bruce johnson

Aaron, I am on a few other forums and lists, and actually I find this one easier with several categories. On some of the others, the posts are in 4 or 5 general categories. The problem is over time that these get to be very lengthy. A 2 or 3 post discussion of clickers is in the middle of mostly sewing machines, things like that. On one the posts are archived off in groups of 50. When you have to go back to look something up, it is unwieldy. Likewise, most new members never go back to post to a thread they may have something to contribute to. Another concern is that some only show the most recent posts for the last month, something like that. I think the format we have is easier. It is possible for someone new to go back and add to posts. I agree that the categories are not perfect and there is overlap in most anything we do. I think that your saddle question could go in several categories. My concern would be more to get it into one, rather than worry about where it fits exactly. The interested people will find it. My thoughts would be if it is a general question on handsewing, I would put it in the sewing section. If you are concerned about a specific way of restoring the saddle and stitching for either display or use, then probably the saddle restoration section. The big thing I like about this forum deal is that there is no email involved unless I choose it (and I don't). Other forums get me up to 75 emails a day, often on things, though interesting, don't pertain to my work. Here I can go to what I want to see first, then look at the rest at my leisure. I guess I have never used the "recent posts" thing.

Pete, I have been using and selling a few of the "roper special" cinches from Steve Bork. I like them, have worked for me, and see no reason to switch. They are double strung and I am not 100% sure how many strings they have. I have also used the original Cowboy Tack cinches when Dennis Moreland had it, they were double strung also. I am a mohair cinch fan, and haven't had problems with them.

Thanks for posting this Greg. Pretty small group of guys who have not owned at least one King rope in their lifetime, and fewer still who didn't have a "King's Ropes" cap at one time. Not many people who pick up a knife have not been influenced on some level by Don King. I have been fortunate to talk with Don a few times. Favorite memory- Last year at the show, We spent Thurs afternoon going through the museum (again). A lot of guys were huddled around Jim Jackson's bench watching him tool a checkbook. Don was standing a ways away by himself. My wife (not known for being non-conversational) walked up to Don and said "Mr. King, You will be busy later on, but I just want to thank you in advance for the good time I am going to have at your party tonight". Work stopped and about 10 guys turned around. Don got that twinkle in his eye and laughed. They talked for about 15 minutes. Saturday night, Don was still laughing when he saw us and decided our glasses were low. Although I haven't switched totally to tequila/grapefruit juice, thank you Don. It is a loss that you are gone, but a bigger gain that you were here.

Azmal and Grumpy, We have that thread regarding our saddle shop layouts in the Saddles and Tack subforum. It is in the general saddlery discussion section and the topic is "workshop tips and layout". Some good ideas there. Leatherwork is leatherwork, we just have more tools, hardware, and bigger machines.

I have seen it all the way through once, and have started back through again. I am learning as much or more the second time. The first time I was listening and watching what he was talking about. The second time I am watching, I see him doing little things he was not talking about that were slick. I see things he had done and not talked about. This definitely needs to be seen a few times. You don't have to shuck many oysters to find the pearls here. Example - last night I cranked on the tightest mulehide wrap I have ever done. It required a lot less muscle and time than any way I had done it before. I couldn't bring up even a bubble with the choke strap. Today I can't pick an edge.

Dai, I use pretty greasy latigo, so not much bonds mine all that well. I use Barge. My neighbor uses Masters All Purpose, and says it bonds latigo better. I don't think I would trust any cement to bond latigo together reliably without stitches for long. Masters is supposed to tack up quicker, but doesn't reactivate with heat like Barge. There are some latigos that are drier than equestrian latigo. They might glue up better. Regarding how to get the best bond. Apply to both surfaces, let tack up to almost dry or dry and stick together. The old rule was to never stick a shiny glue surfaces, make sure it is dry. Some people use "primer" coat of thinner cement first, than add a second coat of slightly thicker. To firm up the bond apply pressure - hammer, press, slicker, etc. However, there are some applications for using wet cement (another Rule given to me - always use wet cement to bond wet leather) for things you want to move into position. Dry cement will peel off wet leather sometimes. These bonds can take a few days to cure. All this is subject to change, because all the cements are being reformulated as we speak. The new formulas are going to separate and will need to be shaken or stirred prior to and during use. Whether they will behave the same remains to be seen.

