bruce johnson

Skip, I took Jesse's class at Wickenburg. It was pretty good to see how one guy sorts out the different styles. I think he broke it into Sheridan, Northwest, Texas, Porter, and California (Visalia). I understand the basic differences, but there is a fair amount of cross-over, and has been evolution in styles over the years. One guy in the class kind of put the different regional styles into perspective for me. He compared them to accents and local speech. You might grow up in Canada, but move to Texas or Oklahoma, and pretty soon "Y'all are fixing to get some work done, hey". There really aren't any hard and fast categories for any kind of style, but you can borrow from all of them and make it work. I think there are infinite styles. Within Sheridan, some guys say that when Don King and Billy Gardner were working together on the RCA saddles, not many could tell who tooled which parts. But turn them each loose and it was different. Chester Hape, Jim Jackson, Clint Fay all have different styles within Sheridan. There are different guys who stamped at Porters that the guys who know could pick out who did the work. Same with Stanley Dias (?) and some of the stampers at Visalia. Even thought it may fit into a "style", it is still individual.

Ed, Voice of experience on the receiving end here. Number one - INSURE IT!!!! Ok, done with that. Good idea to have it packed in a UPS store. If UPS packs and UPS breaks it, the finger pointing is all in one room, so to speak. I recently got one that was dropped in the delivery truck. That is noted in the tracking, so no question of where and how it happened. They must have done it right, because they reboxed it themselves before letting me pick it up at the center. Some of the broken off pieces (tensioner and thread guide) were not included in the repack operation. My experience so far in the claim process. It was packed and shipped through a UPS store. They used foam peanuts and cardboard as the cushioning (foam peanuts become foam communion wafers in nanoseconds). The hard foam is a better deal. Take pictures of the machine from all 4 sides to preclude them from coming back and calling anything previous damage. Skinny things that stick up/out like thread guides on top, maybe tensioners, might be removed. Make sure that no part of the casting or machine is directly in contact with the outside of the box. I would seriously consider boxing it and cushioning it, and then reboxing it in a slightly larger box. It doesn't take much of a hit the chip the casting in the base if the head is sitting directly on the bottom of the box (ask how I know). Take a picture of it before the box is sealed to show how it was packed and cushioned. Take a picture of the box manufacturers seal to show that the box specs and bursting strength are adequate for the weight of the machine. Look at your receipt and make sure IT IS INSURED. That is what I know so far. I can update on settlement satisfaction later.

Ken, Post a picture of the H&F string beveler please. They used to sell a handy little tool with a round hole in it to pull strings through and bevel. A few of the guys around here had one. A couple years ago I called H&F and they weren't selling them anymore. I saw Bill Gomer had one in his video, and called him. He referred me to a guy who said Bob Beard bought the patterns and rights to make them. I called Bob and he did indeed buy the rights. At that time (2-3 years ago) he was not seeing enough of a market to make them, and had no plans to do any. Thanks.

I have been asked to do a "one of" planner with some tooling and the logo/text will be done by someone else locally with a laser. Questions coming to mind: Can the leather be tooled, and oiled, but not finished before lasering? Will the laser darken the lettering and will I need to be careful what finish I use over it to prevent the blackening from coming off? What else should I be asking? Thanks for the timely thread. Now the bigger question, How much would one of these units cost? Easy to learn? Easy to get and service?

Pete, Good topic on one of those things a guy trades around/up until he finds the one that works for him. TLF has a little bench one for around $200. I got one thrown in with a tool set several years ago. The blade was not very good. I got one of the "Professional" model ones from TLF on an end-of-the-month inventory reduction deal a few years ago. It was pretty good, but only split down to about 4 oz due to a design issue. Several others on another forum had the same experience, but that may have been fixed in the meantime. The blade on mine held an edge pretty well. They do well for splitting, easy to adjust depth, and the "stop" makes repeated depths easier. Only issue I had was having a strap "ride up" the blade and chop off sometimes. Not something that happened often, just at bad times. You can do lap skives with these easily. My old tool refurbishing buddy sold me an American 6" handcrank splitter. Great for firmer leathers like skirting, strap, or firm latigo. Softer leather tend to ball up between the feed wheels and the blade. If you keep some tension the piece by pulling, it does alright on soft stuff. My far and away favorites are Chase pattern splitters. These are simple old relics, and I haven't heard of any made in the last 50 years (and probably a lot longer ago than that). I have an 8" and a 10" CS Osbornes. They have top and bottom feed rollers, and when adjusted properly, the blade can be set just inside these wheels. The leather has no place to go but into the blade, and can't ride up or down. If they get out of level, they are easily adjusted by loosening one side and moving the gearknob a tooth or two either way. They are pretty handy for thinning a strap end to go around a buckle. I can't do a lap skive out to a feathered edge easily with the Chase. Doesn't matter to me, they split better for me, and I've got two skivers anyway. The Chase splitters show up on ebay pretty often, and normally don't go for huge prices. Bob Douglas usually has some too. A couple of us were discussing these. They are so different looking than the old Randalls and Osborne 84 and 86, that it must just scare people off.

