bruce johnson

Todd, It depends on your definition of reasonable, but I really have liked everything I get from Trina Weber. Her website is www.weberstirrups.com. Easy to deal with. Weavers have brass bunds in their catalog. I got a pair in a deal from a shop that shut down, the brass is strap that was loose on the sides, kind of like the galvanized tin bound style. Trina bends them around the edge and they are tight.

Johanna, Thanks to you and thanks to Greg for bringing this up again. Great links, and ought to be required reading for everyone.

David, I would like to see how these trees fit on a horse. Perhaps it does work on a rider improving their horsemanship. However a guy who catches cattle for a living I think is going to have issues unless it is way different than I envision. First off, the PRCA guys are riding whoever their sponsor is - Cactus or whatever, a Billy Hogg, Tod Slone, or paying dearly for an old Howard Council. Proper horsemanship and raising the neck are the last things in their mind. They use tie downs and over and under to engage the hindquarters. I am thinking that when they reach out and stick one, they are out over the front, and the jerk is minimal now that they fade their cattle instead of set them. The jerk is forward and maybe to the side as they face. The heelers and the calf horses are getting a pretty much forward jerk. If these front bars are looking like what I envision they do, that takes a heck of a back cinch to keep them from tipping down. As far as ranch roping, it all depends on the cowboy, the horse, and the crew. Big cattle and green horses, and those calves can be hopping all over in front, beside, and behind. I think that constant pull and little jerks and more work than a rodeo run is harder on a ranch horse than a rodeo horse. The rodeo horse is set for it, the ranch horse is trying to get somewhere while all this is going on. Regarding the cutting horses. These guys are probably for the most part your brida riders. They have their feet in front ususally, and are pushing on that saddle horn to stay back. They are defintiely not up over the withers with their cracker butts in a 16-1/2" Cajun. I think a 200# non-pro being tossed forward and bracing up on the horn sticking up there is putting some force on that horn too. Probably more forward than the more downward jerk of a rope. I am not sure how those forces would factor out with vectors. The reiners in their Don Leson's or Bob's are not up over the withers either. I just have to think that most of the top horses have either really compensated for all of our mistakes, or that their are a couple ways to skin this cat. These folks are all loading their stirrups to some degree, as were the conqistadors and the dressage riders. Not to the same degree in each event and not the same throughout each movement. Not many people are sitting their like the proverbial sack of spuds while they are changing leads, doing transitions, or trying to stay in the buggy while their mount is turning a cow on the fence, or trying not to get bucked off. These are the people most of us have targeted in our businesses.

Man From Snowy River - because I like Banjo Paterson's poetry. You all know it is based on poem by Banjo Paterson written about a hundred years ago, right? I like Chisum, because because I like Ben Johnson too, I had a chance meeting with him 25 years ago in Pawhuska - a true gentleman. Memphis Belle for no particular reason. Lonesome Dove the movie was WAY better than the book it was based on. The Cowboys - yeah John Wayne dies, but it is yet another reason not to like Bruce Dern. Wargames - cool movie. Tom Horn - Steve McQueen's best, and I am a Tom Horn afficianado, he was guilty of poor judgement and drinking, probably not murder. Slapshot - My brother in law thinks it may be the most accurate sports movie ever made, I like it because it is funny (the uncut version). Breaking Away - I had a roomie from Bloomington and identifiable as an extra in several scenes, and I haven't had Noble Roman's pizza for 23 years, crave it every time I watch it. The Good Old Boys - I like Elmer Kelton's writing, and the actors were all who I'd of picked. The River of No Return because Marilyn Monroe really looks good in those jeans. Enough said.

David, Looking at the tree pictures here. Do you have one that shows the rock of the bars? At least from the front, looks like a lot of rock. Is this how you get them forward and up over the withers more, by raising the fronts through rock? I can see how that could move the rider forward. If so, doesn't this remove some of the force at the front bar pads, but then concentrates it at the low point of the bow, theoretically where the rider is sitting? Then if someone were to use the horn for more than puling themself up, wouldn't this make the whole affair tip forward and bear down on the scapulas worse. If I am reading something into this that isn't there sorry, but more pictures and where you set these on the horse would help.

I collect old books, mostly Will James, cowboy poetry, old California, western biographies, Charlie Russell, Robert Service, Banjo Paterson, and Will Ogilvie poetry. Thanks to my pal Harvey's suggestion, the buffalo (bison) skull has prominant place in the bookshelves. When I am not doing anything else, I am harassing rainbows at Lake Alpine, or browns in the Walker River.

