bruce johnson

Welcome Brian, That is the kind of work to be noticed around this forum. Feel free to jump in anywhere, just because a topic is old doesn't mean it is done. Like Jon, I have been admiring your work for a while too.

Jennifer, To get this back on track, you still have to fit bars to the back of your mare. That is the first order of business. Or the first order of business after she gets into shape whichever way you approach it. I'm with Jim, I'd get her in shape and then approach it. I think we all agree that she is built a little downhill. Picture angles and such can make that look one way or the other, but she probably won't shrink much in hind leg length, and might gain a little in front legs, will fill in and tighten up, but at four those growth plates are all but closed. You have what you have, and the lines down her side wherever you place them are going to be downhill. That is part of her, and a ton (no pun intended) of horses are that way. I've got one, and so have most people who have been around. People ride a lot of them and do just fine. The most square inches of bar on her with the least bridging and no edges digging in will fit her the best. That is the simple answer. The harder answer is - that is done with bar shape, spread, and angles. That has to be determined. What maker does to the topside is somewhat dependent on the bottom. Not always. but mostly. David, I have been following a lot of what you have written and on your website for at least a year and a half. Some I understand, and some I don't. I know you have some other ideas than many tree makers. I have seen the line drawings, but would be interested in seeing pictures of where your trees differ, and where you position them on the live horse. That would probably clear up a lot of the confusion. My seats generally have the same or more scoop in the side profile as the ones on your website, and really are not a lot different than many other handmakers. We may all be sitting pretty much in the same place? Maybe start a new topic to keep this one on track. I have to laugh on the painting. I am glad I wasn't a knight in 1500. If the live horse was bogged down that much in the back as in the painting, I am not sure my ride would have held up long enough to get to the battle, let alone pack me through it. I wonder how many of those mounted knights ended up in the infantry pretty early in the fight.

Kevin, I would just do a beveled raised area more or less in the same general outline, but just kind of fade into it with a beveler and matter. Almost like laying it on a cloud sort of shape. No distinct straight lines, and gentle curves in a long oval pattern roughly mirroring the outline of the stamp. My other thoughts would be to lay it on a wooden plank/sign and then bevel around that if you want to be linear with it. I think I have a demo of that, If not I have a piece in front of me I could repost.

I get used printers or press blankets from a local print shop. These are sheets used in printing presses by larger shops. One side is a rubberized , and the other side is cloth. They clean them with solvent, and I have never had a ruboff problem. The rubber side down on leather stays in place, I can write ID and info on the cloth side with a marker. The material is stiff enough I can run a knife or stylus around the edge and it holds position. It is flexible enough to sew for fitting models. Works up about like 4 oz leather. Dandy for sending a custom mockup to someone far away when you don't have the item to fit. These are not cheap to buy new, but when they start to wear, the print shops give them to me. I make all my cutting patterns from these. For large patterns I can sew or tape sections together. I can write things like gusset lengths needed, zipper lengths, and make registration marks for grooves and creases. I also use it to cover my anvil when I am setting rivets on damp leather to prevent black marks. Some guys use it to line tool boxes, or to protect blade edges in racks. Cuts with knives or scissors easily.

JW, My diamond is the cousin to yours. Mine is the Santa Fe diamond from Jeremiah. It has a distinct cut border. It is dang hard for me to bring back if you get off with it. I do a border with it once in a while, but I wreck most anything else. I saw a binder a guy did with it a the NFR a few years ago. I congratulated him on a nice job with that stamp. He had an $800 price on it. He said if he sold it, he would still be losing money. The first three tries went into the trash. I told him I could relate, but I mostly toss checkbooks. We exchanged condolences. This is one stamp that consistantly kicks my butt. Wayne Christenson had one made up by Bob Beard with a beadline type border. he said you just overlap the beadline and it keeps it lined up better. I could see that. Anne, Yes, it was Wayne's saddle he sent me the pics of.

Freak, Sorry I was too busy laughing until now to reply.

