bruce johnson

Jack, Very cool! Nice clean work, and very stylish. These really make the statement the bearer "has arrived". Bruce Johnson

Art, Thanks for the reply. I agree the strap cutter is probably overkill for most shops unless a guy lives to make reins, latigos, or belts. What I am wondering is how well they would work for stripping chap leather. I don't know if they could feed it alright or would bunch up. Even with sharp blades I have trouble with little waves and wiggles. Regarding the skivers, have to admit I wouldn't have thought about one 6 months ago. Seems like I will be doing more chaps in the next few years, and a motorized skiver might be the ticket for inlays and build-ups. I also have been starting to make some of the personal goods like checkbooks and planners from heavier leathers like 8 oz. Allows more latitude for deeper beveling and pro-petaling, but then I skive the edges thinner to make a cleaner looking edge. Thinking a machine with a guide would either make it more even. I know some guys use them to thin strips for horn wraps too. I just sold my Adler to a bootmaker/chapmaker who sold his equipment with a previous business. His first order of business was a skiver, and then sewing machines. I am thinking that skiving the edges where I am sewing an inverted seam would make them a little cleaner looking too? Have a good one. Bruce Johnson

Bruce, Greetings from the other Bruce. Same finger, same scar. Another important safety tip - don't try to feed a doubled set of reins into a draw gauge. If they don't want to start, make the start cut with a knife. Yep was forewarned by my then finace/now lovely bride that what I was doing looked dangerous. It was. Bruce Johnson

I guess this topic probably fits here as well as any. Seeing now that new clickers, motorized skivers, and strap cutters are becoming more available from the traditionally sewing machine sellers like Ferdco and Artisan. I am pretty set for sewing machines, but I see these other machines in some shops. Some are covered with dust and serve as a hangup or a lay down place for junk, and others are put to work. I have adapted a shop press into a clicker, but am curious if anyone has experience with the strap cutters and motorized skivers. Any pluses or limitations, not just on these two sources but any info in general on these machines would be appreciated. Looks like at least some of these are set up for 110, and not the 220 big brothers that seem to be on most of the used ones. Thanks for any replies. Bruce Johnson

Patrice, I'll kick in here. At the risk of sounding like a broken record (people who know me from other lists will attest) the best book on this subject for me is one by Bob Brenner. It is called "How to Establish Prices for the Saddle maker or Leather Worker". He usually has an ad in the classifieds of SHop Tak magazine or The Leather Crafter and Saddler's Journal. Some people get hung up on his numbers, the principles are more important - in fact my small business advisor saw mine and recommended it to other crafters not in leatherwork just for the principles. I can't tell you how much money I lost (didn't earn) before I got this book and used it. Basically for a project to estimate costs. Materials first - I take the square footage of the actual pieces and add 20% as my waste factor usually. Large odd-shaped pieces higher waste, smaller pieces - still keep the 20%. I multiply this by the cost plus shipping for the leather. I add in any hardware. I total this and add 15% to account for the miscellaneous like thread, oil, finish, tacks, dye, things consumed in the piece. (I got this 15% figure as a recommendation, and looking back on a few years records - it is pretty darn accurate). Then I multiply the total by my markup rate. Everybody is comfortable with different rates - really depends on how fast you are turning over materials inventory and how much you have tied up in it. This gives me my materials cost - non-negotiable in any deal. For labor, I figure overhead and a labor rate. Probably takes a couple years records to average out the overhead. Total them up and that is the hourly "shop rate". I have timed myself on different steps and know pretty closely how long each step takes. For instance - Cutting - I charge a flat rate of 15 minutes. It takes me that long to get the side out, cut a piece, roll the side and put it away. Sewing - I handsew at 5 minutes to prep a thread and then 1"/minute. Machine sew at 5 minutes (machine prep/maintenace) plus 1 foot/minute. I do a medium basket stamp at 1-1/2 sq ft/hr. A flower and two leaves or two oak leaves take me 15 minutes, and so on. I use a kitchen timer to measure how long each step takes me based on size or length on several things, and take a high average. Every so often I time myself again to see if I am still close. This sounds tedious, but I made up work sheets, and now have them as customized templates in my spreadsheet program. I enter in the type leather and size - it spits out how much I am using with the waste factored, enter the latest cost, the hardware, and it totals up my materials cost. For labor I enter the square footage of the project for things based on that like stamping, oiling, applying finish. I enter the linear measurements for things that are linked to that like sewing and edging. Then enter the time to install hardware. Any special tooling like flowers are added up and multplied by the time and added in. If this is a new pattern not to be reused, or lettering for a name - add it in. Then total the minutes for the estimate and multiply by the shop rate. The first few times you do this - shock and awe looking at the calculator. These are the basics of what is in the book, but he goes into a bunch more detail and covers some more points that are pretty important. I do mostly custom orders. Someone can call me and tell they want a checkbook cover with a their brand as an inlay, and two oakleaves, and I can kick out an estimate that will pretty right on. Same with a belt, photoalbum, or most anything. Even things I have never done - I figure up the measurements, what they want on it, and it spits me out a price for materials and labor. Makes life easier for me and the accuracy is scary at times. Beats guessing off the top of my head. I always guessed way low. Doing this also keeps me from trying to or having to compete with the lower priced items. Some of these things are priced lower than my materials. I can go into my shop and know how much money I am going to make. Before When I would price based on market comparisons - I made $7/hr on a headstall, and $35/ hr on a leather covered toilet lid. Bad thing was, I always had a lot more headstall on order than toilet lids. Now labor is all equal. I used to do some wholesale work for a couple of mobile tack businesses that went to rodeos, horseshows, and set up booths at trade shows. I priced their work with a lower labor rate, since it was usually batched items, and efficient time use kind of made up for the lower rate. It kind of filled in some light periods then. I have kind of priced myself out of that now, but have one good customer left who takes custom orders and I have lower labor rate figured for them. Still works out for me, and gives him incentive to take the order. He does all the dealing with the customer, and I don't have to worry about him paying me - he's good. Also gets my work out where it gets some notice by markets I don't always see. Probably more than you might have wanted to know, but that's how I do it., Bruce Johnson

