bruce johnson

Don, Not sure if it is a regional deal, or different shops doing it one way or the other. I have seen some oldies done with 2 separate straps too. I see the advantage of the one piece as Keith describes. By having both straps together, there would be less tendency for a ring to be pulled more to one side or the other with the straps separate. I am not sure which method came first. There is some question of where the Sam Stagg rigging originated, and some historians even cast doubts on the existance of a saddlemaker named Sam Stagg (and occasionally referred to as "Sam Stack"). There was a saddlemaker in the San Joaquin valley (Visalia area) by the last name of Samstagg I am recalling. This is where the proponents of a real Sam Stagg usually refer. I have not had the opportunity to see a saddle or picture of any of Samstagg's work. Would be interesting to see how his were rigged. Anybody know where one is sitting?

Hardspots are sometimes seen in that heavy leather when it doesn't tan all the way through, and has a rawhide center. Usually not cheap leather either. I have had round (not rotary) knives "climb out" of the cut. That will scare the crap out of you when it just rides up that hard edge and pops up. Draw Gauges will just plain hit the wall. It takes some effort to cut through this. Biggest thing is just knowing it is there, then you can deal with it. Either one of the weapons that Wolvie showed will do the job but will require that you cut carefully. When I was using one of the leathers with a history of hard spots, it was usually in the necks and shoulders. Groundseat pieces for me, and I could do final cuts on them with my 3-in-1's cutting wheel too. Then soak them up and they worked OK for that.

I get a lot of the regular stuff from Hansen's Silver. They are local and I don't have to inventory much. My wife picks it up on her way home from work. They are at most of the trade shows. In 2006 at the NFR, I bought some stuff from Dale Bass. He is from Amarillo or some place close by in the panhandle of TX. He does nice work kind of close to the par of Greg's list.

GH, First off, all I have ever built on have been rawhided wood trees, nailed, and rawhide laced. I probably followed the same progression a lot of people do. My first few trees were from Bowden, and were and still are OK. I built some barrel racers on a pattern that Hadlock&Fox has. They were alright too. Some issues with lumpy rawhiding on both of these, something to deal with. I had a guy bring me an epoxy dipped tree from H&F and had the seat glassed in already. We opted out of that. I was looking for a little further up the ladder, and started ordering from Timberline. Rawhiding and finish was smoother. Better cantle transitions, more taper to the bar edges, not as clubby, and higher quality for not a lot more money. In 2006 I came home from Sheridan and ordered the exact same tree from Superior, Timberline, and Sonny Felkins as a comparison. The Superior was rugged - thick cluibby bars, lumpy lacing, not what I prefer. The Timberline and Sonny's trees were pretty similar in shape. Nod goes to Sonny's for smoother rawhiding. Was it worth $100 more and 2 months more wait for the rawhiding ? Can't say. I picked up a few here and there that guys had - old Superiors and Hercules. Good trees, but both no longer made. Some I built on, some I have resold. I still want to move up the ladder for the better customer, and my own philosophy. Started loking at the handmades. I got one from Nikkels via Sheridan Leather Outfitters, recently bought a Jeremiah Watt tree and another Nikkel tree from this list. Another level up of quality in those trees. I have a couple Timberlines in the roper pattern I like. Also have a bronc tree to make myself a toy on. I quoted a guy a NUTS price last week on a bronc saddle, and he is considering it. Living room display model.

Bugsy, Everyone's expectations and experiences are going to be different, whether we are talking saddle trees, leather, or pickups. Example - My Chevy has 420K miles, cows have run into it, and it starts everyday. My wife was driving the Dodge, hit a 600# feeder steer at 55 mph in the dark full on, and she and the Dodge both survived. The Ford packs the Capri camper around, and hasn't really been baptised yet. I am not sure which truck or saddle trees are the best. LOL.

Right now I have a couple ropers from Timberline. I have also got a couple of Nikkels - one through a drawing at Sheridan Leather Outfitters, and one from another guy who ordered one, but the customer needed a different size tree. I pick off here and there too. I just got another tree from a guy who decided to buy instead of build. I am not big enough to have a steady order with anyone at this point.