Matthew, I use a notebook. I buy a good quality notebook from the office suppliers and drill out the rivets and use the binder clip. I cut the plastic cover off the stiffeners and reuse them for my notebooks. You can sand or bevel the edges slightly so they don't leave a stair-step bump at the edges.

Larry, Hello and welcome. I am about 70 miles S of Sacramento in Oakdale. Lots of gunleather folks here. If you want to make a special seat for a motorcycle patrolman, you are really at the right place. Shout away with questions, and feel free to go back and add to any previous threads you have questions or advice about.

Major, The floral book is excellent. I have no hesitation in recommending it.

Major, Make that two :ranting: . I bought the flower book at the last guild meeting. It is a dandy reference and the line drawings of the flowers pictured are directly useable as tracing patterns. Yep, that is the same book. We will consider it a donation and support for the company that taught leatherworking to the world and go on, heh buddy.

Susan, Sorry for the confusion. I was thinking without looking. On the thread regarding the Nikkel's trees, David was telling Rod that if Rod changed the bar patterns by incorporating twist into Rod's patterns, he could stabilize the rear of the saddle during roping. Sorry about that to all involved. I thought I saw somewhere that David does make ranch saddles. On his website he shows a Wade with a mulehide wrapped horn. That is where I got idea of his saddles being roped out of. The site also lists a rope strap as an option.

Alan, You bring up a point that I was confusing, and am still confused on. I am referring to any type rigging not just a double dropped dee ring. I think I understand the lines of force behind the drop plate, and understand what you are saying about the double rigged with no counterbalance. About the only dropped dees I do now are on some straight roping saddles. What my confusion is (and thanks for clarifying it) , wouldn't the back cinch hanging straight down in conjunction with a triangular front rigging (plate) do a better job than the same rigging with the back cinch angling forward and hobbled to the front cinch, as shown in Jane's picture. Kind of a long winded question, but only way I can think of it. Is there a counterbalance strap on the front ring? Or is the back cinch the counterbalance strap and the third leg of the triangle? I guess I was assuming that there was a counterbalance already there. If so, then the back cinch is duplicating the same or similar function. Another factor I see with hobbling the back cinch forward. My calf-roping back cinches run 6-8" wide in the belly. If I angled them forward, I would only have the front edge hitting the horse. Even with a 3" back cinch, unless it is contoured, or the buckles hung off square, it probably wouldn't have full contact either. Also type of roping, how broke the horse is, how big the wreck is gonna be, and is the clock running all factor into how tight you are going to get and how fast. I know my horn on a low TM tree with me forward, hanging off the right side, or if I was younger or any good, already off, is creating more torque when a 230# calf hits the end. It is different cranking down on a #4 sitting on a Bowman or Olin Young on the heels of a quick steer turned, and you are sitting square and back when everything comes tight. Different yet heeling calves at a walk or trot in a branding pen and slipping on a mulehide post. These also affect what kind of back cinch, how tight the back cinch is pulled, and how long it stays pulled. The confusion may also lie in that David's trees are designed to sit in a different place than what I am used to using/seeing. Maybe with his trees being more forward, and rigged further back, they are more stable cinched as shown, and they will keep the bar fronts off the shoulder blades when the horn would be torqued.

Ashley, Good looking work. Meticulous basket stamping, and good finish. Like Luke, I am curious what you used for the antique and finish. With all this stuff changing, it is going to take some time to get the effects we are looking for with the reformulated stuff.

Mulefool, Thanks for the compliment, I like it too. It was done by my neighbor and not me. I am in a saddlemaker rich area. Probably at least 30 people within 40 miles making saddles on some level. This was a trophy saddle that I bought from my sister-in-law and resold. There was other swivel knife scrollwork on it that was good too. The cuts really dressed up this roughout. If I didn't get my price, it was going into my tackroom. I had an email from someone asking me how much wedge to cut to raise the rear of the skirts. I checked my pattern, it has a scant 3/8" wedge from 3-1/2" in to the back edge. It can sure be overdone. I have seen some saddles that look almost like rockers. The back of the skirts sit 2" off the pads. Just as a point of reference. I appreciate the emails, but generally if you have a question, several others do also. Don't be shy, post it to the forum and everyone can have input and benefit from the answers. Don't be afraid to start a new topic, and for sure, don't hesitate to go back and post in old topics. We won't all agree, and sure don't all do anything the same way. I just want to wake up smarter tomorrow, and this group will help.