Beez, Been otherwise occupied for the day. Yes the Siegel strap sides are the same tannage as the skirting I like. Talk to the rep, they can pick the lighter 7/8s if you need to go light. When I need to get lighter for wallets and stuff like that, then I get it from HideHouse. Siegels are 1-2 days shipping away, HideHouse is overnight, as is TLF in Fresno. I am pretty spoiled. For personal reasons, Siegels are my first go-to leather supplier. I haven't dealt with Goliger or Stevenson-Paxton, although they are all close by too. I try to run with minimal inventory on hand for most things. Like my other business, "I want to use the last one as the brown truck pulls up", "Let the supplier be your warehouse" and those other business class mantras. Vandy at Sheridan Leather Outiftters was two or three days on my last order, and she has some hardware stuff nobody else does. That's cool. She may be the closest seller of Thoroughbred leather if they are still carrying it.

Trying not to sound like a smart alec here, but it is a "red one'' and came from China. There is no brand name on it. I got it from Rayco which is a local industrial equipment supplier (Modesto, CA). There is a Rayco that comes up on internet searches, but this isn't part of them to my knowledge. Rayco has a lot of shop equipment that is a step above Harbor Freight, but the price difference is visible in the quality. I have to come clean on this deal too, under threat from another member who knows this. My wife uses this a LOT more to click out stuff than I do. She started out making coasters a couple years ago. Simple stamped, but mostly hair on hide scraps glued to scrap skirting and then clicked and edge sewn. She was hand cutting them to start with, and got the attendant oddballs from handcutting anything. I ordered her some dies, and they arrived just before Feb 14th. Guys, clicker dies for your wife are not the most appreciated Valentine's Day gift. Any gift you give her later seems like an afterthought. Seemed like it would be funny at the time.....

Weeell, OK. I'll jump into this snakepit of a topic with both feet. I like Siegel's skirting - the golden oak. It is softer than HO. You will either like it or you won't. Nobody says, "Oh, it's sort of OK". They have some new colors, but I haven't tried them. I am a fan of the LM shearlings. I used to use Lazy M. Last fall I visited Siegels and took a swatch of Lazy M with me. Showed it to Steve. A short while later they started selling LM, it is consistantly as good or better than Lazy M by blind tests with some pretty picky folks. Denser wool, thick leather, and not as orangish as the Lazy M. More along the lines of the more yellow or tannish shearlings. I like Siegels USA greasy, waxy latigo. The greasier and waxier the better for me. Siegel's commercial oak is my lining of choice for heavier linings in the 2/3 - 4/5 range. This leather has been jacked seems like, and oils up OK. It doesn't tool up very well, too firm, but it will look good for plain linings and pockets. I also use the vegtan goats from Siegels for linings of the higher end or finer stuff. It also oils nicely for color. I like their mulehide for shoeing chaps and split it down for horn wraps. Diamond Tan is my favorite for gussets in ropebags and saddle bags. It is a waxy firmer bodied chrone tan. Some guys like it for chinks, but I think it is a bit stiff. Siegels sells a tooling leather that is the same tannage as the skirting, but only down to about 9/10 or something like that. Until I get a splitter like Greg, I have to source the lighter weights elsewhere. Sooo, staying in California, I buy the lighter tooling leathers from Hide House in Napa. It tools up about like the Siegels, and oils to about the same color. I like it. My experience with Herman Oak is purely with me. I know guys that make it look really good in the lighter weights. My basket stamping looks flat, like I stamped it too wet or dry. The blocks look like those wheeled off police belts. I have had some issues with rawhide in the skirting as others have. I beat on some Thoroughbred at Elko for a couple days that was more than pretty good. I won a side of W&C last spring. Oiled up it didn't match anything I had. I made replacement stirrup leathers and a set of saddle bags out of it. It tooled OK, but oiled up kind of in-between. Would probably be fine if that was all you used. I know there are only a couple taneries left of consequence in the US, but some of the new imports are not your Daddy's imports for sure.

