bruce johnson

Pella, Me again! My favorites early on were the Osborne #127 edgers. Came pretty sharp usually, held an edge Ok, but sharpened up fairly easily - left a squared cut. I got some of Ron's edgers (www.Ronstools.com) in a deal. They were very nice - left a round cut, but a guy made me a ridiculous offer (more than new) and he owns them. Now all I use are Horseshoe Brand tool edgers from Jeremiah Watt. I have the set of round bottom edgers and both of the Vizzard pattern edgers (along with some of his French edgers). The edgers all leave a round cut. His website is www.ranch2arena.com. Jeremiah's edgers (all his cutting tools actually) are sharp when you get them, hold an edge well and sharpen up. I have used the snot out of them and never had to do anything but strop. These edgers sell for about $45 each. Half the cost of Ron's, and I think very comparable. Word of caution, the larger sizes of Jeremiah's edgers (#3 and #4) are pretty big, good for skirts and horns. Bruce Johnson

Pella, I thought it was just me. Weaver's nylon was what I threw away. I couldn't get it to sew very well on anything. The bonding was not very good and the thread untwisted and caught up on the hook a lot, the needle speared the bobbin thread, and strands fell off the bottom of the spool and wound around the thread stand. To top it off I ordered a spool of 346 for the top and 277 for the bottom. They were two different shades of brown. One was chestnut, the other a tannish color. I talked to Vernon Weaver about something else and mentioned it. He laughed and said that at least they both were brown, not all customers get that lucky! Gotta like his sense of humor. Vernon is a pretty good source of info on machines too. Bruce Johnson

Clay, Happy Birthday from Rundi and me. :pepsi: or :beer: Keep warm, dry, and enjoy! Forty six, huh? That's a popular age (me too for another few months). Bruce Johnson

Pella, In a nutshell, nylon has more stretch than poly thread. Some nylons have more stretch than others too. I started with nylon in my Boss. When I got the first powered machine, it came with poly and poly was recommended by the seller for their machines. I started using it in the Boss too. I ran out of the poly, and went back to some nylon left overs, more skips and twisting than the poly in the powered machines. Was cheaper to just throw away the nylon after that than be tempted to use it up. I am sure not all polys are the same, but what I use is Coats. Bruce Johnson

Ed, The Pro 2000 wheels pretty easily. The only thing I have to compare to was my Adler, and it was about the same. There is no big deal going from hand wheeling to motor and back. I have a Ferdco 1245 too, and it wheels maybe a little easier. It may just be that on the bigger machines, we are moving more mechanics. I only had the 440 for about a week so I can't even remember how it was. It was just too rough on the backside of my projects. I traded the 440 head for the Adler. Bruce Johnson

Ed, I have had my Pro 2000 for about a year now, so we may have the same set up. Mine has the servo motor - no noise when turned on until you step on the pedal. I also started off with a 440 (Baby Bull) several years ago, and used that same table and motor for my Adler. It was the clutch motor set up until I swapped that motor out for the servo. The servos I have behave just like the clutch motors as far as releasing the machine with a slight pedal pressure, they just give me much more control when engaged. Unless we have radically different motors on our big stitchers, mine releases just like the old clutch motors did. Bruce Johnson

Ed, The thing about them not backstitching or only going back one stitch is the reason I hate family gatherings. Not really, but it always seems that someone has this little Coach whatever that the stitching has come loose, can I fix it? Usally they use such small thread I can't match it and kind of blow it off. I usually backstitch 3-5 stitches or oversew the same. I have tried a few of the thread burners and just cutting. Probably as good a place as any to share the results. 1. Just cutting short with thread snips. usually a tag end, may or may not pull through. What I mostly do on thicker leather. 2. The thread burners that ShopTalk sells. These are battery operated cautery (for surgery) devices. I have used these for field and eye surgery because of the pinpoint tip and the portability. As thread burners - they cut the thread cleanly, and the thin tip can burn the thread off in the needle hole. The tips are very flexible and bend easily. They cut thread clean, and do not leave a knob on the end. Heat up quickly. 3. Wood burning or soldering pen. - These burn threads and generally melt a small knob onto the tip. This resists pull-through. I have found the rounded tips melt the thread down into the needle hole and leave a fairly smooth feel. You can almost weld the tag to the other threads and lock everything. My favorite for a smooth look. Longer to heat up. 4. burn with a match or candle - scorches leather and leaves a globby knob. rougher feel.