Chitin, Although I use LeatherSheen (Feibings) and not SuperSheen, I would have to suspect they are either, 1. similar or 2. the same. They are a water based acrylic (have been told) so I let the oil pretty well soak in and even out - usually 24 hours. I do that anyway to make sure the oil is bringing the leather to the color and feel I want. Then apply the Sheen. That said, I have oiled a checkbook, sewn it up, and immediately finished it with no problems. I have had others show me pieces that "fogged" doing the same. I have not used the spray sheens so can't comment on that. I use a heck of a lot of the acrylic finishes on personal goods like wallets, checkbooks, planners and briefcases. Seem to be the most durable and water resisitant for me. Bruce Johnson

WOW, Did some other stuff for a few days, and just came back. ABN, let me give a little background. I started doing my own repairs about 20 plus years ago. Went like that a few years, and then got bucked off, and broke my pelvis. Not sure if I would ride again, I started taking some classes and making some western things and horse tack to keep that connection to the people and lifestyle I hold dear. Did heal up, and selling handstitched basket stamped headstalls, belts, etc. became a little sideline - sold them off my saddlehorn at cuttings and ropings. Started doing more, selling some wholesale and custom orders for bigger things. Paid its way, and let me have some fun money. Got an early Boss stiticher to speed things along. Five years ago my wife unexpectedly died from cancer. I woke up to a 16 year old son, was living in an in-law's house, and a pile of medical debt. When insurance companies and hospitals disagree, the hospital looks to you if you have any kind of stability and a job. Hint - Don't sign a "DO Not Resuscitate" form, and then go into neurologic ICU over a holiday weekend. My other job is salaried, the only opportunity I had was to give up or get tough. I got serious with the leather business, and had to treat it more like a business. There are only so many hours in the day, and I had to make it pay. It worked, and that is behind me. I find I really enjoy the leather work still, and have further expanded as time goes on. Since I have kind of run the gamut, I have no issues with the guy's prices who does leatherwork for fun, for coffee money, or to pay the bills. One guy can't make everything anyway. But there are some things the guy in serious business has to do, and pricing to prosper is one. Now to answer your question, would I still do leatherwork if I had no customers (and didn't need the money from it)? Yes, on the same level I fish or rope. They are enjoyable hobbies, ropes and fishing poles can sit, I don't have to do it. The leatherwork is for making money and enjoying it at the same time. I have expanded in talent, tools, and equipment. I have the same number and quality of tools and machinery that most any saddlemaker and serious leatherworker has. They have been paid for from the business itself, and profits and perks taken out too. I have plans to further expand what I do, and improve what I am doing now. I still make up stuff to give away as gifts or donate to a cause, or make something affordable for someone who needs a break. Real life though - I still live in one of the most unaffordable housing areas of the US, and am starting over at zero - 20 years later. Leather is cool. Bruce Johnson

Johanna, Great topic, near and dear to my heart. Number one, we have such a range of talent and expectations of return, we will never get a consensus. I think I saw in one of those G Hurst videos made during the first Tandy era, where he said leathercraft is one of the few hobbies that will pay for itself. That's true folks. Problem is that some people are happy to get the cost of the kit or materials back. Others charge the materials, and figure their time at less than $5/hour, ("Hey it is more than I would have made watching TV tonight"). Others double the materials and charge $50 or more per hour. And in each of these groups there are some real talented work, and some dead cows that need an apology. (Had some of my work described like that once). I am totally convinced that in the leather business especially, price does not equal quality. Everybody is comparing to a different yardstick - Walmart, Cabela's, Leddy's, Capriola's, the Cowboys and Indians magazine advertisers, or Ebay. There some $20 belts that need to be $150, and some $150 belts that should be $20, and some $500 belts that are priced right. Bottom line, they ALL get sold if they find the right customer. That is the key - selling, not pricing. Find the customers that will pay your price - consistantly. Now someone tell me how to do that, and we all get rich!! Because some makers don't plan to upgrade tools or buy equipment, they can maintain a lower price, make enough to pay for what they have and they are done. Some of us have plans to expand, and want the money there to pay for it when the opportunity presents itself. Expectations and needs are the biggest factor for pricing. Some people want coffee money and others pay a mortgage. I price my work like my living depended on it, but have a day job. I need them both, enough said. I markup materials, have figured my overhead, have an hourly rate based on overhead and what I think is a fair labor rate. That is what I charge. If I have to cut the labor to compete, then that is a project I don't do anymore. A business advisor told me that I need to do leather work because it is fun, not do it for fun. Somethings I do charge more than my going rate, because the market will bear it. I will give quantity discounts on some things that are all the same, and I can batch them. Still making the same amount per hour due to efficiency. One of my competitors summed it up - we need to make as much as the UPS driver who delivers our leather. Bottom line for me - don't compete with anyone below you in quality, service, or price. Find your market, and keep those folks happy. Easier to keep a customer, than find a new one. Dang, I think I have used about every cliche my business advisor had. OK, one more. There is a rock for every frog. Some frogs like a Mercedes rock, and others sit on a Yugo. Bruce Johnson