Johanna, I come from a long line of Scandanavian snoose chewers. I never smoked much, but started chewing Copenhagen regularly when I was about 12. I got to where it was just part of me. It was just something you do dawn to dusk and beyond. Nothing wakes you up like rubbing a little Copenhagen spit in your eyes at 3:00 am to get your forehead off the steering wheel. I never took those monster dips, and most people never knew I chewed, they never saw me spit (which was true, I didn't much). A lot of people never knew until I quit and it wasn't there. I took a physical for an insurance renewal, answered that I didn't smoke because that was the question. The blood test came back with nicotine off the scale. I got the option of paying smoker's rates (not covered by the employer) or quitting. If I took option B, they could test me anytime, and if positive threats of smoker's rates retroactive. It was going to mean that the $4.25 can of Cope could now cost me about 4 grand a year for insurance back then. Money was the winner. I quit cold, and guys say it is harder than quitting smoking or anything they used legal or not, and there isn't methadone for Cope. It took about a week of real misery. I could feel my heart (probably not a good thing?), cranky, nervous, checking between the ol' cheek and gum, sleeping at 2:00 pm and not sleeping at 2:00 am. I even packed an empty can so I wouldn't get that feeling like when you lose your wallet. I am still around guys that chew, and when I smell it, I crave it. Sixteen years later, I still like that smell. It is easier to say no now, but if I took a dip, I could be back in the buggy. Don't weaken now.

JW, Looks like a good one. I am especially impressed with anyone who can run that stamp. Thjis makes the second saddle In 3 days I have seen with that diamond. I don't know whether to wave the white flag and sell mine or buck up and learn to use it. Good job.

Darcy, Thanks for the pics. Here are some from an older Visalia I have in for a cosmetic restoration. The cantle measures 12-1/2x6. It is serial number 24589. Not sure exactly where that dates it, I need to call Griff. It is a pretty cool old saddle.

I have heard the definiton that it is widest at the base. Not sure from who. It is a little more defineable than another I heard. "It's narrow, and high, and no dish, I just know it when I see it". I might suggest we open this up just a wee bit and define how we each determine a regular vs. shovel vs. Taylor as well.

I am with Elton. Goats smell, but nothing is cuter than a baby goat, children and grandchildren included. We have been intermittantly in the goat business depending on the market. My son has traded in them since he was about 6 years old. Regarding the tanning using urine. I am sure it is probably done somewhere. I can only envision the collection centers. That said, ShopTalk had a series on some of the Mexican and South American tanneries. That was one of the questions that came up. Apparently there is a tree that some tanneries use that grows down there, and it does have a smell similar to urine. That is supposedly where the smell comes from, and I am sure a lot of the rumors of urine-tanning are a perpetuated story. Goats are consumed probably on every continent. Most all of these hides are tanned in foreign countries, and they use what they have growing there or close by.