Ed, The speed reducer should have nothig to do with it. I handwheel by just barely pressing on the pedal to free the motor. Otherwise you are fighting a clutch with a clutch motor or whatever holds the motor with the servo motors. Even with my motor on, by pressing a little I can free the shaft without engaging the motor. The servo motor definitely gives me more slow control, and I have to fight the urge to reach up and handwheel the machine when I would have had to when using the clutch motors. Bruce Johnson

Jack, I have to agree with you on a few levels. I liked your last line about handsewing is great only if you don't own a sewing machine. From experience, there is nothing romantic about handsewing 20 checkbooks on a Sunday. I could hardly lift my arms to dial the phone Monday morning to order the Boss. "Did I want 2nd day air? YES!!!" I had zero experience with sewing on a machine before, but knew it was time to nod my head or go home. When I went from one inch per minute to one foot per minute, I knew I was right. The Boss and the mechanics taught me how they are supposed to work properly, and being able to cycle it by hand and watch the stitch cycle taught me how to troubleshoot when something wasn't quite right. That was several years ago, but the lessons remain. Biggest lesson, when something changes - always change out needles first. Figuring out what a machine can and can't do directly aided when I moved up to powered machines. I don't think I would have had as good a handle on the powered machines, and which one(s) to buy, had I not bought the Boss first. I knew what capacity machine I needed, not what price machine I wanted to pay. Bruce Johnson

Clay, I talked to Ron at Ferdco about the Elko show today again. They have the saddle class dates as April 18-20. They have also added a Sherdian style carving class on April 19-20. It is limited to 10 students, and the cost is $200. It is being taught by Andy Stevens. Check out his work at www.andystevenssaddlery.com . Shades of Chester!! His work will knock your socks off. I want to take them both now. Ron said both classes will probably be repeated at the fall show in Pendleton OR. Another town steeped in leather tradition. More info on the Ferdco website - www.ferdco.com. Bruce Johnson

Thanks Art, Looks like I need to find someone close by, and play with a skiver a little. I think it is one of those things that can do some jobs, and I can probably justify if things go the way it appears. Just need to check some more, and see if these new ones are enough machine, or one of the older Fortunas might be the ticket. Bruce Johnson

Jack, Very cool! Nice clean work, and very stylish. These really make the statement the bearer "has arrived". Bruce Johnson

Art, Thanks for the reply. I agree the strap cutter is probably overkill for most shops unless a guy lives to make reins, latigos, or belts. What I am wondering is how well they would work for stripping chap leather. I don't know if they could feed it alright or would bunch up. Even with sharp blades I have trouble with little waves and wiggles. Regarding the skivers, have to admit I wouldn't have thought about one 6 months ago. Seems like I will be doing more chaps in the next few years, and a motorized skiver might be the ticket for inlays and build-ups. I also have been starting to make some of the personal goods like checkbooks and planners from heavier leathers like 8 oz. Allows more latitude for deeper beveling and pro-petaling, but then I skive the edges thinner to make a cleaner looking edge. Thinking a machine with a guide would either make it more even. I know some guys use them to thin strips for horn wraps too. I just sold my Adler to a bootmaker/chapmaker who sold his equipment with a previous business. His first order of business was a skiver, and then sewing machines. I am thinking that skiving the edges where I am sewing an inverted seam would make them a little cleaner looking too? Have a good one. Bruce Johnson

Bruce, Greetings from the other Bruce. Same finger, same scar. Another important safety tip - don't try to feed a doubled set of reins into a draw gauge. If they don't want to start, make the start cut with a knife. Yep was forewarned by my then finace/now lovely bride that what I was doing looked dangerous. It was. Bruce Johnson

I guess this topic probably fits here as well as any. Seeing now that new clickers, motorized skivers, and strap cutters are becoming more available from the traditionally sewing machine sellers like Ferdco and Artisan. I am pretty set for sewing machines, but I see these other machines in some shops. Some are covered with dust and serve as a hangup or a lay down place for junk, and others are put to work. I have adapted a shop press into a clicker, but am curious if anyone has experience with the strap cutters and motorized skivers. Any pluses or limitations, not just on these two sources but any info in general on these machines would be appreciated. Looks like at least some of these are set up for 110, and not the 220 big brothers that seem to be on most of the used ones. Thanks for any replies. Bruce Johnson