Regis, I'll jump into this pond. Sorry no clear cut answers here. 1. I am not really sure how heavy duty some home machines will go, but the little we have tried on one convinced me that they are for home use on fabrics, and very marginal on leather. Anything thick enough to do some tooling on will probably be too much for a home machine. 2. I have a gauge that I measure thickness with. I tried the caliper deal with just getting it firm, and it is close. Most leather sellers will be able to recommend appropriate weights for a specific project, or just ask the specifics here! 3. If you are buying dyed leather it is most likely chrome tanned like chap or upholstery leather, or latigo. You can dye chap darker, but sometimes end up with funny feel to the leather, funny colors, and it sure can't be tooled on very well. Ditto for latigo. You may find some drum dyed skirting leathers - very heavy weight 12-16 oz. Sounds like way too much for what you are describing your needs. Veg tan leathers tend to be most repeatable for dyeing. 4. As far as type of piece, again your seller can help you decide based on intended use. There are different stretching, tooling, and strength characteristics of different parts of the hide, and while bellies may work for a sheath, not appropriate for a belt. That sort of thing. 5. Lightest weight that can be stamped or tooled and show good detail. I have seen some very good tooling on 2 oz, and some really flat looking work on skirting. And it came from under my own hand. Factors are - tannery of origin, quality of leather, casing time and type, ability of the tooler, part of the hide the piece came from a lot of variables. Generally for deeper tooling I want 5 oz or up, but have done some OK checkbooks on 3 oz. These are sure not rules, but recommendations based on my experience. Have a good one - :pepsi: Bruce Johnson

Agree with most of what has been posted here. I come from a background that includes two great-grandfathers as cattle feeders, one dairyman, ranchers, farmers, two uncles and a dad who were livestock buyers for packing houses, and my brother and I both worked our way through school in the packing houses. My brother has a PhD in meat science, and works for the big guy. These PETA people are not out to argue rationally, they are fund raising organizations to advance their agenda. For instance, hide prices are published monthly in ShopTalk. Let's say the average hide (not side) sells for $55 averaged out over the year. That steer it came off weighed 1200# and brought 82 cents a pound averaged. Value of the hide = about five percent. PETA, HSUS, and most other environmental and animal groups don't have to justify their numbers to anyone. If any other business reported or advertised intentionally distorted numbers like these groups do, they would harassed by every government agency available. There is not "truth-in-advertising" here. The scary thing to me is not that these people vote, it is that they have money, and most have reproduced. Bruce Johnson

Regis, Welcome to the forum. I too have problems with glue sometimes. I put my Barge in a plastic squeeze bottle, and can control the size of the bead I lay down with a combination of pressure and how fast I move it along. This waht I do for 99% of my applications. If I am doing a big area, I squeeze sme lines on and spread it with a sheepskin patch. If I am test fitting something like a gusset or zipper, I hold everything in place with a bevy of binder clips (from the office supply places). I have about 100 medium and 50 larges. I also use them on the turned edge things where I either don't use glue (like a hair-on hide thing) or use a very tiny bead on a skinny edge and it tends not to hold everything tight while I am sewing. I leave the clips on and remove them as I come to them while sewing. A real marriage saver if you have a spouse holding things while you sew. On the exposed edges that I get glue on, I run them over my benchtop belt sander to remove the glue and true up the edges. Bruce Johnson

Actually we have been doing pyrography on the living beast for a couple thousand years at least. I have been doing some pyrography on hair-on inlays for quite awhile too. A few tips I found - It is hard to use a real branding iron and do a good job. Easy to burn through the hide, hair catches fire and blotches, and you are limited by the size of the brand. What I do is to use the woodburning pen with the point that looks like a modeling spoon. I just burn throught the hair, and then glide it forward, scorching the hair off as I go. It is not a real fast glide, as my woodburner just doesn't build up that kind of heat. Gives me a lot of control though. I make the pattern from a stencil, and then just mark out the lines with with a Sharpie of a color that will show up directly on the hair. This hair is going to be burned off anyway. Once the design is burned down to the hide, I dye it with a black Sharpie. I then brush on LeatherSheen over the black. This seals it a bit. I have attached a photo of a prototype wine list cover for an upscale restaurant I shipped today. The "R" is their logo. I have a few questions for anyone who has done it on vegtan leather. I have seen some pretty magnificent pyrography sketches on leather, similar to pencil sketches. It was done with a woodburning pen with the different points. It was different western sketches on open panels with tooling around them to frame the sketch - photoalbums, Bible covers, that sort of thing. This work was done on what appeared to be oiled leather and had a finish on it. Unable to get many details because this was a consignment to a guy with a tradeshow booth, and he didn't know. I see on the leather and wood pyrography sites they recommend no oil in the leather and no finish applied. Anybody had any problems with it oiled or finished? Any cool tricks? Thanks, Bruce Johnson