Carr, Thanks. Actually, this is the only place I shoot lines. I will scribe in the guide lines to fill in on the "shadow" side of my makers mark, inlays, or center patterns. Otherwise I lay down one guide and roll. I did a tutorail in another topic on angled basket stamping with a template and angled basket stamping without a template. They pretty well show how I do a patch of basket.

Welcome Brian, That is the kind of work to be noticed around this forum. Feel free to jump in anywhere, just because a topic is old doesn't mean it is done. Like Jon, I have been admiring your work for a while too.

Jennifer, To get this back on track, you still have to fit bars to the back of your mare. That is the first order of business. Or the first order of business after she gets into shape whichever way you approach it. I'm with Jim, I'd get her in shape and then approach it. I think we all agree that she is built a little downhill. Picture angles and such can make that look one way or the other, but she probably won't shrink much in hind leg length, and might gain a little in front legs, will fill in and tighten up, but at four those growth plates are all but closed. You have what you have, and the lines down her side wherever you place them are going to be downhill. That is part of her, and a ton (no pun intended) of horses are that way. I've got one, and so have most people who have been around. People ride a lot of them and do just fine. The most square inches of bar on her with the least bridging and no edges digging in will fit her the best. That is the simple answer. The harder answer is - that is done with bar shape, spread, and angles. That has to be determined. What maker does to the topside is somewhat dependent on the bottom. Not always. but mostly. David, I have been following a lot of what you have written and on your website for at least a year and a half. Some I understand, and some I don't. I know you have some other ideas than many tree makers. I have seen the line drawings, but would be interested in seeing pictures of where your trees differ, and where you position them on the live horse. That would probably clear up a lot of the confusion. My seats generally have the same or more scoop in the side profile as the ones on your website, and really are not a lot different than many other handmakers. We may all be sitting pretty much in the same place? Maybe start a new topic to keep this one on track. I have to laugh on the painting. I am glad I wasn't a knight in 1500. If the live horse was bogged down that much in the back as in the painting, I am not sure my ride would have held up long enough to get to the battle, let alone pack me through it. I wonder how many of those mounted knights ended up in the infantry pretty early in the fight.

Kevin, I would just do a beveled raised area more or less in the same general outline, but just kind of fade into it with a beveler and matter. Almost like laying it on a cloud sort of shape. No distinct straight lines, and gentle curves in a long oval pattern roughly mirroring the outline of the stamp. My other thoughts would be to lay it on a wooden plank/sign and then bevel around that if you want to be linear with it. I think I have a demo of that, If not I have a piece in front of me I could repost.

I get used printers or press blankets from a local print shop. These are sheets used in printing presses by larger shops. One side is a rubberized , and the other side is cloth. They clean them with solvent, and I have never had a ruboff problem. The rubber side down on leather stays in place, I can write ID and info on the cloth side with a marker. The material is stiff enough I can run a knife or stylus around the edge and it holds position. It is flexible enough to sew for fitting models. Works up about like 4 oz leather. Dandy for sending a custom mockup to someone far away when you don't have the item to fit. These are not cheap to buy new, but when they start to wear, the print shops give them to me. I make all my cutting patterns from these. For large patterns I can sew or tape sections together. I can write things like gusset lengths needed, zipper lengths, and make registration marks for grooves and creases. I also use it to cover my anvil when I am setting rivets on damp leather to prevent black marks. Some guys use it to line tool boxes, or to protect blade edges in racks. Cuts with knives or scissors easily.

JW, My diamond is the cousin to yours. Mine is the Santa Fe diamond from Jeremiah. It has a distinct cut border. It is dang hard for me to bring back if you get off with it. I do a border with it once in a while, but I wreck most anything else. I saw a binder a guy did with it a the NFR a few years ago. I congratulated him on a nice job with that stamp. He had an $800 price on it. He said if he sold it, he would still be losing money. The first three tries went into the trash. I told him I could relate, but I mostly toss checkbooks. We exchanged condolences. This is one stamp that consistantly kicks my butt. Wayne Christenson had one made up by Bob Beard with a beadline type border. he said you just overlap the beadline and it keeps it lined up better. I could see that. Anne, Yes, it was Wayne's saddle he sent me the pics of.

Freak, Sorry I was too busy laughing until now to reply.

