bruce johnson

Art, Ok just watch my hands. buddy. Just kidding. I usually punch them so the point is up. That way if a customer ever takes it off, they can at least relace it on the traditional way when they get confused. I start with my lace going down the two lower holes from the front. Put a half twist in the lace in those holes, so the grain side is up. Bring the lace around the edges of the strap to the front and back down the orginal lower two holes. Then on the back side bring the tag ends up through the top hole back to the front. Split them and take each on down and through each lower hole to the back side. On the back side slip the ends under the lacing there to secure them and trim the ends. That is the easy way. I have seen it done where the ends finish up tucked under a parallel strand, but that is harder to explain, and usually takes me having a better mental picture before I start. I usually get that better mental picture after messing it up a couple times.

Ed, You may have mentioned this before, but I missed it. Whose version of a 441 do you have? Look like the pics you attached are sewn on some sort of latigo? I may be comparing apples and oranges here. Neither of my 2000s track like that on the top. Also there is nothing on the bottoms to make the tracks either. My throat plates are all smooth, and the lower feed never hits the leather. There might be some excess pressure on the top side, or the feet are not meeting the leather level and toeing/heeling down. I have some belts to do in the next couple days. I'll set up mine with the same size thread and needle and get some pictures.

Daggrim, Gum Tragacanth is a gleatinous kind of mixture used in a lot of products from medicine to cosmetics. It is used on edges of leather and then rubbed to burnish them. It is usually sold mixed up, but some places sell it as a powder. Easier to buy it mixed, they add an antimicrobial of some time I think. I bought some powder (not cheap) and mixed it myself several years ago. It grew more mold by the end of a week than bad cheese in an unplugged refrigerator. Billy, I like the effects of gum trag. I never really found a decent way to apply it until about a year ago. I tried sponges, sponge brushes, rags, finger tips, envelope moistening pens, etc. They all work, but when you have a pile of work to slick, they take too long. You are applying some to a sponge, it runs out, reapply after 6" of edge, gain another 6". I hit a deal on one of the Heritage Dye Boxes that Weaver sells. I never liked it for dye, The reservoir is too deep and requires too much dye to bring it up the roller sponge level, It is a bit uneven in its application of dye, and a real pain to clean every time. I put gum trag in it and have never looked back. It puts the right amount on, continuously reapplies fresh GT to the roller, and I have never cleaned it since. I just snap on the cover and leave it sit. I replenish, stir with my finger, and go on the next time. For shorter runs, a small sponge paint roller might work. To weigh in on saddles soap. I use that too. I only use the white now, and sometimes I apply it to leather before I tool it also. The yellow saddle soap can leave some lavender spots on some leathers. I use SS to slick edges on latigo and some strap work. A few things about it. For me it will lay down the fibers and look pretty smooth. I have a hard time generating the friction needed to burnish (and there is a difference between slicking and burnishing). Burnished edges will resist nicking more than a slicked edges. Burnished edges will look more glassy. SS will pull of my edge dye if I dye the edge first. SS will partially resist my edge dye if I dye after slicking. I have got some flaming purple edges. For straps like breast collar tugs and horse tack that I am not putting a sealer on or edge dyeing, I use SS to slick them. It will lay down the fibers on the fleshside too, and give a nice waxy feel. I have a damp rag that I saturate with SS and use that rag to slick with - rub on edges or wrap it around straps and pull them through. I store the rag in an empty SS can and keep it moist. Some guys will let them dry and use them drier than me. Personal preference. I use wax sometimes too. About anything that will moisten an edge can be used to burnish - water, casing solution, alcohol. I was taught in one class early on to use spirit dyes. It works, but the golden period is shorter and I messed up some projects with spillage and dripping issues. I could probably use it now with some improved application methods.