Johanna, I do have the "Hints and Tips" book. It is not what I would call a coffee table book. It has a Chan Geer carving on the cover, and is bound with a plastic comb. Kind of like reading this forum or joining the different lists, you may go for a bit and not see much that could apply to your work. Then, BAMM! There is that little pearl that makes it worth while. I got my $ worth out of that book, but it lives on a shelf in the other room. I think there are enough time and money saving hints to pay for itself, especially if just starting out. Cover says "Contains Over 500 Valuable Tips and Hints!". I didn't find that all 500 were, but enough were . Bruce Johnson

Johanna, I mostly agree with you. A few things my experience differs. Although I don't make many things for human wear, can share a few things from the animal restraint side. Latigo will bleed, and some will bleed like the proverbial stuck pig - on and on. I have only used the red (burgundy) latigo, but the straps on a light colored horse will bleed off. Also just saddle soaping strings will bleed off the color. There is a strap used to tighten horn wraps on saddles - goes by few ethnic names as well as "choke strap". If you don't soap and rinse, soap and rinse, etc. a new one repeatedly, the strap will bleed burgundy all over your veg-tan horn cover. I have found this with latigo from the folks who taught leather craft to the world, the latigo from New Albany, St Louis, and Buellton. Haven't tried the Mt Hope folks' latigo, but suspect it will too. Some of the old-timers like Indian-tan latigo. It has a yellow center and tan to dark brown color outside. They say it doesn't bleed as much. Also, most latigo today is not struck through. The color is about 2 oz deep. Splitting a 7/9 string down to 6 oz will get you into the gray or might still be pinkish. If you can use the thinner weights it is probably struck through. I have to redye the backs of most of my saddle strings. I have gotten LeatherSheen (Feibing's version of SuperSheen) to stick and stay on most leathers - even Diamond Tan which is one of Siegel's slightly waxy chap leathers. I can do it and my friend can't. (?) Light coats with a sponge seem to be the key for me. I use that leather a lot on rope bag gussets, but have had to use 4/5 oz latigo at times, and the LS binds and stays there too. Good point about the skin contact thing. A lot of concern out there about hypersensitivity. Siegels has a piece in their reference section on their website about chromium hypersensitivity. I see leather animal restraints on a daily basis, and cannot reliably pin very many skin problems on the leather. How many millions wear a leather watchband every day? Faster way to slick backs is to use a slicker of some kind. I was taught to use cotton balls by one instructor - there is a time investment. I make my slickers out of a piece of LDPE cutting board quarter rounded off with a router. round off the corners too. A friend with a benchtop belt sander can do the same thing. Cleans the belt and makes a handy tool. Just dampen the leather and use the slicker like a squeegee. Forward strokes at about a 45 degree angle, a few passes and it is like glass. On latigo, sometimes a little paste like saddle soap or even wax will help to lay the fibers down. Most latigo is slightly more elastic than "strap" sides. As it was explained to me, some tanneries vegtans have been rolled and compressed to make what they call strap sides. These are designed to have less stretch and be firmer. Tooling sides are not compressed, so they will be looser, easier to tool, and will mold easier and have more stretch than their strap leather counterparts. Some just have names, and it all comes form the same pile I suspect. I would suspect that latigo and tooling leather are pretty similar in stretch. My thoughts, If she looks like she can get away, just punch another hole. Bruce Johnson

Just to echo what Clay said. This is a great chance for classes. The class lineup is huge, and varied. It is very similar to the offerings at Sheridan every year. The LCSJ is really trying to reach out with this show, and trying some new things. The big class lineup at a regional show is one. It gives you the opportunity to take a longer class here, and be able to take one two months later at Sheridan if you wish. You don't have to decide one over the other for a whole year. There are several small classes scattered throughout the week too. Most of the regional shows have had a more limited lineup of classes. The tradeshow starts on Thursday and runs until Saturday. Gives a full day Sunday to get home. The social is the first night, not the last as is done at Sheridan. There seems to be a lot of interest regionally for this show. I have talked to guys who can't or don't want to go as far as Sheridan who are planning on going to Wickenburg to see what these shows are all about. I know there are a lot of you in the east who would welcome a show back there. These regional shows just have not had the support that the Sheridan show has. The ones out here have been in varied locations, small class lineup, poor timing, and have suffered poor vendor and customer attendance. This is probably the chance to see if a non-Sheridan show can be viable. Wickenburg is pretty cool location. It has a very good museum (original Russells and Remingtons), nice bit and spur collection, old saddles, and period leather work. The town is an easy drive to Phoenix and Scottsdale. It is kind of an old dude ranch town, and is now selling executive properties - very similar to Sheridan. I signed up for classes yesterday, and am looking forward to it. Bruce Johnson