Johanna, I come from a long line of Scandanavian snoose chewers. I never smoked much, but started chewing Copenhagen regularly when I was about 12. I got to where it was just part of me. It was just something you do dawn to dusk and beyond. Nothing wakes you up like rubbing a little Copenhagen spit in your eyes at 3:00 am to get your forehead off the steering wheel. I never took those monster dips, and most people never knew I chewed, they never saw me spit (which was true, I didn't much). A lot of people never knew until I quit and it wasn't there. I took a physical for an insurance renewal, answered that I didn't smoke because that was the question. The blood test came back with nicotine off the scale. I got the option of paying smoker's rates (not covered by the employer) or quitting. If I took option B, they could test me anytime, and if positive threats of smoker's rates retroactive. It was going to mean that the $4.25 can of Cope could now cost me about 4 grand a year for insurance back then. Money was the winner. I quit cold, and guys say it is harder than quitting smoking or anything they used legal or not, and there isn't methadone for Cope. It took about a week of real misery. I could feel my heart (probably not a good thing?), cranky, nervous, checking between the ol' cheek and gum, sleeping at 2:00 pm and not sleeping at 2:00 am. I even packed an empty can so I wouldn't get that feeling like when you lose your wallet. I am still around guys that chew, and when I smell it, I crave it. Sixteen years later, I still like that smell. It is easier to say no now, but if I took a dip, I could be back in the buggy. Don't weaken now.

JW, Looks like a good one. I am especially impressed with anyone who can run that stamp. Thjis makes the second saddle In 3 days I have seen with that diamond. I don't know whether to wave the white flag and sell mine or buck up and learn to use it. Good job.

Darcy, Thanks for the pics. Here are some from an older Visalia I have in for a cosmetic restoration. The cantle measures 12-1/2x6. It is serial number 24589. Not sure exactly where that dates it, I need to call Griff. It is a pretty cool old saddle.

I have heard the definiton that it is widest at the base. Not sure from who. It is a little more defineable than another I heard. "It's narrow, and high, and no dish, I just know it when I see it". I might suggest we open this up just a wee bit and define how we each determine a regular vs. shovel vs. Taylor as well.

I am with Elton. Goats smell, but nothing is cuter than a baby goat, children and grandchildren included. We have been intermittantly in the goat business depending on the market. My son has traded in them since he was about 6 years old. Regarding the tanning using urine. I am sure it is probably done somewhere. I can only envision the collection centers. That said, ShopTalk had a series on some of the Mexican and South American tanneries. That was one of the questions that came up. Apparently there is a tree that some tanneries use that grows down there, and it does have a smell similar to urine. That is supposedly where the smell comes from, and I am sure a lot of the rumors of urine-tanning are a perpetuated story. Goats are consumed probably on every continent. Most all of these hides are tanned in foreign countries, and they use what they have growing there or close by.

Jennifer, As you will find if you are here long, my posts are usually a bit longer too. Thanks for the questions, you are not alone. As the Nikkels have posted, many of the major production saddles regardless of cost are made on mostly production trees from 2-3 makers. It is entirely possible that all the saddles you tried are on trees with similar bar pattterns and measurements. I can understand the old Billy Cook fitting that type horse. They did back then, until the Doc Bar influence really took over. I can share your concern with the tack shop person fitting your horse for a saddle. Most everything they have may be the same bar patterns ans spreads as mentioned. I have seen a tackshop employee actually give the following advice. "Quarter horse bars are for quarter horses. The semi quarterhorse bars are for breeds like the Paints and Appaloosas, because most of them are half quarterhorse now you know". You can't argue with logic like that! Regarding fitters, probably a step up but a concern there too. Are they going to be able to tell you what will fit, or just tell you what you have doesn't fit? Are they going to be able to tell you what to order and how to order it? Some are good, and some are self-titled fitters selling special pads or things that have not been proven by anyone but their anecdotal experience. If they have something like a pad that will make any saddle fit, it won't. I think the jury is still kind of out on the dry spot deal. I am not sure of the significance of small vs. large dry spots. Is the hair messed up? Does the horse get sore? Does it swell up a few minutes after unsaddling? What kind of padding? What rigging position(here we go again)? How long do you ride and what do you do? Level ground or hills? It has been reported that the production saddles (and by relation the trees in them) acceptably fit about 80% (or more in another place I read) of the horses out there. Whether those numbers are high or low is open to debate and depends on defintions of acceptable, stuff like that. I don't think that any tree maker from the bottom enders to the top are intentionally making a tree that will hurt a horse. Some are stuck in the past, and others are ahead of themselves though. If all of the Circle Ys or TexTans are hurting a bunch of horses and they start getting them back, you can bet that their tree suppliers are going to hear about it. Likewise with the Leddys, Larry Coates, Dale Martins, Cactus, or Dale Chavez. As Nikkels said, there are different quality levels in trees, and saddles can be a price point purchase for a lot of people. They sell those Billy Shaw saddles made up on ebay for less money than a good handmade tree. It is up to the saddlemaker to decide whose trees they are going to use, and what they are going to charge. There are some guys sticking $600 trees in $1800 saddles, and guys using $150 trees in $5000 saddles. All in what their comfort level is with their treemaker. My guess is if you have been through the saddles you have, the Leddy may not be any different. You have tried the ones that work for a lot of people. Your horse may well fall into the "average isn't going to work" percentage. That's OK, and you have realized that you need some help getting one to fit. You are probably going to have to go to someone to determine what combination is going to work. Some are comfortable eyeballing the horse, others will do everything from bent wires to casts of the back. The Dennis Lane card system is pretty easy to do. It may take something as simple as wider spread or flatter bars, or a whole setup of spread/angle/shape of the bars to fit your horse. I am sure you will get other opinions here too. Good discussion points and thanks again for bringing them to us.