Ed, I was there brother!! Tandy used to have a local store. A few years post closure, I could buy sets of tools at every 5th yard sale. The Saturday freebie classifieds usually had them too. I got some nice older tools, but a lot of duplicates. I tried to modify about everything they made. I tried to modify the edgers to look like the good tools I saw pictures of. Some worked sort of OK. I hit a goldmine at one yard sale. There was a set of tools. The usual 40 craftools, Maul Master (version #1), plastic mallets, v-gouge, Jerry's stripper, that one size of french edger everybody must have bought, a huge edger marked "Ron's" (horn edger) and 3 Ron's round bottom edgers. I couldn't get the $20 out fast enough - no dickering there. Once I used the Ron's edgers, I realized a few things. When you start with cheap tools, realize they are made with cheap metal normally. They will not hold the edge. The temper may be gone from what you did, or it may never have been there. The shanks are too short and sometimes too narrow to make them the right size and angle to work right. I had a box of modified tools that probably cost me $40, and together they weren't worth one of the good tools. They were even too short to make into ProPetals at that point. I had several hours of time involved with modifying them. It is not like grinding off a little here and there to change a pear shader or making a meander stamp from a bolt. I since sold the Ron's edgers to a guy who was going home and wanted them badly. I replaced them with Jeremiah's round bottoms after I went through the frustration of a few Osborne edgers for old time's sake. There was very little difference between Ron's and Jeremiah's in my hands. Bob's are good too. The thing with buying tools from these guys is that they are all users of these tools too. They know how the old good ones were made. They have either kept that, or modified them slightly to suit them. I let them be the toolmakers now, and I am the customer.

Pete, Is mission lining the black plastic feeling stuff? If so, I haven't used it for a long time. I used to use the boot lining pig from TLF, and still have some around. It is pretty stretchy, a little nappy, and really lays in flat for me. I think they carry it in natural and "biscuit" or "straw" color. I used to just call up and ask for "straw pig". In the last year or two, I have gone to the "glazed pig". It has a glazed or jacked finish. Pretty rich kind of feel. It is maybe a little less stretchy than the lining pig. I have not had creasing problems with either of these. I line all my small folding things like business card holders and checkbooks with it. I have started using it on zippered planners in the last few months too. At about $1 a foot, it is less expensive than what I was using before. TLF used to have the glazed pig in a copper color. The last few orders they have had a really nice golden color. I do have wrinkling problems laying it in sometimes. Because it is so flexible (and I glue outside) the wind will pick it up and fold it back on itself. If I don't have a helper holding it up, sometimes it will lay in with a wrinkle on a big piece. I usually apply Barge to the main piece, and while it is drying, apply to the lining. When the lining is still a little slippery, but starting to tack, I lay it on. If I put it on tacked and dry, it is harder to reposition. I smooth it down with palm pressure, and give it time to set. Usually an hour or so. Then I run my blocker over it with some pressure to stick it down. I don't really mess with testing folds on anything for a day or so. The glue may not have a mature bond and get some piping in the creases. Seems like once you break a bond, it never quite sets down as tight, even if it is still tacky. Let it dry all the way and then try it out.

Ed, I like the open front round bottom edger. I am not sure if HC carries them, but would suspect they are dealing with the Osborne line. Nothing against Osbornes, because I have and use some. They are a good general line and across the board make good tools. There are individual tool makers that may make a particular tool better than Osborne though. Like has been said, Osborne sells you the makings of a tool. You have to finish the sharpening yourself. For the quality of work you are doing, I think you could justify getting and using better edgers that are more user friendly. My personal favorites are the open front round edgers. Rons tools sells nice ones and so does Jeremiah Watt. I have had both and other than price, I have very little difference between them. Jeremiah's #1 size is the smallest he now makes and should work for most of your needs. With no toes in front, they will do a slot too, and the blade is "sweepy" enough I like the control. A cinch to sharpen and strop, you are not working down in a slot like other edgers, and they cut a round profile to start with. I have Jeremiah's vizzard pattern edgers also. His and Ron's tools edgers both came ready to go to work. My wife likes bisonette edgers and played with Bob Douglas' edgers at a show. With the design, you can't cut too deep. They are like edgers with training wheels. Bob has the angle and bend at the tip of the shank figured out. His are the real thing. Because of the design, you can cut on the push or pull stroke. Sharpening bisonettes is a little trickier. You have to make sure you aren't whacking against the opposing edge when you strop. Just something to watch out for. We have Bob's smallest size and the #4 for heavy work. I expect we will fill in sizes next time we see him. You can probably bank that anything from Bob is ready to use straight off too. Jeremiah's website is www.ranch2arena.com. Ron's is www.ronstools.com. You can buy Bob's tools directly from him (Sheridan, WY) or through Sheridan Leather Outfitters. I have found all of these guys to be easy to deal with directly and helpful advice. Barry King is making hand tools also. I have not played with his, although I should have. If you decide to go with Osbornes, shop around. As a "for instance" - one major leathercraft seller lists the Osborne round knife for $99, Siegels regular price is about half that, and I think it is still on sale for $35 now. Just because the big catalog craft suppliers sell some cheap things cheaply, doesn't mean everything in their catalog is priced in the same manner.