A topic for which there is no answer. only opinions, we all got 'em. It depends on level of experience, customer base, customer's intended use, availability from the tree maker, time frame needed, cost considerations, where you live, and how much you are willing to allow in differences in a tree. Some tree makers make great trees, and several have a closed book of customers. Someone is going to have to die to move onto the list. Others put out several trees a day and sell orders and off the rack. There are new makers who might hand make a good tree and not have the reputation yet. There are old established names whose quality is not what the predecessor was. Much in the way of specifics is like comparing Dodge, Chevy, and Ford. You can make the best tree or the worst tree, and every one of them will sell. It is up to the maker and ultimately the customer as to what level they expect. Consider that they sell saddles on ebay for $400, and they have a tree in them. Then there are saddles with a base of $4500 or 5000. They better have someone else's tree in them. We would all like to get even trees, within a decent time frame, and what we need. Bottom line is that there are more people making saddles, and more demand for middle and upper level trees than there are treemakers right now. A bunch of horses go OK everyday in low end trees, and get by because they either aren't ridden enough to see the problems or they do fit within the allowances of those trees.

Same thing as protecting stitching on top of anything subject to wear - groove it and lay it in deeper than the thread size. I groove my lines pretty deep on things that could wear.

Ryan, A few different versions of the origin of chinks. There is even some debate over which Spanish word the term "chink" is bastardized from. Easier to move in, cooler, traditionally worn in warmer or less brushy country. Not as regional as they used to be, although many of the guys introducing Wades to the world wear shotguns. Go figure. I like your chinks. You are now a pro at setting spots. That had to be fun. I make my scalloping punches like you do, too. I even have some half rounds I made from up to 1-1/4" punches. Looking in the background, I think your pet deer must be frozen. Doesn't seem to have moved in the different pictures. So, where are you at up there? I lived in Albert Lea for a while as a kid. My wife is from northern MN. Only thing I miss is icefishing.

Ryan, Regarding a traditional bouncer, Norm Lynds made me one a couple years ago. I think Norm is a member here. If not, I'll see if I can dig up an email address for him. I am attaching a picture below. I used to use doorknobs, but had issues with procelain vs. concrete floor. I used to buy them by the 6s at the architectural salvage, and still ran low. Norm's has a "doorknob" on one end and a bigger and slightly flatter piece on the other end. It does what I ask of it. I have a seat stick from Hidecrafters. I had to do some tuning on it to get the shape I wanted. Big Sky's was ready to go, but I needed to use a return credit at HC. Now as far as rubbing blocks and big bone folders - LDPE. I use the cutting board material. I cut it out with a jigsaw, and shape it with my belt sander, router, and sanding drums. It works up really easy. I have made up different curves for swells, and blocks for slicking leather. Neat thing is if you hit a nail and nick it, a quick brush against the sanding drum or belt and I am back in business in under a minute.

Wood, Looks good. I did new fenders for an old Oliver saddle a couple years ago. Try as hard as I could, I could only find that they used 5 stamps on the whole thing - seeder, beveler, backgrounder, thumbprint shader, and a cam. I can hold that many stamps in my mouth. Much easier to duplicate these old patterns for dang sure.

I got these spools in a package deal, and have enough white on hand. There are 6 spools total, and all are unused. There are two spools of DaBond Poly - 277 and 346. These are still shrink wrapped and crisp white. There are two spools of bonded nylon in 207 and 346 that are also in the plastic and crisp white. There are a spool of 346 and 415 that were on a shelf and have yellowed a bit on the surface. I want to sell these as set at $40, plus $9 for flat rate Prioroty Mail shipping. Picture below. Thanks.

I have a brand new and unused 5/8" English point Osborne end punch. It still has the plastic dip to protect the blade and is in the box. I already have one. It is $15, and shipping by flatrate Priority mail is $5. I'll do check or PayPal. Thanks, icture below. I also have 6 spools of thread and would combine shipping if you buy those too. They are listed under "supplies and hardware".

Charlie, I am not a braider, but have had a few different splitters, and finally found the style I will die with. I have had the Osborne 86, Osborne 84 knockoff, a hand crank, have gotten the little TLF ones in tool sets, and they all work. Some are better than others. I really prefer the Chase pattern splitters for my work. There are two rollers that feed the piece into the blade, and so the piece would have a hard time riding up a blade and chopping like can happen with some of the pther styles. As far as for braiding strings, there are several made just for that. Wayne Jueschke makes one, I think they are still selling the Frank Hanson version, LaceMaster, and others. I think there is a thread going in the braider section on that. My advice would be to try a few different ones before you buy if you can.