Patrice, I'll kick in here. At the risk of sounding like a broken record (people who know me from other lists will attest) the best book on this subject for me is one by Bob Brenner. It is called "How to Establish Prices for the Saddle maker or Leather Worker". He usually has an ad in the classifieds of SHop Tak magazine or The Leather Crafter and Saddler's Journal. Some people get hung up on his numbers, the principles are more important - in fact my small business advisor saw mine and recommended it to other crafters not in leatherwork just for the principles. I can't tell you how much money I lost (didn't earn) before I got this book and used it. Basically for a project to estimate costs. Materials first - I take the square footage of the actual pieces and add 20% as my waste factor usually. Large odd-shaped pieces higher waste, smaller pieces - still keep the 20%. I multiply this by the cost plus shipping for the leather. I add in any hardware. I total this and add 15% to account for the miscellaneous like thread, oil, finish, tacks, dye, things consumed in the piece. (I got this 15% figure as a recommendation, and looking back on a few years records - it is pretty darn accurate). Then I multiply the total by my markup rate. Everybody is comfortable with different rates - really depends on how fast you are turning over materials inventory and how much you have tied up in it. This gives me my materials cost - non-negotiable in any deal. For labor, I figure overhead and a labor rate. Probably takes a couple years records to average out the overhead. Total them up and that is the hourly "shop rate". I have timed myself on different steps and know pretty closely how long each step takes. For instance - Cutting - I charge a flat rate of 15 minutes. It takes me that long to get the side out, cut a piece, roll the side and put it away. Sewing - I handsew at 5 minutes to prep a thread and then 1"/minute. Machine sew at 5 minutes (machine prep/maintenace) plus 1 foot/minute. I do a medium basket stamp at 1-1/2 sq ft/hr. A flower and two leaves or two oak leaves take me 15 minutes, and so on. I use a kitchen timer to measure how long each step takes me based on size or length on several things, and take a high average. Every so often I time myself again to see if I am still close. This sounds tedious, but I made up work sheets, and now have them as customized templates in my spreadsheet program. I enter in the type leather and size - it spits out how much I am using with the waste factored, enter the latest cost, the hardware, and it totals up my materials cost. For labor I enter the square footage of the project for things based on that like stamping, oiling, applying finish. I enter the linear measurements for things that are linked to that like sewing and edging. Then enter the time to install hardware. Any special tooling like flowers are added up and multplied by the time and added in. If this is a new pattern not to be reused, or lettering for a name - add it in. Then total the minutes for the estimate and multiply by the shop rate. The first few times you do this - shock and awe looking at the calculator. These are the basics of what is in the book, but he goes into a bunch more detail and covers some more points that are pretty important. I do mostly custom orders. Someone can call me and tell they want a checkbook cover with a their brand as an inlay, and two oakleaves, and I can kick out an estimate that will pretty right on. Same with a belt, photoalbum, or most anything. Even things I have never done - I figure up the measurements, what they want on it, and it spits me out a price for materials and labor. Makes life easier for me and the accuracy is scary at times. Beats guessing off the top of my head. I always guessed way low. Doing this also keeps me from trying to or having to compete with the lower priced items. Some of these things are priced lower than my materials. I can go into my shop and know how much money I am going to make. Before When I would price based on market comparisons - I made $7/hr on a headstall, and $35/ hr on a leather covered toilet lid. Bad thing was, I always had a lot more headstall on order than toilet lids. Now labor is all equal. I used to do some wholesale work for a couple of mobile tack businesses that went to rodeos, horseshows, and set up booths at trade shows. I priced their work with a lower labor rate, since it was usually batched items, and efficient time use kind of made up for the lower rate. It kind of filled in some light periods then. I have kind of priced myself out of that now, but have one good customer left who takes custom orders and I have lower labor rate figured for them. Still works out for me, and gives him incentive to take the order. He does all the dealing with the customer, and I don't have to worry about him paying me - he's good. Also gets my work out where it gets some notice by markets I don't always see. Probably more than you might have wanted to know, but that's how I do it., Bruce Johnson

