar awl is a relic.

Just to reiterate my first post. Everyone has different expectations and price points for everything. Dusty's tapes will show you how he makes one. Granted it is not how a lot of other makers do it. His price and tapes/books are geared to entry level people who arguably should or should not be making saddles to begin without some supervision. It gives the novice a brief overview of a simplified way of making a saddle. They were marketed through Tandy, catering to the casual crafter who wanted to read something, view a tape, and see if they thought making a saddle was for them to try. I am not sure of the timeline, but am thinking they may have come out before the Stohlman series of saddlemaking books. Bill Gomer's videos are step past Dusty, and priced as such. The Cheaney sets are past Bill's and cost more. (funny how this progression is going here). Jeremiah's are the most complete, longest, detailed, and, until now - priced past all of them. I received my set of Harwood DVDs today. I have only seen Dale's first DVD so far. I am in fitting and finesse overload. Much like Jeremiah's, I think a person needs to watch 5 minutes, think about it 5 minutes, and then go on. For the guys who have spent time with Dale, I am envious. You need to have a basic grasp of saddlemaking and know your weak areas before viewing DVDs, taking a class, or even calling or visiting another maker to really get full benefit in my opinion. My take on what I have seen so far. Dale assumes you know how to make a saddle, how to use your tools, and how to prepare your leather. It is not geared to teach the novice to build a saddle from scratch. This set, like Jeremiah's, will help the average guy who has already made some saddles elevate his work to the next level. They will show you different ways than you may have been taught. To compare either of these sets to Dusty's is like comparing apples and oranges, Coke and Pepsi. To quote Baxter, they are about as similar as a bowling ball and a broken gate. They just are geared to way different viewers with different expectations and, I dare say, abilities. As far as what is on them, Mike Craw listed the contents on the Dale Harwood DVD thread. Are they worth it? First disc paid for the set to me just showing me how to put my cantle back and fillers on better. I am likewise guilty of normally punching too large a hole to for the back corners of the fork cover that goes down into the gullet. Anything else I learn is free. Dale is not riding on reputation here, the info is worth the dough if you are serious.

Skip, The guild I belong to meets at a Tandy. Since it is a 70 mile drive, also a good excuse for me to pick up the HL stuff and the stuff they won't ship at all now. I would wager that nearly everyone comes in with a shopping list and checks out at the cash register when the meeting ends. We meet at 5:30 on a Saturday, so the store is closed, no interruption of business. The manger and assistant are guild members (we might comp their dues, not sure). Might bring this up to the Tandy manager. Another suggestion might be to contact a senior citizen's center or retirement center. They usually have an activities room that is mostly open. They also usually have an activities director begging for someone to have a program going. Might be a deal to have the guild meeting and then a crafts program for residents. ANNNND, this is a great way to get rid of scrap. We just had the Scrap Dilemma thread going over on the saddle side. I am going to borrow a quote (I am thinking of having this fonted out nicely and framed). From my friend, Go2Tex who says, "Well, as they say, one man's scrap is another man's future key fob".

Well we haven't had anything controversial for at least a few days. I am posing a question/poll about something that has been discussed about as much as anything. Seems to be #3 in the "saddlemakers-meeting-for the-first-time" list of questions. It ranks right behind #1) Who's trees do you use? and #2) Who's skirting do you use? Coming in at #3) Do you drill trees for strings or not? I was taught to be a non-driller. I have drilled some by request, and didn't feel like I was cheating or anything though. On the repairs, it has been interesting. The only really rotted out holes on a tree were on an ancient Visalia that the rest of the saddle was rotted too. I saw a variation a while back I had not seen before. I saw the drill holes on top. When I cut the tugs, the skirts fell free. This saddle had the tree drilled, but the strings only went around the tree, not through the skirts. The rawhide was removed between the drill holes to let the latigo strings lay in a little more. First I had ever seen or heard of that. This maker builds a saddle with a good reputation for holding together and being a user. This saddle was probably ten years old, and the best care it probably gets is to lay under the gooseneck on the flatbed in the rain. From looking at the strainer liner, looks like it mostly roosts on a toprail at night otherwise. I have attached pics for clarification on the holes and rawhide removal. I am wondering what everyone does, if you want to say why, great. If you want to describe pitfalls or disadvantages of the way you don't do it - even greater. If you just want to say "driller" or "non-driller", that's cool too. I am curious what our treemakers think about us poking rather large holes in their work as well. Bruce Johnson

Attached is the photo of the slickers from Weaver and the one I had made by Norm Lynds. The advantage of the Weaver one is the tip is good for doing inside slots or very small inside curves. The one from Norm is sturdier and has a better range of grooves. The Weaver originally came with just the 3 grooves, I added the upper wider groove with a rat-tail file while it was spinning. Bruce Johnson