I use mine for thinning down leather, mainly for straps. They can also be used for skives of different lengths. It allows me to buy heavier leather, and then thin to thickness I need, rather than several weights of leather. Also, I can match things better. I can have heavier brief case sides, and lighter handles from the same side. I have an 8" and 10" splitter. I pulled some 7-1/2 through the 10" today with not a lot of effort, both feet were still on the floor. There are some wider splitters that can split big pieces down. Some are motorized and some are wheel cranked. They are a bit spendy unless you find the right deal on one and have need. Splitters are not the first thing a shop needs, but they are handy when you get going. Several styles are out there, and a ot of the old relics are more functional than new ones. Some prefer one or the other.

Alan, If you would have asked me a year ago, I fell in with the rigging having a bigger influence on where a saddle sits than it does. There is at least one scenario where I see that it does. First off is the rider who has been taught from the get-go that you hang the cinch straight down behind the elbow. A lot of us that grew up with full double or close riggings learned that. I learned as a kid to lay my saddle further forward of where is should be, and slide it back until it fell into the right spot. This was to lay down the wool in the direction it was put on, smooth out any blanket wrinkles, lay down the horses hair, and Grandpa said so. When I got smarter and older, I was riding roping and cutting saddles with the full double Dee riggings and so the cinch behind the elbow rule kind of fit. Not because of rigging position, but that was the sweet spot for the tree. With the popularity of Wades and flat plates, we have people trained in the cinch position all of the sudden strapping on 5/8 riggings to the elbow and holding them there with breast collars.

Ed, I am going to add another factor in here. I look at which way the drain water swirls. No, seriously, I don't think it makes much difference with thread. It matters how you load the bobbin and the direction it unwinds in the case. If it is the wrong way, swap the bobbin end for end. Kind of like the great "toilet paper unwinding over the top or from the bottom" debate one of those inane newspaper advice columnists supported themselves with a few years back. That said, I usually wind my bobbins the way it was wound on the spool. I lay my bobbin supply spools in a drawer and unwind them clockwise (viewed from the bottom of the spool) from the side letting them spin in the drawer, and onto the bobbin clockwise. My logic with the lay of ropes, and unwinding or winding hose and barbwire tells me that should be right. In real life, bobbin winders on machines unwind from the top, and so will feed coils onto the bobbin. If it is the direction to tighten the thread twist or unwind it, I am not sure. Obviously not a huge concern of the sewing industry, because they all do it. When I cut the bobbin thread from the main spool, I usually get about 6-10" that springs off. I just figure that as my tag end. My two cents worth.

Doug, I look at the same searches as Andy, plus I look at "shoe repair", "saddlemaking", and "saddle making". I also look at the categories a bit. Start in "crafts" scroll down to "leathercraft" and look at the "leather tools and treatments". That picks off most of the hand tools and bench tools. I normally look at "ending today" and "newly listed" in the categories.

Doug, I am attaching some pics so people know what we are talking about. The Landis handcrank is the gray tool with the handle in the first pic. It has a 2" blade, and can be adjusted for pitch, and the fence can adjust for depth and width of the skive. Good for firm leather like skirting. Actually it was designed for skiving sole leather in the shoe trade. I bought it refurbished with a 3-in-1 for around $300 for both . These show up on ebay a lot. Some of the American ones have the severe feed wheel on top. It will mark your leather. Mine doesn't leave anything that couldn't be rubbed out if needed. Also the 2-in-1, 3-in-1, and 5-in-1 bench machines all have a skiver just like these. They are on ebay a lot too, usually $150-350. My buddy just bought an American "B" skiver for something like $56. It will be cherry when he is done with it. I used to have this Landis along with 2 3-in-1s. I had each of them set to a different skive. Ended up after I got the bell knife skiver I didn't use them. I think Joe Benner had a 4" handcrank skiver at Elko last spring, I hadn't seen one that wide before. The bell knife skiver has several presser feet. It will do up to a 2" skive, and is pretty much fully adjustable for pitch, width and depth. I bought the skiver along with a steel feed wheel, new knife, new sharpening wheels and dressing sticks, several presser feet, table, and new motor for around $1400 I think. Along with a half day lesson on my leather. Plus I got to eat pizza with Wayne Christensen and Harvey Lutske later on. The casting is heavier on mine vs. the new models. Might be a factor. Parts are pretty readily available. There are a ton of different feet for specific skives and grooves. I bought what feet I figured I would use, and have. I might get one to do a 1/8 or 3/16 channel at some point.