David. Looking at your saddles shown by Jane in post 15 and 16 in this thread. Is this girth placed in the area you are referring to the "girth channel"? If it is not, would you place it forward or back from here? Is the rear cinch supposed to be hobbled this close to the front cinch? Looks like it would tend to catch spurs, I have enough spur tracks on my back cinches as it is. LOL. I think you mentioned somewhere that your saddles stay in place for roping. Would you rope with this rigging setup? Does the pull and vectors you are talking about keep the backend of this saddle down when roped out of, and out of the shoulders? Obviously Jane is not riding a roping/ranching saddle, but how do you (or do you) change the rigging for the ranch horse? Obviously, most of us don't cinch one like this, which the reason for these questions. I am just having trouble figuring how splitting the triangle for a saddle that the horn is used for more than decoration is holding things as or more securely than both cinches sitting vertically and holding both ends of the tree down.

I have had a couple of emails from folks not understanding what we are talking about. I have attached some pictures to help illustrate. On the roughout, these skirts are laced all the way to the back. One problem with doing this. If the skirts do not exactly line up at the rear, the difference of even 1/16 of an inch is noticable. On mine I cut the rear corners at about a 1" or little better radius on all my skirts whether they are square or rounded. This gives a bit of relief, and allows a small side to side difference from setting the skirts to not be as noticable. The tooled saddle is one of mine, actually my wife's. The skirts are a bit shorter than usual, but they are laced back to the start of the curve. The rear jockeys cover them up, as Greg described. On longer skirts, the non-laced areas would show more.

Alan, If I am doing my math right, this guy wants fenders and leathers that have a 12 inch difference in the holes between him and his wife. That is huge. She is going to have a foot plus some of excess leathers hanging out the bottom. Aethetically??? Functionally she is adding another leg cue to flop around when she is riding. I know it is hard to extrapolate based on leg size, but I am guessing (unless they are both Jack Sprats) that the seat size is not the same for them either. I am thinking a second saddle.....

Ashley, Two ways to skin the cat. I don't know if it is a regional thing or personal preference. First if you lace all the way, the thought is that the back skirt edges will rub on the horses back. They will if the skirts tend to flip down because you cut a straight line where they meet. By cutting a forward wedge (fuller at the back) where they meet and lace all the way, the back edge will ride up. If the rear jockeys pull down, it makes a tight closure over the back bar tips. The other guys lace only to the end of the back bar tips, and the skirts are independent past that. Theory is that it allows freer movement. The rear jockeys cover the lacing of the skirts. Personally, I like to lace all the way, but have them ride up. I have seen some of the open rear skirts that curl on those corners, less attractive to me.

Doug, I would just wipe them with plain water. The silver is already fixed to the film, and ruboff or transfer has never been a problem for me. Bruce Johnson, DVM

Susan, Thanks for the topic. This almost exactly what I had in mind when I started this whole saddle fitting thing on this and another list before. I think we can and mostly do fit the average QH decently enough, although some would disagree. I wanted to know "how do we fit the oddball". Some responses have been that we would then be fitting one horse and the saddle would be obsolete when that horse was gone. True enough, unless we are fitting a body style. Nobody really had any good consistant ways to communicate with the tree maker on how to fit that horse. We have had quite a lot of water under this bridge since then, and I think and hope we have all learned and exchanged some great information. I foresee Dennis Lane's system being a real plus for this area. Obviously we are going to be fitting some breeds not covered by Dennis' previous records, but that is the intent as I see it. Bruce Johnson

As Barra said, eucalyptus is supposed to be a natural fungicide, as I know vinegar is. I have been told that eucalyptus is the fungicide in ProCarve casing concentrate. I was referred to a Cajun (when not partying) and a guy in Mississippi both that they have had little or no problem with mold during stamping, and even with the finished products in use just by casing with ProCarve. One thinks there is probably enough of that good stuff left in the leather that it inhibits mold. Where I live we don't get wet in the summer, unless you have a wreck in the clover. We mold in the winter fog, and it usually that white powdery stuff, not the cool green fuzz. When I was going a bit (back in the day of two horse trailers with the tack compartment under the manger), we put a rag soaked with Lysol in an open coffee can in the tack compartment to inhibit mold. Road heat and wet saddleblankets made those closed up areas just right to grow a green saddle. Like Greg, we used vinegar if it grew. I never saw any real problems from the acid, but we were not real easy on equipment either. We were using enough saddle soap, it probably balanced out the pH deal.