Barra, One of my treasured times was when a retired Irish harness maker spent an afternoon with me several years ago. He took a rasp to my stitching horse to shape the jaws to his liking. He liked to oil awl blades by wiping them on his nose, although admitted you might run dry by the end of a session. I am sure he went to the forehead then. He found about 2 awls he liked and we used those. The rest were saved for later. He taught me to tie in buckles at the ends of straps like they do "ta home". Later we took my rejected awls and he sharpened them into darts. I learned the pleasures of Bushmill's Black and "awl darts". Apparently an old Irish harness shop pastime. The evening ended with him buying my Ron's edgers for around $120 apiece to show the boys ta home what good stuff we have to work with.

John, I use quite a lot pigskin lining on things. I have not had a problem with the glue bleeding through. Once in a while I will get a "wet spot" but that must be solvent. It evaporates pretty quickly and is not sticky. One thing to watch with pigskin is pinholes. Because it is so thin they are more common than with other types of lining. When I pull a new piece, I hold it up to the light and cut out any pinholes right off the bat. Glue will go through the tiniest pinhole and mess you up. I attach the linings with the cement still a little wet. If it is too dry and I get a wrinkle, it can be a pain to pull and reposition. I am attaching a picture of a Bible cover I did a few years ago for a bullfighter. He sketched out the design and sent it to me. He wanted the cross done in "old turquoise" and silver. This cover is one of my favorites. This cross probably gets more comments than most others I do. I think Chan Geer has a book with some cross patterns, and I am sure a Google image search will bring up a bunch.

Here is another idea. I make quite a few of these throughout the year. I buy a regular hardside briefcase. I have done these on the aluminums, the leather covered board style, and the leatherettes and fiberboards, depending on customer's wishes. I attach them with 3/8 Hi Dome engraved conchos from Hansen's. They are basically a small engraved domed concho and look like engraved spots with a post and screw back. Weavers used to sell them too, but Hansen's are across town. On some I just use the HiDomes, on others I use conchos in the corners. I have attached a couple examples.

Siegels (www.siegelofca.com) sell horse butts. As far as sides, they have had them intermittantly, but I can't recall them recently. I think the only tannery that processes horsehide was/is Horweens in Chicago. Now that horse slaughter has been effectively shut down in the US by humane interests, I don't know how that affects their supply and future.

Bugsy, Treemaking is probably even now, way more individual and varied than saddlemaking. One of those skills that a guy really has to continually learn, relearn, and change with the times. There are so many factors with building a tree that I don't think a book could ever do it justice. It is not one of those I'll make my own for the experience or to save money projects in my view. The selection of what type of wood(s) to use is first. Then the bars have to be evenly shaped, and contoured to fit a particular build of horse, The cantle has to be symetrically shaped. The fork style has to be selected and shaped symmetrically. The horn is chosen and fastened onto the fork. The cantle and fork are attached to bars allowing for the proper angles for the horse, the proper spread, and the proper angles on each side. The cantle and fork need to be squarely put on the bars also, and that they have the proper slope for funtion and comfort. The wood working part is over. The nuances of getting all this right is paramount. It has to fit the horse, the rider, and be functional for the intended use. No secrets here. You could get anyone's tree you admire, strip the rawhide and take all the measurements and contours right off it. The issue would be shaping another one exactly the same. Next we have to buy or make rawhide. Then we have to cut drippy. sopping rawhide to cover the tree with the pattern layout and the seams placed correctly. Then we get to make holes along these seams and lace these pieces together to encase the tree. Not done yet, we have to dry the trees at the right rate to make sure the rawhide shrinks evenly to prevent big gaps in the seams, or twists our woodworking project out of square, size, and certainly usefulness. Then we get to cover it with our varnish of choice. If we are making them for someone else, then we get to send it out, and have them complain that a certain measurement is 1/4" off from what they ordered because they measure it differently than the rest of the planet. I have never built a tree and have no serious plans to. Those guys work too hard to make the good ones for what they get. The UPS driver that hauls it makes more, and dang sure has better benefits. I am not trying to sound facetious here. There are so many variables and places that it can go wrong, along with the specialized equipment and knowledge that it is just safer to buy a tree from someone who knows what they are doing. When you look at what goes into a tree, and what you are getting for your money buying a tree, it is a bargain no matter what you pay. Trees are either mass produced in a factory setting, or handmade one at a time in a single man shop. Either way, a heck of a lot of work and experience went into it. I'd rather spend my time covering it. Legend has it that one of the big makers (Taylor? Visalia?) had a particular axe in their shop. If one of their trees ever sored your horse, they used that axe on it and you got to watch it done. Any tree I made would not pass the axe on the way out the door before it got to the horse I am sure.