Ok, we are getting into some training and philososphy of riding, which gives us all some perspective of our backgrounds and needs/wants of our customers. To weigh in on the saddle horn thing, grab or not to grab. I am a grabber, I am not a choker or a puller usually. Yes those things will get you in wreck. But also horns were put there for a reason, and they serve a purpose, one of which is to be an anchor point. If I am getting bucked off and am loose and pitching forward, there are certain anatomical considerations. You can bet I am going to grab and push myself back down or push on it to stay back. I have had a couple of injuries. Two compression fractured vertebrae from being bucked off. That was kind of a bad day, as was the 40 mile ride to the hospital. I have fractured my pelvis and wasn't bucked off, that was a worse day. I then had to figure how to get off him after I got the playday stopped. As an aside, don't refuse help from the neighbor lady driving by. I thought I had aggravated an old chronic groin injury when I felt the pop. Right after she drove off, I felt the bones grating. I have no shame using a horn. Kiskaddon talks about it some of his poetry. The old farts will all admit to doing it if they are pressured into being truthful. Yeah they did it when they needed to. Most of what we are talking about is way different than someone holding on the saddlehorn nose-to-tail-down-the-trail or learning to ride in the ring. Yes you need to learn balance, rythm, feeling the horse, knowing their feet, all that to really be a rider. I worked for a cutting horse trainer, and used to show them too. You want to see a horn, look at what they use now. It is a handle, and every one of them use it. Mostly to push on, but sometimes you pull jumping out of a sweep. A horse pops into run, leaves a roping or bulldogging box, pull yourself up or steady yourself with the horn. Barrel racers pull up leaving a barrel. Reined cowhorse riders on a tight turn on the fence sometimes need to push back up. There are always exceptions, but by an large, it is pretty common for some darn good riders to lay a hand on the horn.

Just as a friendly reminder. When we change a topic within a thread, it is easy to carry right on there and we all do it. Problem is that finding a discussion later or for new folks finding us, it is hard to look everywhere. If we could move the discussion on saddle tree suppliers over to the saddle section, we have a subtopic already on "saddle Supplies. Tools, and Trees". Anybody can feel free to add topics as they see fit. That is going to make this whole deal a lot more searchable, and less hassle on the upper echelon computer literate staff. I am going to learn how to move things, but want to wait to get the greenlight before I break the board. Thanks to all for the great discussions, and hopefully the old posts will be restored soon. Then the new folks can REALLY see where we have come from.

Barra, I have Ferdco's 1245, a clone of the Pfaff. Nope, no bobbin winder on the machine. Good little machine though. I have had it for a year, still waiting for the first skipped stitch once I got the tensions set to my likings. Apparently there are other "1245s". On the boot and shoemakers forum, they talked about about the 1245, but one that is a post machine totally unrelated in any recognizable form to the Pfaff or the clones of it. Silly me, I thought I knew the answer. Ed, I think the key to bobbins is to have an even tension and wind them level. A softer lie and then harder tension over that can dig a thread in, and it may drag when feeding. If the drag is more than the cast tension, it will pull tighter. That would be the only situation I could see where bobbon winding tension could be an issue. Likewise an uneven bobbin where the thread is feeding from low, and rides into the blob of thread above it and catches might be a problem. Think level-wind like the old baitcasting fishing reels.

Randy, Going rate a while back according to a barroom survey was 10 cents per spot, plus the cost of the spot. When I was doing a bunch of them (like the belt shown in the Wrangler ads now even LARGER, my mother is so proud), I did a time study. I could consistatnly do 6 per minute over the long haul. That was close enough to shop rate, I just use that. Now I proably need to give myself a raise and go to 12 cents. I use the slider and collar setup too. I have a hand press, but am faster and more accurate with the slider deal.

Ed, I really don't see a noticeable difference. Some I wind on the 2000, some I do with the drill. If I have a long run (rein day), I wind all the empties I have at once on the drill. Faster for me to do that than to change out bobbins on the machine, set the next one, do it over. I don't much care for the winders that bind on the belt, so I never installed it on the 1245, all those I use the drill. I tension with my thumb and forefinger, so tension is pretty consistant. I dont see tension as much of a factor, as long as it is consistant. The biggest tensioner is on the bobbin case, not how tight the bobbin is wound on the spool. Biggest advantage I have with doing them with the drill is I can evenly wind them. No glob in the center and tapered ends. That is what catches and binds sometimes as you sew. My experience.

ED, I guess I know who I am going to call next time I need a special punch. Thirty for a die, and twenty more for a handle. That is a bargain. Thanks for the homework.