Jennifer, As you will find if you are here long, my posts are usually a bit longer too. Thanks for the questions, you are not alone. As the Nikkels have posted, many of the major production saddles regardless of cost are made on mostly production trees from 2-3 makers. It is entirely possible that all the saddles you tried are on trees with similar bar pattterns and measurements. I can understand the old Billy Cook fitting that type horse. They did back then, until the Doc Bar influence really took over. I can share your concern with the tack shop person fitting your horse for a saddle. Most everything they have may be the same bar patterns ans spreads as mentioned. I have seen a tackshop employee actually give the following advice. "Quarter horse bars are for quarter horses. The semi quarterhorse bars are for breeds like the Paints and Appaloosas, because most of them are half quarterhorse now you know". You can't argue with logic like that! Regarding fitters, probably a step up but a concern there too. Are they going to be able to tell you what will fit, or just tell you what you have doesn't fit? Are they going to be able to tell you what to order and how to order it? Some are good, and some are self-titled fitters selling special pads or things that have not been proven by anyone but their anecdotal experience. If they have something like a pad that will make any saddle fit, it won't. I think the jury is still kind of out on the dry spot deal. I am not sure of the significance of small vs. large dry spots. Is the hair messed up? Does the horse get sore? Does it swell up a few minutes after unsaddling? What kind of padding? What rigging position(here we go again)? How long do you ride and what do you do? Level ground or hills? It has been reported that the production saddles (and by relation the trees in them) acceptably fit about 80% (or more in another place I read) of the horses out there. Whether those numbers are high or low is open to debate and depends on defintions of acceptable, stuff like that. I don't think that any tree maker from the bottom enders to the top are intentionally making a tree that will hurt a horse. Some are stuck in the past, and others are ahead of themselves though. If all of the Circle Ys or TexTans are hurting a bunch of horses and they start getting them back, you can bet that their tree suppliers are going to hear about it. Likewise with the Leddys, Larry Coates, Dale Martins, Cactus, or Dale Chavez. As Nikkels said, there are different quality levels in trees, and saddles can be a price point purchase for a lot of people. They sell those Billy Shaw saddles made up on ebay for less money than a good handmade tree. It is up to the saddlemaker to decide whose trees they are going to use, and what they are going to charge. There are some guys sticking $600 trees in $1800 saddles, and guys using $150 trees in $5000 saddles. All in what their comfort level is with their treemaker. My guess is if you have been through the saddles you have, the Leddy may not be any different. You have tried the ones that work for a lot of people. Your horse may well fall into the "average isn't going to work" percentage. That's OK, and you have realized that you need some help getting one to fit. You are probably going to have to go to someone to determine what combination is going to work. Some are comfortable eyeballing the horse, others will do everything from bent wires to casts of the back. The Dennis Lane card system is pretty easy to do. It may take something as simple as wider spread or flatter bars, or a whole setup of spread/angle/shape of the bars to fit your horse. I am sure you will get other opinions here too. Good discussion points and thanks again for bringing them to us.

Weavers do make a hydraulic model. There are a few design issues with it though. The top is basically a flat plank covdered with neoprene, nails will eat the neoprene. The tree is secured to it with two straps that go across the seat. Would be a problem if you shape ground seats on the stand. The drawdown strap attaches to the base, and you raise the height to tension it. If you need to change height, you have to remove the strap, lengthen it, and reattach it. Also once attached, you can't pivot the top around. There is a univeral setup under the top to tilt it in two directions. Apparently it can let go at inopportune times. It runs $550 with the strap and spreader. Ron (Ron's Tools) makes one also. The top is a contoured and covered with fleshout chap leather. It will hold a tree pretty well with no strap. The drawdown strap attaches to the post. You can raise, lower, or spin it with the strap in place. There is a tip up arm for tilting the tree or saddle up from the back. It adjusts in several positions with a pin, it won't just let go and drop. Webprice listed at $820 for the stand and $130 for the tip up arm attachment. Even if you make your own, I would look at Ron's website (www.ronstools) and check out how he does the topside.

The bar just got raised a little more. Outstanding and inspiring work.

Harvey, Let me be the second to tell you - nice work.

Russell, The old joke is to tie a set of Carharts and 5 buckle overshoes onto the front of your truck and start driving. When you finally get somewhere that a local asks what they are, you have found your new home. I have to explain that to some folks around here. Remember grandma's advice - cover up your head or you will catch double pneumonia, then you'll be sorry. We fly into RC next Sunday, so I expect we'll see some snirt in the shaded spots in the hills.