Ed, Not a sewing machine mechanic, but I think you will be OK. I am going to show some ignorance here. Until your post, I didn't even know there were "clicks". I have had a 2000 for a while, and it has a pretty soft click. I haven't seen a problem with wandering stitch length. I have relined quite a few saddle skirts with it, and it hasn't made new holes, or skipped once set to the previous stitch length. I just bought a used Juki Pro 2000, and haven't got it set up yet. It has more of a distinct click. There is an adjustment for the stitch length lever tension too. On my 2000, it was pretty loose when I first got it, and would actually bounce a little. That will change stitch length. The adjustment is accessed throught the plate on the backside of the machine. Mine adjusts with a flat blade screwdriver. It is the only screwdriver thing back there, everything else is allen wrenches. Tighten down (if it isn't) and that should keep the lever in place.

Al, Doing the math here: For clicking, 1" plate on bottom. 1/2" cutting board, 1/4" leather. 1-1/4" die height. 1" plate on top. Four inches plus a couple to spare, should work. For a flip phone press mold. 1" plate on bottom, 1-1/2" female mold height, 1/4" leather thickness, 1-1/2" male press form height. Four and a half inches, still room to spare. But, it you add another top plate on top to crisp up the sewing lip, It will close. One thing with both of these is that you will not be going through either plate or the cutting board, but it is nice to have some space to work in from the top and not be sliding everything in tight. Once you get a piece clicked (and they really do "click" when you go through), you just have to let off the jack enough to slide the piece out and allow for the height of the die and leather to go back under. I find that 3-4 pumps on the handle is all I need to go through even skirting. It is not like jacking a car all the way up and down each time like some non-believers will tell you. A guy could probably use thinner plates too, but I got 1" to be sure. I like the idea you have for attaching the top plate to the ram. That would work with little trouble. We're gonna get this thing figured out yet. We are beating the socks off the commercial one with more power as it is.

My bottom plate is about 8x18. I put a piece of plastic cutting board over that. I have three or four pieces for the top plate. Smallest is 5x5 up to almost 8x16. They all came out of the local steelyard's cutoff pile (Iknew a guy who knew a guy...). I do not fasten the top plate to the ram. I just set it over the die, making sure it overs all the die, and is kind of centered under the ram. I use the press probably as much for the press forms as I do clicking. I may click a bunch at once, and then not for a while. The press forms are kind of more frequent. On those the first press is just the ram on the male part of the mold to seat the leather. The second press is with a board and plate to crisp up the fold edges and flatten the sewing lip. If I was just clicking, the plate welded to the ram might be nice. It better be welded on 100% square, or the force won't be even over the die. One side might go into the board and the other might not even be through the leather. With the plate not attached, this is not a factor. It is a bit of a hassle to pull the plate out each time, but I think of the $1000 plus savings vs. a real clicker. That little bit of time and effort is worth the money saved for me. My biggest dies are spur straps, so it is not a huge deal for me to handle the plates and dies each time. If you are building one, a factor I would consider. Make sure you allow for plenty of travel with the ram. On mine I click with the bottom plate all the way up. Some of the press forms I have to drop the whole bottom setup one hole to allow for the thickness of the forms and the leather not being bottomed out yet. Some of the old cell phones and flip phones are pretty thick.

Blake, That figures, I missed that episode. All Around Performance Horse is one of my favorites of the horse programming on RFD. Those guys run a pretty good show and mix it up. I will watch for the replay coming up. Congrats, Don.