OldGringo, Welcome to the group. Do not eat any cyber doughnuts offered by any members, especially from ND. He lives pretty far from town, and takes the dog with him to pick them up. Where about in NoCal are you? There are a few of us here, Ryan Cope and I both live in Oakdale. In reference to the spring grass, we are getting a pretty good little rain this morning. Hopefully this takes the lid off the dry fall. A little sun then and we are set. The only grass growing seems to be in the driveway at our house.

Johanna, I keep a written record and pics. A couple early ones escaped without the pictures. The ultimate record keeping award should probably go to Hamley's. They numbered their saddles, looks like from pretty early on. I bought the hull of an old Association last spring. The lady I bought it from gave me the info she got from Hamley's when she bought it and sent them the number. They sent her a photcopy of the orginal order form, and also the original receipt when they shipped it. They also sent a "certificate of authenticity". The saddle was made in 1928. I don't have it in front of me, but it cost something like $78 and shipping was $1.20. Hamley's may still have a deal on their website to look up their saddles by serial number too.

I have had a running email deal with a guy today who is relining some skirts. Fairly common repair, and it started out to be a "Barge vs. rubber cement discussion". He was not relishing the 1-2 hours of picking stitches, and wanted to use the old stitch line. It is an older family handed down saddle, and sentimental as well as moderate collectible value. If you use a seam ripper, flat knife, or anything else between the sheepskin and the leather, it cuts the stitches, and never fails, the lock is buried in the skirt. You have to take each stitch out one at a time. They are old, they are hard, they don't want to come out. You cheer when you can pull a tag and get 3-4 stitches at once. . About 10 years ago, an older maker took pity on a younger guy and shared this tip. Since my pal who has done this sort of work for longer than me hadn't heard it, he shamed me into passing it along. Before you do anything on the wool side, take a stitch groover on the top side and run it over the stitches. One with the loop blade like Osborne's compass style groover works best. Running it over the stitches cuts and removes the top stitch, or severely weakens it at least. Start pulling on the woolskin and it pulls the stitches out as you pull it off. If the woolskin is weak and tears, you still can get the bottom thread and pull that. I took him 11 minutes total to skin the stitches and pull the wool off. BTW, this also works for handsewn things too.

Lindsay, I know we had this discussion on another list as well. I am agreeing with you that a properly setup needle and awl machine will do a tighter stitch with less fuss and looks better. If I knew more about the mechanics, and parts and support were not quite the issue I would probably have one. Other than Campbell-Bosworth and Weaver selling the reconditioned models, is there anyone else? In my area, to buy a used one is fairly easy. To buy one that may not be the 600# anchor is the question. A lot of these older shops have a couple sitting around - one they use and one for parts. They have been patched, wired, and taped together. Other than packing it up and freighting it to Texas or Illinois, not much available for help. The old guys that can work on these machines are mostly retired or passed on. I see that as the issue for me. With the short arm needle feeds selling for around $2000, they have made that market more affordable for more casual users. The long arm big brother machines are the logical step up for most people then. The support is there, parts and accessories are a day or two away, and that is the popularity. I think the needs of the manufacturer vs the casual user is the key here. One thing I have done since we talked last. I sold the Adler 205. I have two 2000s right now. One newer one and one when they still built on the Juki frame. I normally sew in a narrower and deeper groove. I run a tighter bobbin tension, a tighter top tension, and can usually get by with one size smaller needle on new work than most use. It makes a pretty good stitch and smaller needle hole. Not a good needle &awl stitch but closer. Better than a bad needle and awl stitch. I haven't tapped or rubbed any stitch lines in quite a while. It will pucker chap leather, so I have to back off a little there. On some of the harder leather on repairs, I have to move up a needle, but those holes are generally already there.

Regis, TLF sells or at least used to sell a little dial-face leather thickness gauge. Pretty decent price, and I am sure it is available from other sources too. I use mine all the time. It never strays far from my splitter area.