Barb, Those appear to be "metal" marks. Small amounts of metal (iron is the big culprit) will react with vegtan leather when wet and cause those marks. The metal can come from grinding flakes that are so small you can't see them if there is a bench grinder in the vicinity. Storing the leather or dragging it on a metal surface, flakes of metal coming off stamps as you hit them, or other sources of fine metalic flakes can cause the small freckles. Bits of iron from plumbing can freckle leather. I have that issue from a hose at home, but not the tap. Larger smudges usually come from handling something metal, like a bench anvil or head of a hammer, and then going back to the wet leather. That minute amount can transfer to your fingers, then to your leather and cause exactly what you see. Acids tend to neutralize these spots, but can make your leather harder to tool once you do that. Acids commonly used are either oxalic acid (available as wood bleach in hardware and home improvement stores) or citric acid from plain old lemon juice- fresh or concentrate. I use lemon juice, and just dilute it a bit and sponge it on. Use the lemon juice, or you will have so many warnings and different and conflicting pieces of advice it will take you until Christmas to figure out how to use oxalic acid. Bruce Johnson

Johanna, As I am understanding this new set of regulations, there is a slew of retail consumer products that are affected. It is designed to reduce VOC emissions. Personally, I have a business license, so the leatherwork will only be mildly affected. The biggest effect for me will be whether distributers warehouse the stuff in CA or out of state. If it is out of state, then HL fees will apply to shipping it in. AS you said the hobby guy will be mostly affected in the leather side of it. However, the other retail consumer things regulated are going to be the biggie. Things like floor wax, car wax, paints, PVC glue, thinners, wood stains and treatments, have heard nail polish removers, cleaners, etc. are all going to be affected. I think when Grandma can't get her Future floor wax, Joe Carbuff can't get carnauba wax polish, and Do-It-Yourself can't get PVC glue to fix his sprinkler, the backlash will cause some moderating of this set of regulations. This has kind of come in under the radar so far. When it happens, then something hopefully will get done to ease it, if it causes the big problems I see coming. Happened with our DMV fees once. My wish anyway. The biggest problem with a lot of this legislation is that it is fairly well backed by out-of-state or national groups that know once they have CA, the rest of the country is dominoes. It was that way with the horse slaughter issue. The major funding to legislate the ban came from out of state, saving California horses as their premise. It passed by votes of millions of people who have never owned a horse and wouldn't be affected in the least. Once that was done, it is now a US Congress bill to ban all US horse slaughter that has all the earmarks of passing. Yes our rights are being taken away, but it is generally by votes of fellow citizens and neighbors who aren't affected by the proposed legislation. With a lot of ballot propostions, people don't understand what they are really voting on. Whoever has the most appealing ads is the winner, and neither side wants to share the whole story. OK, off my soapbox now. Bruce Johnson

Johanna, et al, Sorry it got a little (Ok a lot) long-winded. I had quite a few offlist emails from people asking me this or that, and my thoughts. I tried to answer them all in one place. Six of the emails were essentially the same. I would really encourage anyone with a question to post to the forum, rather than off list. The question you have is probably not unique. Others can benefit from your questions, and we can help keep this forum more of a "community". Sorry, more philosophy. Bruce (Take those emails as the compliment they were meant as- your opinion is valued in the leather community, and thanks for the suggestion to keep it on the board, where all can benefit from the conversations! Johanna)

I have had enough offlist emails (10) regarding the stamping tools, it is probably easier to just start a new topic on upgrading all tools. I may use some personal examples I have found to work for me. I am not excluding or ignoring any makers. If I do, it is because I have not used their tools and have no experience with them. The problem with any blanket recommendations for leather tools is that nearly everyone who is on this forum has different needs and expectations. There are some full time professional makers here, some who use their leather business as a second income (leaning towards more full time as time and business increases like me), serious hobbyists making things for gifts and personal use, and beginning crafters trying to see if leatherwork is for them. Personal philosophy only for the time being. Leather tools can be a basic set costing under $40 or a complete set of high end tools and machines costing $40,000. I trout fish with my Johnson Century closed face reel, bait casting pole, and salmon eggs for under $50 and you may use a tuned flyrod and highdollar reel with a wallet full of flies for $1000. We still will both catch fish. Same with woodworking, my needs as a guy making a feed bunk for cattle are not what a professional carpenter would use. Same with leatherworking tools. I sell my leatherwork. Most all of it for now is repairs or custom ordered and "sold" before it is made. I have priced it for income and profit. It wasn't always this way, but is now. That profit is reinvested in the business, as tools to improve quality and/or productivity. The income is used as income. I started out with Tandy classes and Tandy tools. They were the most affordable, available, and fit the niche. There was a local Tandy store and classes. I still use a lot of them. After Tandy closed, a lot of toolsets started showing up in the classifieds and at yard sales. The casual crafter didn't want to mail order leather and supplies and lost interest. I bought a lot of these sets, and kept the best tools. I got some tools made by the custom or higher end makers in these sets. I got some Osborne edgers, a horn trimmer, string bleeder, other tools along the way. I will use the edgers as an example. I had used the Craftool edgers ($8) before. The Osbornes in similar design ($25-30 new) held a better edge, and came a little sharper. The cutting edge is down in a slot. They both can be sharpened (I have the book), but by design, are harder to sharpen down in the slot and only have a little bit of bevel, that is fairly steep. I got some Ron's Tools edgers in a set. They would have cost about $85 new. They really cut well and the exposed blade made them easy to sharpen. A friend came along and offered me $120 or so each (WHY?!!). They weren't worth that to me and that paid for all the other tools in that set, went back to the Osbornes. I got one round bottom edger from Horseshoe Brand later. Same design as the Ron's Tools edgers, easy to keep sharp, long bevel and cutting edge for tool longeivity, and cost $45 new. So, for less than twice the cost of the Osborne, I have an edger that should last me at least 3 times as long, less effort and time to keep sharp, I am money ahead with the Horseshoe Brand in time and longeivity savings. I could justify buying the whole set then, because I use edgers a lot. A guy making one belt a week couldn't. I cut with a Clyde round knife - a lot. Not a particularly expensive knife when it was made, but works for me and easy to sharpen. I can't justify a $100-200 round knife until I wear these out. They do the job. As far as stamping tools, I pretty well covered my thoughts on the other topic, but a few points here to answer some questions that have come up. Hidecrafters and TLF stamps can be OK, really. They fit the bill for a lot of people. They can cost $5-10. HideCrafter procrafter stamps can cost $10-15. Little better. Hidecrafters stainless steel tools cost from $20-50. I don't know who makes them, but I have some and they are good. I can buy stamps from Barry King for $20-50 also. The impressions from these stamps I know. I use them a lot and don't have all of them by any means. When I am charging $15 per floral element with one flower, these tools pay for themselves. Yeah I could buy stamps from other makers for the same or more, but I just started with him and been happy with the value received. Paying 2-3 times more for a Barry King stamp than an entry level stamp works for what I expect from those particular tools. I have a large block stamp from Wayne Jueschke that cost me about $100 and is pretty different from the mainstream block stamps. Used on a $2500plus saddle it will pay for itself. A niche tool, not a necessity for most people. I know people who say that is too much money. No debate there. But some people have 50 Craftools in a drawer that they rarely use, costing $5 each, that is $250 sitting idle too. I usually buy new stamping tools to change up and freshen my work a little. When I used the same basket stamp or flower and the same border on everything, it got stale after a while. I look for stamps and effects that don't always look like Circle Y, Dale Martin, or other makers. On repairs I sometimes have to match though, and that is why my needs for more stamps may be different. Final thoughts - poersonal philosophy. There are some great tool makers making great tools today. Ebay and old tool sets are fine, but if it is something made today, for the time spent searching, just ordering a tool from TLF, HideCrafters, Bob Beard, Barry King, Wayne Jueschke, Gomph-Hackbarth, Horsheshoe Brand, and other makers may be more productive. And unlike used tires, you are using the top of the tread. Bruce Johnson