Smokin P, As Kate said, some die makers go off an electronically transmitted image with no problems. I have bought dies and referred people to Texas Custom Dies. Everyone has been happy. Some die makers will only accept a shape for the die in the form of a stiff cardboard piece, and build the die to that exactly. I have also bought off-the-rack dies for spur straps, latigo carriers, and cinch carriers from Big Sky Tool and Die. They have worked out well for me also. Big Sky has a lot of different standard shapes for breast collars, chap yokes and shields, spur straps, headstalls, etc. My catalog is not current, but spur straps dies a couple years ago were from $70-100 for the strap and buckle piece as a set. Some sell a 2 piece set, and you turn the leather over for the correponding right and left on the strap side. Some have a 3 piece set with a dedicated right and left. The latigo and cinch carriers were $35 each. For pricing on custom dies everyone is a bit different. Some price by the inch of rule. I had one quote that was less per inch, but then had a fee for each bend. There are additional charges for hole punchers, slot punchers, etc within the die. One thing a die maker told me was to specify how thick the leather is you are cutting. It makes a difference high up some makers weld the cross bracing. Most leather dies are made from 1-1/4" rule, but there are some shorter ones out there.

Smokin P, I would not change a thing about my setup. Lower down in this section there is a topic called "manual mini clicker". It shows my shop press setup, and also the press forms I use that could not be done the same with a traditional clicker set up. Originally I was going to have a benchtop press made, with a flat plat on top. Didn't work out and I am glad it didn't now. I need more free space on the bench than on the floor. The floor model is also capable of deeper depths that the bench top. Also I can really use it as a shop press when needed. The price difference between a 20 ton jack and smaller is really pretty narrow. A friend from another list has broken smaller jacks, enough reason for me. I definitely want the jack on top, and a ram for my press forms. I use 1" thick cold roll steel plates, and poly cutting board over the bottom plate to protect the cutting edge when it comes through. Personally I have no reason for it to be portable. Any of the good benchtop clickers are over 100#.

Ed, I used to use that hole to set rivets that were too long. Just lay the setter on its side and whack away. I had a mechanic/machinist laugh hysterically at me several years ago. The hole is to hang up the setter on a pegboard or nail on the wall. That is why the hole is bigger according to him. Now THAT makes sense to me.

Just saw this thread, I set quite a lot of copper rivets. Someone mentioned the river head domer. Shameless plug, I am in not way afilliated, etc. Bob Douglas makes a three piece set for each of the three common sizes. One sets the burr, one peens the shank after it is cut to length, and the third domes the head. There are a few things I would not do without, and my wife says the setters are one of 'em. My wife will tell other makers or look at something in a shop and comment that they should get a set from Bob. Some guys have said that the domer on Bob's will sometimes overlap a #9 head (I think it is sold as an 8/9?). I haven't had that problem with any of my #9s from a few different sources. The shanks on Bob's setter/peener/domer have one, two, and three grooves, so you can tell which order to pick them up if they are all laying together on the bench. You can order them from Bob, or Vandy sells them at Sheridan Leather Outfitters. One thing I would differ on from the tutorial. If someone used my hoofnippers to cut rivets, I would be a bit upset. I used to use endcut nippers with longer handles. I started using compound action end nippers last year after I dislocated the thumb. Quite the deal, and now just bought a really cool old pair in an antique emporium ($5, it pays to look in those barrels) that are neater looking, bigger, and even easier.

Alan, Different companies use to have different 5 year guarantees also. Some give a full 100% guarantee the full 5 years. Others prorate it out - 80% after 1 year. 70% after 2 years, etc. The saddlemaker/customer is out the time and dollars to rebuild. Has the saddlemaker given him THEIR warranty. How long do they guarantee the work they do? The bottom line is that it is almost always economically better to toss a 5 year old saddle with a broken low end tree on a price point saddle, than to go through the warranty hassle. Unless the saddle has been in a wreck (in which case the tree guarantee might not even apply), the tree better outlast the leather and woolskin the saddlemaker chose. It sounds like he is comparing a $125 tree to a $175 tree. I really think the maker must be working pretty close to the bone to offer the customer the choice of tree maker. Sounds like they are shifting some responsibilty onto a guy who really isn't qualified to judge which tree is better based on anything but a warranty. Having him set the two trees on his horses to compare fit would be more productive than checking warranties. My thoughts.

A pal was cruising youtube today and spotted me. I took a look, and it sure enough is me. A bit about one one of my passions, and my little corner of the world. The link is www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOVciixBZ4k. I am not sure how to get this light up and directly link, but Johanna can give me a lesson on it later.