Chitin, Although I use LeatherSheen (Feibings) and not SuperSheen, I would have to suspect they are either, 1. similar or 2. the same. They are a water based acrylic (have been told) so I let the oil pretty well soak in and even out - usually 24 hours. I do that anyway to make sure the oil is bringing the leather to the color and feel I want. Then apply the Sheen. That said, I have oiled a checkbook, sewn it up, and immediately finished it with no problems. I have had others show me pieces that "fogged" doing the same. I have not used the spray sheens so can't comment on that. I use a heck of a lot of the acrylic finishes on personal goods like wallets, checkbooks, planners and briefcases. Seem to be the most durable and water resisitant for me. Bruce Johnson

WOW, Did some other stuff for a few days, and just came back. ABN, let me give a little background. I started doing my own repairs about 20 plus years ago. Went like that a few years, and then got bucked off, and broke my pelvis. Not sure if I would ride again, I started taking some classes and making some western things and horse tack to keep that connection to the people and lifestyle I hold dear. Did heal up, and selling handstitched basket stamped headstalls, belts, etc. became a little sideline - sold them off my saddlehorn at cuttings and ropings. Started doing more, selling some wholesale and custom orders for bigger things. Paid its way, and let me have some fun money. Got an early Boss stiticher to speed things along. Five years ago my wife unexpectedly died from cancer. I woke up to a 16 year old son, was living in an in-law's house, and a pile of medical debt. When insurance companies and hospitals disagree, the hospital looks to you if you have any kind of stability and a job. Hint - Don't sign a "DO Not Resuscitate" form, and then go into neurologic ICU over a holiday weekend. My other job is salaried, the only opportunity I had was to give up or get tough. I got serious with the leather business, and had to treat it more like a business. There are only so many hours in the day, and I had to make it pay. It worked, and that is behind me. I find I really enjoy the leather work still, and have further expanded as time goes on. Since I have kind of run the gamut, I have no issues with the guy's prices who does leatherwork for fun, for coffee money, or to pay the bills. One guy can't make everything anyway. But there are some things the guy in serious business has to do, and pricing to prosper is one. Now to answer your question, would I still do leatherwork if I had no customers (and didn't need the money from it)? Yes, on the same level I fish or rope. They are enjoyable hobbies, ropes and fishing poles can sit, I don't have to do it. The leatherwork is for making money and enjoying it at the same time. I have expanded in talent, tools, and equipment. I have the same number and quality of tools and machinery that most any saddlemaker and serious leatherworker has. They have been paid for from the business itself, and profits and perks taken out too. I have plans to further expand what I do, and improve what I am doing now. I still make up stuff to give away as gifts or donate to a cause, or make something affordable for someone who needs a break. Real life though - I still live in one of the most unaffordable housing areas of the US, and am starting over at zero - 20 years later. Leather is cool. Bruce Johnson

Johanna, Great topic, near and dear to my heart. Number one, we have such a range of talent and expectations of return, we will never get a consensus. I think I saw in one of those G Hurst videos made during the first Tandy era, where he said leathercraft is one of the few hobbies that will pay for itself. That's true folks. Problem is that some people are happy to get the cost of the kit or materials back. Others charge the materials, and figure their time at less than $5/hour, ("Hey it is more than I would have made watching TV tonight"). Others double the materials and charge $50 or more per hour. And in each of these groups there are some real talented work, and some dead cows that need an apology. (Had some of my work described like that once). I am totally convinced that in the leather business especially, price does not equal quality. Everybody is comparing to a different yardstick - Walmart, Cabela's, Leddy's, Capriola's, the Cowboys and Indians magazine advertisers, or Ebay. There some $20 belts that need to be $150, and some $150 belts that should be $20, and some $500 belts that are priced right. Bottom line, they ALL get sold if they find the right customer. That is the key - selling, not pricing. Find the customers that will pay your price - consistantly. Now someone tell me how to do that, and we all get rich!! Because some makers don't plan to upgrade tools or buy equipment, they can maintain a lower price, make enough to pay for what they have and they are done. Some of us have plans to expand, and want the money there to pay for it when the opportunity presents itself. Expectations and needs are the biggest factor for pricing. Some people want coffee money and others pay a mortgage. I price my work like my living depended on it, but have a day job. I need them both, enough said. I markup materials, have figured my overhead, have an hourly rate based on overhead and what I think is a fair labor rate. That is what I charge. If I have to cut the labor to compete, then that is a project I don't do anymore. A business advisor told me that I need to do leather work because it is fun, not do it for fun. Somethings I do charge more than my going rate, because the market will bear it. I will give quantity discounts on some things that are all the same, and I can batch them. Still making the same amount per hour due to efficiency. One of my competitors summed it up - we need to make as much as the UPS driver who delivers our leather. Bottom line for me - don't compete with anyone below you in quality, service, or price. Find your market, and keep those folks happy. Easier to keep a customer, than find a new one. Dang, I think I have used about every cliche my business advisor had. OK, one more. There is a rock for every frog. Some frogs like a Mercedes rock, and others sit on a Yugo. Bruce Johnson