Weavers do make a hydraulic model. There are a few design issues with it though. The top is basically a flat plank covdered with neoprene, nails will eat the neoprene. The tree is secured to it with two straps that go across the seat. Would be a problem if you shape ground seats on the stand. The drawdown strap attaches to the base, and you raise the height to tension it. If you need to change height, you have to remove the strap, lengthen it, and reattach it. Also once attached, you can't pivot the top around. There is a univeral setup under the top to tilt it in two directions. Apparently it can let go at inopportune times. It runs $550 with the strap and spreader. Ron (Ron's Tools) makes one also. The top is a contoured and covered with fleshout chap leather. It will hold a tree pretty well with no strap. The drawdown strap attaches to the post. You can raise, lower, or spin it with the strap in place. There is a tip up arm for tilting the tree or saddle up from the back. It adjusts in several positions with a pin, it won't just let go and drop. Webprice listed at $820 for the stand and $130 for the tip up arm attachment. Even if you make your own, I would look at Ron's website (www.ronstools) and check out how he does the topside.

The bar just got raised a little more. Outstanding and inspiring work.

Harvey, Let me be the second to tell you - nice work.

Russell, The old joke is to tie a set of Carharts and 5 buckle overshoes onto the front of your truck and start driving. When you finally get somewhere that a local asks what they are, you have found your new home. I have to explain that to some folks around here. Remember grandma's advice - cover up your head or you will catch double pneumonia, then you'll be sorry. We fly into RC next Sunday, so I expect we'll see some snirt in the shaded spots in the hills.

Another member (Harvey) had me post this portfolio he made up . From Harvey---- "This was made for a friend of mine who's in real estate. The front cover is a Tandy catalogue cover, available on their on-line wbsite. The back cpver is just a filler piece I made up. I was going to have a Count The Mistakes contest, but since entries would have to be between 35 and 60, I shelved that idea (for the time being). The quote by the way, is a modification of a Mark Twain and Will Rogers quote. - Harvey"

Been there, done that. A few things and everyone can add to the list - 1) The stand at the proper height. There is nothing worse than bending over a cantle all afternoon. I used to have two drawdowns, one lower and one higher for wahtever fit best for the job at hand. Neither one were right for cantles. Also helpful to be able to tip up the back of the stand and tip to one side or the other. This helps to see underneath, and puts you in a more consistant position. The hydraulic stands with the tip up arm are made for this. I did 4 recovers of the leather trim on rawhide cantles a couple weeks ago. It was awesome, I could stand up afterwards, and never felt crampy. 2) the right awl/needle combination. A slim blade awl and then a needle the size of an 8 penny nail won't get it. A sharp awl is necesary, but if you are pulling needles with pliers, it is time lost and extra effort. 3) Bleeding fingertips on the left hand are just part of it for me sometimes. I have enough calluses that I don't use finger cots much, but am not above a bandaid on the little fingers if they get sore. Cuts through a callus are not fun, but they tend to heal fast. 4) I have used the jerk needles and the saddle stitch. Depends on the cantle, and I have used both on some. Anybody have any thoughts one way or the other?