Alex, We're opening a can of worms here. Rating stamp makers is kind of like discussing religion or politics with your in-laws, everyone has an opinion, (and the first respondant is never right). I have stamps from several makers and quite a few craftools, and hope off the top of my head, I don't forget one. I am not really ignoring other makers, I just have dealt with these guys and been happy. Basket stamps -I prefer ones with slightly thicker legs, less cutting and more burnishing. Also prefer deep centers for more definition. I prefer Barry King's stamps in medium and larger sizes vs. some of the other makers. Some prefer the thinner leg stamps. Flower centers - I have a Hide crafters pro-series that I like in an oval shape. I prefer my Gomph-Hackbarth centers by Ellis Barnes for round centers. Acorn set stamps - Horsehoe Brand (Jeremiah Watt) Geometric/Block stamps - Wayne Jueschke Steep bevelers - Barry King or HideCrafter ProSeries. Make sure the checkering pattern is consistant between sizes. Long Pear Shaders - Barry King Backgrounders - buy a set or one at a time from the same maker. You then will have the pattern matching for all the shapes and sizes. I have a set from Barry King. Veiners - My veiners are all Craftools. I have gone through enough yard sale sets, I have kept the ones with good impressions in the sizes I use. Mule feet are generally Craftool, except for a wider one from Barry King. Stops are all Craftool or a veiner end. Cam tools - Don't use them a lot. I have the scalloped ones from Barry King that I use the most. The craftools are OK too. Border tools - Sky's the limit here depending on my whims. Hidecrafters, Ellis Barnes, Jeremiah Watt, Craftool, etc. I usually have bought a Craftool first and tried it. If I liked the finished border, and will do it a lot, then that stamp may be replaced if a better impression replacement comes up. These are the tools I use them most. No particular reason I use them, other than that is what I have and what I like. I try to buy similar tools from the same makers so there is consistancy. My thoughts are to see what you use the most. Then replace them with the better tools if the better tools have better impressions. Not all of them do. I have a $5 Hamley swirl (crazylegs) from HideCrafter's bottom end line that has a deeper and cleaner impression than the high dollar ones I tried. Not always the case, but sometimes is. Generally the larger the stamp, the more detailing and sharper the impression it can have. I would challenge most people to look from 10 feet at a bridle stamped by my Craftool #500 and a small basket by any other maker and pick out the difference. Not worth it for me to replace my #500. I have kind of replaced my stamps from larger to smaller. I like to see and try them at shows, as each stamp can be a little different than others in the same slot. If I can't and have a preference (as in the case of my baskets), I tell the maker what I want - the thicker legs and deeper centers in that case. My 2 cents. Bruce Johnson