Regis, I'll jump into this pond. Sorry no clear cut answers here. 1. I am not really sure how heavy duty some home machines will go, but the little we have tried on one convinced me that they are for home use on fabrics, and very marginal on leather. Anything thick enough to do some tooling on will probably be too much for a home machine. 2. I have a gauge that I measure thickness with. I tried the caliper deal with just getting it firm, and it is close. Most leather sellers will be able to recommend appropriate weights for a specific project, or just ask the specifics here! 3. If you are buying dyed leather it is most likely chrome tanned like chap or upholstery leather, or latigo. You can dye chap darker, but sometimes end up with funny feel to the leather, funny colors, and it sure can't be tooled on very well. Ditto for latigo. You may find some drum dyed skirting leathers - very heavy weight 12-16 oz. Sounds like way too much for what you are describing your needs. Veg tan leathers tend to be most repeatable for dyeing. 4. As far as type of piece, again your seller can help you decide based on intended use. There are different stretching, tooling, and strength characteristics of different parts of the hide, and while bellies may work for a sheath, not appropriate for a belt. That sort of thing. 5. Lightest weight that can be stamped or tooled and show good detail. I have seen some very good tooling on 2 oz, and some really flat looking work on skirting. And it came from under my own hand. Factors are - tannery of origin, quality of leather, casing time and type, ability of the tooler, part of the hide the piece came from a lot of variables. Generally for deeper tooling I want 5 oz or up, but have done some OK checkbooks on 3 oz. These are sure not rules, but recommendations based on my experience. Have a good one - :pepsi: Bruce Johnson

Agree with most of what has been posted here. I come from a background that includes two great-grandfathers as cattle feeders, one dairyman, ranchers, farmers, two uncles and a dad who were livestock buyers for packing houses, and my brother and I both worked our way through school in the packing houses. My brother has a PhD in meat science, and works for the big guy. These PETA people are not out to argue rationally, they are fund raising organizations to advance their agenda. For instance, hide prices are published monthly in ShopTalk. Let's say the average hide (not side) sells for $55 averaged out over the year. That steer it came off weighed 1200# and brought 82 cents a pound averaged. Value of the hide = about five percent. PETA, HSUS, and most other environmental and animal groups don't have to justify their numbers to anyone. If any other business reported or advertised intentionally distorted numbers like these groups do, they would harassed by every government agency available. There is not "truth-in-advertising" here. The scary thing to me is not that these people vote, it is that they have money, and most have reproduced. Bruce Johnson

Regis, Welcome to the forum. I too have problems with glue sometimes. I put my Barge in a plastic squeeze bottle, and can control the size of the bead I lay down with a combination of pressure and how fast I move it along. This waht I do for 99% of my applications. If I am doing a big area, I squeeze sme lines on and spread it with a sheepskin patch. If I am test fitting something like a gusset or zipper, I hold everything in place with a bevy of binder clips (from the office supply places). I have about 100 medium and 50 larges. I also use them on the turned edge things where I either don't use glue (like a hair-on hide thing) or use a very tiny bead on a skinny edge and it tends not to hold everything tight while I am sewing. I leave the clips on and remove them as I come to them while sewing. A real marriage saver if you have a spouse holding things while you sew. On the exposed edges that I get glue on, I run them over my benchtop belt sander to remove the glue and true up the edges. Bruce Johnson