Tim, You just asked me about the one foot setup I got with the "saddler's package" and have not used. I have the harness maker's presser foot and have never hooked it on. It is supposed to be for sewing close to buckles and hardware. I put full or tapered fillers in my breast collars, bronc halters, and other straps that are about the same thickness as the ring. There is no lump from the ring and I can sew as close to the end of the filler as I need to. I just use my double toe and normal middle foot, or a single toe and foot setup. I use the normal flat slotted plate. Even doing a repair on something with no filler, I can get close enough backing up. There is enough lift on the walking feet and presser foot to get close enough. If I need to get closer in to a #5705 type buckle I use the holster plate. That raises up the work enough I can tip the buckle back more out of the way. If you are anticipating doing different sewing applications, it might pay to look into getting the package of feet, plates, and guides. If they can price out the package well enough might be cheaper than buying a couple sets of feet individually. I never thought I would use the blanket feet (I have) and would have thought I probably should have played with the harness foot before now I guess. I use both the single and double roller edge guides a fair amount too. One thing about getting the attachments, the 441 clones show no signs of going away. You never know what your next machine will be, and all these should pretty well fit most of them. If not, there is someone out there who wants the foot you don't. After the Christmas orders, I will play with the harness foot and see what it does. Ed, With my stirrup plate I use the right toe toe foot and the narrow center presser foot. On my newer 2000, the double toe foot uses a wider center foot than the R/L feet. I don't know how universal that is from one seller to the next. If I use the double toe and the wide center foot, the walking feet are just barely on the right edge of the plate, and not on the left at all. They can push down, walk off, and twist the work and I sew crooked. The narrow center foot and the R foot will walk on the right lip. On the used Juki 2000 (from Ferdco originally too), the stirrup plate has a little wider ridge on the left than the new one, and not sure how it compares on the right.

Regis, I use mine several times a week. In fact I think I spend as much time changing feet and plates as as I do sewing. Another reason to keep the second 2000 and set them each up differently. I use the holster plate whenever I am sewing gussets into firm leather, like on saddles bags and purses or zippered gussets into dayplanners. It allows the work to be up and provides an area for the gusset to stand up and and sew tight. Anyone who has ever NOT sewn across a wrinkle on a gusset corner can leave now. Since we are all still here, that is what I use it for. I also use the stirrup plate for this too. The holster plate is flat across the top and both sides of the slot are the same width. The flat top makes it more stable for long runs with no sewing into a bend. The stirrup plate is rounded across the top and will make a sharper corner. It will reduce the turning radius and let me sew tighter corners in 3/4 gusseted things like purses, shaving kits, and briefcases. It also has a narrower lip to the left of the slot. That lets me get closer to the wood on sewn stirrups, and sharper gussets also.

Dink, Not to jump in sideways here, but have you looked for an Adler 205-64? I had one and it will sew 12-14 oz all day and not break a sweat. It is a cylinder arm machine, and like Art said - they are tanks.

Right off the bat this is a pretty sparing connection to leatherwork in general. I picked up a copy of a 3 song demo CD from Colleen Watt last weekend. It is by a 15 yr old young lady named Adrian. She has a full debut CD coming out called "Highway 80". The CD is due out around the end of the month. This little girl wrote all but one song on the CD, and is a TALENT in writing the ones I heard, and dang sure can sing 'em. She wrote one about Dale Harwood. There have been songs where saddles are mentioned for sure, but I am hard pressed to remember one about a saddlemaker. Her website is www.buckaroogirl.com. Turn up the sound, allow your computer to run the music. Each of her webpages plays a different song. The Life and Times of Dale Harwood is on her home page. I don't know her, have no connection. I am thinking Adrian will be getting some orders. She is going to be on the main stage at the Elko gathering, and deserves to be there.

Bev, There are several other suppliers of leather tools besides Tandy. We have have a few threads going in the saddle section, leather tools, and suppliers sections which discuss different tools. There is also a section in resources in the saddle section discussing the DVDs and instructionals. I would expect that you don't have a resale number. Weavers are wholesale only. Others have a website and you could look at them to get a bit of an idea of tools and price ranges. Jeremiah Watt (www.ranch2arena.com) has stamps, tools, and DVDs. Ron Edmonds (www.ronstools.com) are good. Hidecrafter sell tools. Siegel of California (www.siegelofca) sells leather and tools. They have Osborne as well as other French and English made tools. Other tool makers and sellers are Wayne Jueschke (Elko, NV), he makes stamps, mauls, and knives. Barry King (Sheridan WY) makes stamps, mauls, and cutting tools. Bob Douglas (Sheridan WY) sells old tools - stands behind them. My thoughts are that unless you have unlimited time to sit there and money to buy duplicates or possibly used up or incomplete equipment - avoid ebay. Buy outright what you need. Ebay is the place to buy entry level sets that often sell for more than new. Also a place to buy collectible or obscure tools you may not need early on. It pays to know what you are bidding on there. There are tool collectors, who are just that - collectors and traders, not leather people. Leather tools are the hot thing right now. They are running on anything with Gomph, HF Osborne, Rose, and the other oldtime makers. A lot of these are good, useable tools and were designed correctly, but theses folks collect, show, and trade among themselves. They are not users, and will pay more than the useful value.