The $1300 price for new, but out of warranty is probably a bit high. New ones sell for $1450 from a lot of dealers, without the stand. Heard that TLF has discounted to $1200 or so on special sale right now. Will get to the stand in a moment. The extra bobbins are nice(they cost about 4-5 dollars from most industrial machine suppliers) and I had 8 or 10. That way I had several wound for different color and sized threads. Personally I never liked the center presser foot. I sewed better with the regular double toe foot or right or left toe foot as needed around spots or raised edges. The bench for me is too high. You are reaching up to pull the handle (fatiguing on your shoulder), and the strap or piece is in your chin, not your lap. I used a basic bench tool stand from Harbor Freight, cost about $20. Had a 1" particle board top on it that you would mount a bench grinder or table top jig saw, etc on. I sat on a low bar or counter stool. My reach was level across to the handle, and I could sew longer and faster, and was looking down on my sew line - not across it like the cobbler's bench. One thing about the boss too. The factory will rebuild them for a very reasonable price. On mine they quoted something like an exchange for $100 or rebuild with new presser bar, cable, and handle assembly for $125 or something like that. They will then warranty it just like a new machine. Mine was sewing fine, so they recommended selling it as is. If it ever needed rebuilding, then the new owner could have it rebuilt or exchanged, just like the original owner for the same price and warranty. Bruce Johnson

Tom is not quite right. I used the heck out of one, but it was no where close to worn out when I sold it. It will sew anything you can cram under the foot. It will do three layers of skirting all day. It will do a checkbook cover and then a back cinch with little or no tension change. There are few parts to wear out. It was my first machine, and I did have one of the old cast iron models. There is no timing to get out of whack and it is easy to maintain. I found once I got the tension right, the tweaking was easy and it sewed a pretty good stitch. It took about a an hour or so of fiddling to get the bobbin tension right. I never adjusted it after that - only the top tension. The parts I did break were upgraded to heavier duty parts in later models, and never charged for. As far as setup, it was no different than the three powered machines I have got since then. Learning on the Boss made it easier for me to use the motored machines later. The threading pattern is pretty similar to my bigger machines too. My son used it, both wives, I found it pretty forgiving. The down side - you power it, and it is boring and tedious for production type work. The plus side - you power it. You have control of every stitch. You can't run off the end unless you fall asleep. It does have a 9" or so throat, so not a huge reach for centered inlays on big projects. Mine was ultimately replaced by a Ferdco Pro 2000. I had a 440 before that, and still have a heavy duty Adler. When I got the Pro 2000, I put the Boss in a storage room for two months. Only to prove to myself I would not regret selling the Boss, since it paid for itself long before. There is now another machine out that is powered for under $2000 (Artisan 3000), has been out for about a year and a half. The Boss proved to be the workhorse for me and I would not hesitate to recommend it. Bruce Johnson

Recently there have been some posts by people on how NOT to use neatsfoot oil by those who admittedly do not use neatsfoot oil on products they themselves do not make. Suspect advice when you give out information on things you don't on products you yourself don't make. They have made claim that Al Stohlman himself said it migrates, then gave their own definition of migration, and talk about some bad experience thay had overusing it sometime in the past. Go so far as to give specific instructions that they would not use it on any part of the saddle that would come in contact with the rider's clothing. Safe advice, since they don't make saddles. First off Al Stohlman is A saddlemaker, not THE saddle maker. A lot can be learned from him but there are others too. We all take things from everyone, some things we learn to do, and some don't work for us and our leather. But he mentions in all three of his books on saddlemaking that he uses NF oil (and also a lot of NF oil compound) on all parts of the saddle. He includes the fenders and seat. On all four saddles he shows how to build he specifically mentions and shows oiling these parts. Bear in mind that these were the last books Al Stohlman wrote. Written when he had the most experience, and many of the more recent products were available. Probably the most read of any of the saddlemaking books published. The next two most widely read would probably be Dave Jones book and Harry Adams, Jr's Books. Both of them specifically mention using NF oil (or olive oil). The Harry Adams book mentions having a gallon on hand, I probably don't use quite that quantity on two. These are respected sources and not some anecdotal second hand reply. The instructions given by Al Stohlman specifically tell you how to apply NF oil, how not to overapply NF oil and the benefits. Al felt like NF oil pentrated all layers of the leather the best. Which according to my impression of migration would mean it "migrated" the best. He felt like Lexol was more of a surface conditioner. This information is available in Volume I. I am not disagreeing with him on Lexol, but I think that is a factor of application method. Apply enough Lexol with a sheepskin swatch and it will go all the way through. Apply NF oil or Lexol with a flannel and it won't be as obvious. The question was asked, why use NF oil? Good question. One is that it is proven to give consistant results. Another is that is gives good "color" to leather and conditions it. It does migrate, and so lubricates all layers of the leather. It has (anecdotally) been one of the longer lasting lubricants for the leather fibers. It has stood the test of time. Can NF oil be over used? of course!!! That can be done with any leather conditioner. Put Hide Rejuvenator (one of my favorites too ) on a saddle on a hot day, and it will take all you put on - and be overconditioned. Just because you didn't know better and overoiled or over conditioned your leather with whatever conditioner you choose, DO NOT blame the conditioner. You put it on, you messed it up. You can always add more if you need it later. If you put too much of anything on, live and learn. The darkening factor of oils has been brought up. If anyone knows of any product or leather that will not darken when used or exposed to sunlight, let me know. That is the nature of using leather. I would much rather see one of my projects dark and thin and worn out from use in ten years, than new looking and light in 50 years. I am not talking about a figure carving picture, I am talking about using leather - belts, purses, checkbooks, planners, saddles - that distinction has not been made with past advice. Leather is dead - it doesn't last forever. You condition it to last longer. Most astute buyers realize their belt or saddle will end up darker than when it is new. If they don't, educate them now. A lot of my customers would probably prefer it darker to start with. Some makers purposely solar age their new products to give them that patina of age. Many of you know I make several different type of tooled and carved projects. Pocket business card holders to saddles. Almost everything I do has been oiled (with a paint roller!) - for color and/or conditioning if for no other reason. I try not to overoil, and use a good finish to keep it in the leather. Have had zero bleed off complaints from the oil. How many customers will ever oil their checkbook cover again? I use NF straight or with varying levels of ProDye in it to color it for the project I am doing. I buy several gallons annually, and use them. I am interested to see how others use NF oil, and expereinces plus and minus from the users. Respectfully, Bruce Johnson