Another member (Harvey) had me post this portfolio he made up . From Harvey---- "This was made for a friend of mine who's in real estate. The front cover is a Tandy catalogue cover, available on their on-line wbsite. The back cpver is just a filler piece I made up. I was going to have a Count The Mistakes contest, but since entries would have to be between 35 and 60, I shelved that idea (for the time being). The quote by the way, is a modification of a Mark Twain and Will Rogers quote. - Harvey"

Been there, done that. A few things and everyone can add to the list - 1) The stand at the proper height. There is nothing worse than bending over a cantle all afternoon. I used to have two drawdowns, one lower and one higher for wahtever fit best for the job at hand. Neither one were right for cantles. Also helpful to be able to tip up the back of the stand and tip to one side or the other. This helps to see underneath, and puts you in a more consistant position. The hydraulic stands with the tip up arm are made for this. I did 4 recovers of the leather trim on rawhide cantles a couple weeks ago. It was awesome, I could stand up afterwards, and never felt crampy. 2) the right awl/needle combination. A slim blade awl and then a needle the size of an 8 penny nail won't get it. A sharp awl is necesary, but if you are pulling needles with pliers, it is time lost and extra effort. 3) Bleeding fingertips on the left hand are just part of it for me sometimes. I have enough calluses that I don't use finger cots much, but am not above a bandaid on the little fingers if they get sore. Cuts through a callus are not fun, but they tend to heal fast. 4) I have used the jerk needles and the saddle stitch. Depends on the cantle, and I have used both on some. Anybody have any thoughts one way or the other?

I am cleaning out some programs on the ol' laptop today. I am finding that I have J2SE Runtime Environment 5.0 in updates 10, 11, and 6. I have Java s Run Time SE v1.4 2_03. I have Java 6 Update 2,3,and 5. Java SE Runtime 6 Update 1. Each of these are anywhere from 130 to 159 MB or so. Can I safely dump any of them? I have an HP laptop and XP.

I learned a lot about computer kept inventory and automatic item subtraction at work. We were test monkeys for a veterinary software package several years ago. What I learned is you are always out. There is no accounting for the pills you dropped in the sink, the 3.2 ml you gave and it took 3.0 off the inventory (after a while it adds up), or the bottle the other clinic borrowed and hasn't returned. David is right, you need to do physical counts. It really shouldn't matter how you do them, as long as it is consistant. What finally worked the best for us was to have an 'inventory side" and a "using side". When a bottle was taken from the inventory and opened, the whole bottle was immediately removed from the inventory. Easier to count bottles than pills. We have pretty much abandoned it now, and look at the shelves to decide what to order. What I do with the leather business has evolved. I set up some templates in my spreadsheet program that do the calculations. I have a monthly expense report I keep. When I get an order in, I break it down into sections for a monthly expense sheet - office items and expenses, tools, shipping in, shipping out, inventoried supplies, and non-inventoried supplies. Most of these categories are pretty self explanatory. The non-inventoried supplies are the things like sponges, nails, screws, little tedious to count things that are not higher dollar items. Inventoried items are bigger volume things that are mostly used up and turned over several times a year, but accounted for. When I total these up for the month it gives me an idea of that month's expenses - less overhead, travel, and a few others accounted for elsewhere. I also keep inventory sheets (files) for each item. I start with a Jan 1st count of how much, average cost for the last year, and dollar value. It is transferred over from the EOY for the previous year. Each time that item comes in, the date/supplier/quantity and cost per unit are entered. The spreadsheet totals the value and adds it to the running total at the bottom. At the end of the year it gives me a total for on-hand plus orders for the year, the average cost, and a final value based on that average cost. I total these files up, add the shipping in and out, the non-inventoried supplies, subtract the EOY inventory value, and it gives me a COGS. At the bottom of the inventory sheets is a place for EOY counts. It multiplies the amount by the year's average cost to get a final EOY inventory value. This is carried over to be the beinning inventory for the next year. A few things I do by convention. I estimate bottles by fourths - one fourth, half, or 3/4. I estimate leather by eye, if my sides of a certain leather average 23 sg ft, and I have about a half, then I have 11-1/2 sg ft. I don't figure the scrap bins at all. I estimate small hardware (things I want to keep track of casts) by eye, I don't hard count rivets, Chicago screws, or the like. Buckles, rigging hardware, and that kind of stuff are hard counted. Thread is by half or whole spool. There are places where I could short myself. Sometimes I have a big amount of a special buy leather and the price is low. I carry it over, use it up, and over the course of a year, I order a couple more at a higher price. At EOY, the cheap initial inventory has diluted the cost of the orders through the year. What I am carrying over is actually less value than replacement. One of thse actual cost vs. average cost accounting things that could bite you carried over for a long time. On those I watch myself and try to use it up before year's end and not carry a value over. There is a reason that suppliers have an end of period inventory sale. They don't want to carry it over either. Another thing this does do is force me to monitor inventory costs. If a new order of leather is higher, then I need to refigure prices on those items that use it now. I used to get nibbled on there. If I have a big order coming up, I need to get with my supplier and make sure they are stocked with what I need and aren't planning a price increase. I got bit bad there once too. All this paperwork seems like a hassle, but once I got it set up, it isn't too bad. It takes a little time, but beats the first couple years I didn't keep it up as well. Totaled up, maybe two hours a month on paperwork now.