Pete, A few "old guy rule of thumbs" from different mentors. 1. The margin from the stitchline to the edge should be the thickness. i.e., If the piece is 3/16 thick, the margin is 3/16. 2. The stitch length should be equal to the margin. i.e., if the margin is 3/16, the stitches should be 3/16 apart - about 5 per inch. 3. There are no rules, do what looks good. I usually true up my edges, stitch, and then edge the piece. I don't know why, other than that is how I was taught. Regarding the rules above. Sometimes I will stitch closer than the thickness. I have also come dangerously close on thick piecs I have sewn closer to the edge with a right toe foot, like on a belt inlayed and with spots. Have had a few slip off, and bad words heard in my general vicinity. Some things that are really thick, I may sew and then trim the margin to be closer than the thickness. Generally that rule about the margin and thickness being the same gives me good stability sewing in machines I have/had though. Sometimes those old guys really did make the mistakes and want to teach us not to. When you sew it the way I was taught, and then use the right size edger, it usually works. Old men are generally wise.

It really depends on a lot of factors - skirt patterns, a flate plate rigging uses more leather than most dee ring setups, pretty open. I have never got by with less than two sides, and usually get into a third side on at least half of them. I am getting my patterns down a little closer, not as much trimming, but still 2 sides minimum. I may get two longer sides, and not get the yield of two deeper sides. For the first one, I was lucky to get by with three sides.

Beeza, And you can always get a table with a cut out for the cylinder arm to make it a flatbed machine. Some suppliers offer them as an optional accessory. I made mine bigger from plywood, and got the folding table leg set from the hardware store. It sits about 5" lower that the top of the arm. That works for sewing gusseted things like saddlebags and ropebags. If I need the table flush to the top, I slip sections of PVC pipe over the bottom of the legs to raise it up. My wife gets credit for that tip - she saw it on HGTV or one of those satellite channels. I did the same thing to raise my cutting table, $2 worth of PVC saves $$ bottles of Aleve from bending over slightly. PVC ergonomics.

An average width for a gullet is probably 6-1/2" and crawling wider now. That may or may not be helpful. A few questions to kind of help us out here. Whose trees are you looking at? If they are stock trees from a production company, then you may need to try a couple different widths and bar angles to see which tree is closest to what you need. Yeah it's a hassle to try them and send them back, but not the hassle of putting a lot of work into something that doesn't fit. The trial and error fitting system unfortunately is still pretty prevalent. Becasue every maker's trees and bars are generally a little different, I don't think anyone can reliably go from a description of wide/narrow/meaty withers/peaked withers and tell anyone exactly what to get. Then it gets into what are you doing with the horses? How many different ones and different builds do you ride? What kind of padding. Rigging styles. Are these horses level or built downhill? If you look in the section on Choosing the right saddle for the horse, there are a few threads that will help. There are two on Dennis Lane's system, and a pretty lively discussion on saddle fit in general. Gullet width is really only a small part of getting a closer fit than shooting in the dark. The bar patterns, how much they "open up" in the front, the shape on the front pads and where they are designed to sit by the tree maker, bar angles have changed over time, and now some guys are going to 95 degrees. How do you determine what you need? As the Nikkels say at the bottom of each of their posts, no two tree makers do it the same. Dennis's card system for measuring is about as simple and repeatable as it gets. How many treemakers will get on board with it and when is the factor here now. I think Dennis posted that he thinks a lot of horses in the US are ridden on trees that are too wide. We have had it pounded into us that gullet clearance is a big factor in saddle fit - reduce leverage on the horn, all that. One way to get a lower gullet is to widen the spread. We get the two-finger clearance and think everything is OK. Problem is the saddle is tipping forward, the full double rigging is pulling it down, and the front points are digging into the shoulders. The lower it gets, the worse it gets in this case. All this said, what are you riding now? Does it fit you horses well enough? Who made that tree if it does? What does it measure? That is at least a baseline to start from.