Ed, My experiences. I have used the wooden and plastic disks from Tandy in a drill - works OK, but only one size groove. I have used both the plastic and wooden spindles from Weavers on my drill press. The plastic melts, and the wooden ones do alright until the spindle breaks off where you chuck it. I have broken three. The problem is the spindle is just a turned down part of the unit, turned down until it is "spindly" - bad joke. It is wooden and so the jaws of the chuck eventually bite out chips, and it can get out of true as well. They each lasted me about 6-8 months. That is pretty good for the amount of use, but they could be better. Weavers seem to be less than enthusiastic about customer feedback and suggestions for product improvement on this item. Last year I had one made up by Norm Lynds. I think Norm is a member of this group. It has a metal spindle going into the wood, is true as a rule, and he put several sizes of grooves in it at my suggestion. I was thinking two shorter ones, but Norm got all the grooves on one longer one. I think mine have 9 or 10 grooves. I do everything from 2 oz wallet pockets to double 15 oz saddle skirts on it. I like it enough that I now have two (one for plain edges, one for dyed edges). I can't see them wearing out. When I last talked to Norm, he was in the middle of packing up his shop and moving to another house. He figured he might be back up by mid to late summer. He makes some other handy tools - a nice modeler, sets of embossers, seat smasher/bouncer, etc. I will post pics tomorrow of my last unbroken Weaver one and the ones from Norm. Bruce Johnson

Kind of curious what everyone is using for stirrup leather buckles. I have mostly used the Blevins without the hinge, and am wondering if there are any advantages to the hinged Blevins? I have also used quite a few of the Veach Fast Buckles. The barrel racers and some cutters tend to like them. The Fast Buckles are shorter, so there is more flexibility in the leathers for shorter legged riders, and they do seem to ride over a latigo without catching more than the Blevins. Disadvantage is that they need a keeper for the tail of the leather to keep the bottom pin in line. I have not used the Superior buckle system, and would like some feedback on them. Also any experiences with the Blevins clones in stainless would be appreciated. I know a few companies are making them. Thanks, Bruce Johnson

Lee, They have a website - www.ubraidit.com. They sell supllies and instructionals. Bruce Johnson

Ed, The wooden strap cutters sold by Tandy used to be made by someone else. The old ones I have seem to work fine. They track true, the numbers are reasonably accurate (made in a country that still uses inches and not metric), and they stay where set with just the thumb screw and hand pressure. A while back I bought a couple new ones on a manger's discount deal, thinking I could just leave them set to a common width. On both of these there were problems. They don't track true, one tends to bind and the other rides out. I use a razor blade in mine, so it is not a bevel deal on the blade. It is the blade slots are not cut exactly perpendicular to the bar. It takes a pliers tightening the thumb screw or the setting loosens as you pull. The advantages of these are the top cross bar holds the strap down and you are a little more protected from blade cuts as well. They will only cut up to about 16 oz, if that is an issue. It is with my doubled reins. The draw gauges bring other advantages. They will take thicker than 16 oz. You can cut slits with them coming up from the bottom that the crossbar on the wooden cutter prevents. If they are not exactly true, you can shim the blade or change the bevel on side to the other to true up the blade. Shimming is easier for me. Disadvantages of draw gauges are the exposed blade asking to eat your knuckle feeding a strap in. One of those cam-action fence-stretcher holders for the strap end looks like a good idea. Draw gauges tend to drag a bit if the blade is not absolutely sharp, and you tend to pull the handle towards you vs. the blade, and get off line. I focus on the blade and not the handle as I pull it. The longer the width, the more this "pivot arm effect" is a factor. When I use my 6" gauge full width, I really have to concentrate to keep it straight. I like the blades Bill Buchmann makes for the draw gauges. I bought one from Bob Douglas at Wickenburg, and have since bought another for my other draw gauge. The older draw gauges seem to be better than the imports sold by the craft suppliers. I like a fatter handle, and have an old Osborne with the wood inserts I mostly use. The 6" one I have is one of the metal old cavalry issue models. It is good for cutting blocks of latigo to glue up and then stitch for reins. They made a million of them, but I still feel like I am holding a piece of history in my hand. Both of these cutters work best for me on vegtan leather, latigo, or diamond tan. Softer leather tends to bunch, and I get uneven edges. For the soft leather like chap or pig, I like to use a rotary cutter against my pattern material. I use printer's press blankets for patterns. It is firm enough to cut against, and the rubber side down really keeps it in place. I make up gusset patterns from it. Bruce Johnson

Ed, Most good sized towns will have a plastics shop. There are some mail order places too. If they don't stock it, they can usually order cutting board overnight. They will cut to size, and may have remnants sitting around. I got two five gallon buckets of scraps that I make my cell phone molds, and stuff like that out of for free. I like HDPE to cut on, and LDPE to pound/punch against. The HDPE can crack if you hit it enough. Bruce Johnson