Tom, Good reply. I know we beat this topic up on another list. Not much to add other than selling at wholesale/retail. I was doing both heavily for quite a while. My prices were not exactly half. I figured my materials cost and markups first. That is NON-Negotiable!! I then figure my time. I have little formulas based on square footage or linear measurements how fast I can do each step. I also do time studies frequently to make sure my rate is still accurate. Then I figure my wholesale rate at materials plus so much per hour wholesale. I figure retail at some much per hour at the retail rate. My wholesale rate currently is $30/hour and retail is $40. This includes my overhead expenses. A project with 35 dollars materials and 4 hours would be $155 wholesale and $190 retail. I am going up to $45 retail. My goal is to make at least as much as the UPS driver who brings my stuff. My wholesale accounts have mostly moved away or found cheaper suppliers. I have one I still do, and he is not a problem customer - pays well, understands lead times, and is honest. My whole sale customers always knew what my selling price was. If they wanted to be higher, that was their business. My stuff was mostly not doubled ("keystoned") because they didn't pay for it until they got it, and often had already been paid by their customer. They had little overhead and no inventory expenses in my custom orders. Some non-custom things were sold on consignment, and others they paid half when they got it and the other half once it sold. This was mainly for things like the trade shows at the National Finals Rodeo, where everything was sold in a short period. One other factor. Don't sell directly to customers of your wholesale accounts if they contact you. Tempting as it is, just don't. The people you wholesale to are out there working to sell, paying booth space, staying in a motel or paying shop rent space and employees and shop overhead, They have to earn a living too. If you really need their markup that badly, don't wholesale in the first place. Bruce Johnson

I am still trying to see the issue with Neatsfoot oil moving around. Yes it migrates (I am glad it does), So does Lexol, so do the one step products, so does water, so does any liquid or paste that warms enough to become liquid. It migrates to lubricate all the layers of leather from top to bottom. The grain layer is denser, the flesh layer is looser (more spongier). That is why these things are used, to move around and lubricate the spaces between the fibers. If they didn't move around or migrate, that means they just stay in one spot. There is no migration, it must not soak in, because that would be migrating. Lexol sure has heck migrates, it is not the heavier feel of NF oil. Olive oil feels even lighter yet. We are just picking what liquid provides the best lubrication depending on the needs of our leather and what it will be exposed to. The needs of a saddle or boots, or anything used are different than a 50 year old picture hanging on a wall. Yep they will get dark, If that is an issue, buy a fake leather saddle, because oak tanned leather will eventually darken exposed to light - oiled or not. Just lay two sides out grain side up overlapping and watch the light change the color of the underneath piece over time. Ever get a mottled side from a distributor? It was shadowed by the piece on top of it in the stack. Lexoled leather will darken also. So will olive oil. I have not used silicon oil but it is reported to be the least darkening but will darken somewhat . There was a fad in the show horse world several years ago for very light (almost white) saddles. Silicon was the only thing recommended for them to prevent darkening, and they were used in their class and then immediately covered to prevent light-induced darkening. I was out of that loop. If you have a problem with oils coming off on your clothes or skin, it means the leather has been saturated by top to bottom and it is coming back out. Leather is like a tight celled cellulose sponge - it really wants to hold moisture. Add moisture in some form and it becomes flexible. If you use more moisture than it needs for flexibility, it seeps back out. You have used too much. You can do this with Lexol too. Leave the saddle making lessons, and lessons on the use of neatsfoot oil and where to apply it on a saddle to the people who actually use it - saddlemakers. If it was a problem, we wouldn't be doing it. Good point about dipping a feather in NF oil and it still being wet to the touch 6 months later. Personally I would be glad to see it wet at ten years. (BTW - it isn't. Eventually it just gets thicker and more greaselike, unitl it becomes a waxy paste). That is why it (and other oils) is used as a lubricant. It stays wet and reduces friction over time. I use Lexol too and found that the spills from it dry slowly too, and end up with a waxy type of greasy paste, but in less time than the NF oil. Water will make leather more flexible too (casing belt leather before making the buckle end fold for a common example), unfortunately it dries, and then the lubrication properties are gone. You can also use alcohol to lubricate leather. Lasts even less than water, used by shoe makers as shoe stretch. Also gone after water or alcohol are some of the fat liquors that was put into the leather at the tannery to give it some measure of flexibility before you bought it. Which is what Lexol, and other conditioners are purported to be - fat liquors. Which one you choose depends on your needs. Regarding your boots, I think you over-oiled them. However a little detergent will take that oil right out of your socks. I think we use Cheer. Respectfully, Bruce Johnson