Happy Birthday, Take the rest of the day off, and tell the boss I said it was OK. Bruce J

Aye, Lee, this brings up a question. I am not picking on you, but you brought up something that can take this thread in a bit of rabbit hunt. One of the elder gents I have been fortunate to spend a morning with told me he would come back from the grave and kick my butt if I ever ran strings through the sheepskin on a repair. Reasons being, if this was a good way to do it, why not do it on new construction (although some do)? Reasons given not to do it on a new saddle is the strings lay flatter underneath the wool, they pound in smoother and less chance of a lump. What makes a repair saddle with mashed down wool any better to run the strings through the sheepskin? It should be worse if anything. I offered the excuse you can always cut the wool away under the string and it will lay flatter. If sheep leather was so tough they would use if for boot soles and not diplomas was the reply. You might wear a hole through the sheepskin eventually and THEN you might have some more relief from the lump. That would be right before you catch the edge of the hole in the sheepskin on the saddlerack and tear it into smithereens. At that point I knew my argument of "It is faster and easier to just poke a hole with my collar awl and pull the string up through" would have been futile. He had told me previously that unless "faster and easier" were also accompanied by "stronger and better with more quality" in the same sentence, they weren't a valid excuse for anything he knew of. (This guy was like EF Hutton...) Now I fish piece of wire through the hole, catch it and pull it up through the other hole, pull a piece of hand thread back through and use that to tie onto the string end with a series of half hitches. I pull the thread and the string follows. My sharp collar awl is a relic.

Just to reiterate my first post. Everyone has different expectations and price points for everything. Dusty's tapes will show you how he makes one. Granted it is not how a lot of other makers do it. His price and tapes/books are geared to entry level people who arguably should or should not be making saddles to begin without some supervision. It gives the novice a brief overview of a simplified way of making a saddle. They were marketed through Tandy, catering to the casual crafter who wanted to read something, view a tape, and see if they thought making a saddle was for them to try. I am not sure of the timeline, but am thinking they may have come out before the Stohlman series of saddlemaking books. Bill Gomer's videos are step past Dusty, and priced as such. The Cheaney sets are past Bill's and cost more. (funny how this progression is going here). Jeremiah's are the most complete, longest, detailed, and, until now - priced past all of them. I received my set of Harwood DVDs today. I have only seen Dale's first DVD so far. I am in fitting and finesse overload. Much like Jeremiah's, I think a person needs to watch 5 minutes, think about it 5 minutes, and then go on. For the guys who have spent time with Dale, I am envious. You need to have a basic grasp of saddlemaking and know your weak areas before viewing DVDs, taking a class, or even calling or visiting another maker to really get full benefit in my opinion. My take on what I have seen so far. Dale assumes you know how to make a saddle, how to use your tools, and how to prepare your leather. It is not geared to teach the novice to build a saddle from scratch. This set, like Jeremiah's, will help the average guy who has already made some saddles elevate his work to the next level. They will show you different ways than you may have been taught. To compare either of these sets to Dusty's is like comparing apples and oranges, Coke and Pepsi. To quote Baxter, they are about as similar as a bowling ball and a broken gate. They just are geared to way different viewers with different expectations and, I dare say, abilities. As far as what is on them, Mike Craw listed the contents on the Dale Harwood DVD thread. Are they worth it? First disc paid for the set to me just showing me how to put my cantle back and fillers on better. I am likewise guilty of normally punching too large a hole to for the back corners of the fork cover that goes down into the gullet. Anything else I learn is free. Dale is not riding on reputation here, the info is worth the dough if you are serious.

Skip, The guild I belong to meets at a Tandy. Since it is a 70 mile drive, also a good excuse for me to pick up the HL stuff and the stuff they won't ship at all now. I would wager that nearly everyone comes in with a shopping list and checks out at the cash register when the meeting ends. We meet at 5:30 on a Saturday, so the store is closed, no interruption of business. The manger and assistant are guild members (we might comp their dues, not sure). Might bring this up to the Tandy manager. Another suggestion might be to contact a senior citizen's center or retirement center. They usually have an activities room that is mostly open. They also usually have an activities director begging for someone to have a program going. Might be a deal to have the guild meeting and then a crafts program for residents. ANNNND, this is a great way to get rid of scrap. We just had the Scrap Dilemma thread going over on the saddle side. I am going to borrow a quote (I am thinking of having this fonted out nicely and framed). From my friend, Go2Tex who says, "Well, as they say, one man's scrap is another man's future key fob".