We have had a few folks looking for the Fast Buckle stirrup buckles that previously were developed and sold by Ben Veach. I have a few customers who prefer them, and so did some others. Doug used them in the saddle he just posted. Last year Ben sold the rights to another company, and everyone was pretty close mouthed about who bought them, and whether they would be available. I got my new Walsall Hardware catalog yesterday and they are showing them as a #107 Adjustable Stirrup Buckle. They only have them listed in 2-1/2" for now. I checked their website, and it doesn't appear they have showed up there yet.

Doug, Give us some more pics buddy. I think that seat jockey line is interesting. I am liking it a lot. What tree? For the kids or you? One thing I see is that I would have made the cutout for the back dee have the border carry up into the cut instead of stamping to the edge. Also the froint jockey tip being pointed with all those cool sweepy curves just looks a bit out of place to me. Maybe round it off, especially since it sits up there a bit? Overall a really wolfy looking roping rig. It's saved to my "other guys" file.

Rayban, I used to use the red handled ones a lot. I liked them, and was sorry to see them go. I never tried to fix them, just tossed and replaced. I have a couple others I use. Osborne makes one in a similar shape at a decent enough price. One thing I found with the Osbornes is the the chuck is not as durable as the Tandy red ones. I tend to have them split out after a while. I get my money's worth out of them, but it is an issue for me. They always get loose about halfway across something major, and no backups. One thing I do is shorten all my awl handles. Even the shortest one from Bob Douglas got shortened. On the red ones and the Osborne equivalent, I take the back knob off. I was taught to palm my awl and it gives me more control for the smaller blades. I chuck the frogsticker blade into a shoe awl with the leather cap - likewise cut off, but not quite as short to the tip. I also grind one side flat on my handles. Two reasons, the first is too keep it rolling off my bench, damaging the tip, and making me say bad words, the other reason is that I orient the blade the in relation to the flat spot. That way my fingers grip it and I know the blade angle by feel. Another plug, Bob's are the best, and I have both slim and regular blades. I don't always treat myself to using them though. If I am sewing in cantle corners or through sheepskin where I am feeling for the tip, Bob's draw blood very easily. Diabetic finger stickers have nothing on me.

Duke, I see some with no wraps- just set and folded, and some with 6" of wraps. I usually do 4-5 wraps of 5/8" latigo, with the slit eye at the top. They are saddle string cut-offs. I then feed it up through the folded leathers and weave back down though the top couple of strands, cutting the tag off up inside the fold. I have seen some of the showier saddles with a barrel type braid instead of a wrap. That looks cool.

Art, I use TanKote or nothing. Kind of funny, on the new ones usually nothing. I try to use the pastes on the undersides the reduce squeak. I like Williams, but use Hide Rejuvenater or Saddle Butter too. I have some Black Rock, but haven't tried it yet. I tend to use TanKote especially on the cleaning jobs. It makes it look like I really did something. I think that little bit of shine just makes it loook like we did a little more work. Rundi cleans some of them, then I recondition and finish them.