Actually we have been doing pyrography on the living beast for a couple thousand years at least. I have been doing some pyrography on hair-on inlays for quite awhile too. A few tips I found - It is hard to use a real branding iron and do a good job. Easy to burn through the hide, hair catches fire and blotches, and you are limited by the size of the brand. What I do is to use the woodburning pen with the point that looks like a modeling spoon. I just burn throught the hair, and then glide it forward, scorching the hair off as I go. It is not a real fast glide, as my woodburner just doesn't build up that kind of heat. Gives me a lot of control though. I make the pattern from a stencil, and then just mark out the lines with with a Sharpie of a color that will show up directly on the hair. This hair is going to be burned off anyway. Once the design is burned down to the hide, I dye it with a black Sharpie. I then brush on LeatherSheen over the black. This seals it a bit. I have attached a photo of a prototype wine list cover for an upscale restaurant I shipped today. The "R" is their logo. I have a few questions for anyone who has done it on vegtan leather. I have seen some pretty magnificent pyrography sketches on leather, similar to pencil sketches. It was done with a woodburning pen with the different points. It was different western sketches on open panels with tooling around them to frame the sketch - photoalbums, Bible covers, that sort of thing. This work was done on what appeared to be oiled leather and had a finish on it. Unable to get many details because this was a consignment to a guy with a tradeshow booth, and he didn't know. I see on the leather and wood pyrography sites they recommend no oil in the leather and no finish applied. Anybody had any problems with it oiled or finished? Any cool tricks? Thanks, Bruce Johnson

Johanna, I do have the "Hints and Tips" book. It is not what I would call a coffee table book. It has a Chan Geer carving on the cover, and is bound with a plastic comb. Kind of like reading this forum or joining the different lists, you may go for a bit and not see much that could apply to your work. Then, BAMM! There is that little pearl that makes it worth while. I got my $ worth out of that book, but it lives on a shelf in the other room. I think there are enough time and money saving hints to pay for itself, especially if just starting out. Cover says "Contains Over 500 Valuable Tips and Hints!". I didn't find that all 500 were, but enough were . Bruce Johnson

Johanna, I mostly agree with you. A few things my experience differs. Although I don't make many things for human wear, can share a few things from the animal restraint side. Latigo will bleed, and some will bleed like the proverbial stuck pig - on and on. I have only used the red (burgundy) latigo, but the straps on a light colored horse will bleed off. Also just saddle soaping strings will bleed off the color. There is a strap used to tighten horn wraps on saddles - goes by few ethnic names as well as "choke strap". If you don't soap and rinse, soap and rinse, etc. a new one repeatedly, the strap will bleed burgundy all over your veg-tan horn cover. I have found this with latigo from the folks who taught leather craft to the world, the latigo from New Albany, St Louis, and Buellton. Haven't tried the Mt Hope folks' latigo, but suspect it will too. Some of the old-timers like Indian-tan latigo. It has a yellow center and tan to dark brown color outside. They say it doesn't bleed as much. Also, most latigo today is not struck through. The color is about 2 oz deep. Splitting a 7/9 string down to 6 oz will get you into the gray or might still be pinkish. If you can use the thinner weights it is probably struck through. I have to redye the backs of most of my saddle strings. I have gotten LeatherSheen (Feibing's version of SuperSheen) to stick and stay on most leathers - even Diamond Tan which is one of Siegel's slightly waxy chap leathers. I can do it and my friend can't. (?) Light coats with a sponge seem to be the key for me. I use that leather a lot on rope bag gussets, but have had to use 4/5 oz latigo at times, and the LS binds and stays there too. Good point about the skin contact thing. A lot of concern out there about hypersensitivity. Siegels has a piece in their reference section on their website about chromium hypersensitivity. I see leather animal restraints on a daily basis, and cannot reliably pin very many skin problems on the leather. How many millions wear a leather watchband every day? Faster way to slick backs is to use a slicker of some kind. I was taught to use cotton balls by one instructor - there is a time investment. I make my slickers out of a piece of LDPE cutting board quarter rounded off with a router. round off the corners too. A friend with a benchtop belt sander can do the same thing. Cleans the belt and makes a handy tool. Just dampen the leather and use the slicker like a squeegee. Forward strokes at about a 45 degree angle, a few passes and it is like glass. On latigo, sometimes a little paste like saddle soap or even wax will help to lay the fibers down. Most latigo is slightly more elastic than "strap" sides. As it was explained to me, some tanneries vegtans have been rolled and compressed to make what they call strap sides. These are designed to have less stretch and be firmer. Tooling sides are not compressed, so they will be looser, easier to tool, and will mold easier and have more stretch than their strap leather counterparts. Some just have names, and it all comes form the same pile I suspect. I would suspect that latigo and tooling leather are pretty similar in stretch. My thoughts, If she looks like she can get away, just punch another hole. Bruce Johnson