Al, Great topic and questions. I figure this could almost be the "never-ending" story. First off, you have to go in with a budget in mind and a time-frame. Most makers have a base price, and charge for add-ons. Every maker prices a bit differently, and some things one guy includes in the base price, the next guy considers an add-on. Before we get into the mechanics of the saddle some generalities. What do you do with your horses? How often? How long at a time? What did you like/not like about the seats (the way they sat) of previous saddles you rode? Do you sit back against the cantle or centered? How big are you? Are you the only one that will ride this saddle? Then it kind of starts a part at a time. Tree type. What you do somewhat influences what tree style you need, but then personal preference takes over. Swells vs. slickfork, horn type and size, seat or thigh length, cantle height, style and angle. Your horses will determine the bar spread, angles, and pattern. The tree is a whole topic by itself. Some guys will tout an all-leather ground seat vs. a strainer seat. I believe that a bad or good seat good be made with either one. Most makers prefer one technique or another. A lot of the factory saddles have fiberglass strainers and clicked out ground work to be consistant. That is why factory saddles are either consistantly bad or good. Stirrup leather widths - do you want 2-1/2 or 3"? Buckle types? Length, this is custom, you don't need 5" of length below the stirrup pin. Twist or flat? Rigging type and position. Another whole topic unto itself. Style of riding, intended purpose, type of horses, what do you like - rings vs. drop plate, stirrup swing needed/wanted, etc. Strings or not, drilled or not, conchos - metal or leather. Seat - padded, slick, inlay, or patch. Materials? Cheyenne roll or straight binding? After all of this we get into the aesthetics. Roughout or smooth out. Tooling, stamping, and the amount/detail all factor in. Skirts - Square, round, rounded, butterfly, cutouts for riggings... Stirrups - Some guys figure cast aluminum or galvanized bound as the base. Others figure in Monels. Leather covered, and tooled to match?? Lined, treads? Little stuff - cinch included? latigos? hobble carriers? small dees under a concho to buckle skid boots to? Rope strap and style? Look at a bunch of catalogs, websites, and talk to people who have bought one before. Get referrals from satisfied customers, ride their saddles, talk to a lot of people. There are very few standards in the saddle business, so you just have to do homework.

Randy, Last year at Sheridan, this was a pretty common thread throughout the week. Some guys are making light-weight saddles for just what you are describing. Pretty much the common thing was to cut an ounce or two here and there, it adds up, and the pounds take care of themselves. Don't try to do it all in one area. A few of the common things - lighter weight leather in appropriate areas. plastic stirrups with light treads (or the foam treads). Construction - smaller skirts, Mother Hubbards with skirt riggings even better. Smaller and narrower fender patterns. Narrow stirrup leathers - Blevins or a clone are made in 2". Some guys are using 1-3/4 or even 1-1/2 with other buckles. Thinner leather over the swells, cantle backs, etc - any minimal wear area for the intended use. Some guys are using some synthetic materials like Kevlar and Biothane for reinforcements. Some guys even get pretty sparing with the oil to keep them under weight. Not lining things you normally might. Leaving off the back cinch and billets unless they really want them, then that weight gain is on them. I will let the tree folks comment on what can be done on their end. One factor to consider is that if the bars are too thin, they may not be able to have the shape on the bottom to fit. If they do, it may require more groundseat buildup to get a decent seat, which negates the thinner bars. Shortening bar length much to cut weight may also get into saddle fitting issues as well. If the saddle is not a roper, a thinner fork could be used. Mike Craw might remember the guy's name who was with there from FL last year (the tall guy, Mike). I met him at Wickenburg again this spring. He makes a barrel saddle that is light. Good guy to talk to. Some of these guys making the better endurance saddles might have some insight too. Steve Gonzales (Bend, OR ?) has kind of a rep for light saddles.

Are one way snaps the same as Lift-The-Dot snaps? If so, Ohio Travel Bag has them I think. However, minimum orders apply, probably need a resale number, etc. About the only time I have needed them have been for repair work, and I only needed a few at a time. My local tent and awning company stocks them, and will sell them by the piece. I have also found the them to be a good source for other hardware I don't want to deal with in quantity. They carry all kinds of zipper tape and hardware, click-lock plastic buckles and slides, and webbing. Grommets and setters in all sizes. Tent and awning shops are an often overlooked supply resource. They also have a bunch of different cordura too.

Harvey, Looks nice, nice job, good use of color, he should be happy. Actually Clay, it was not real simple for the flags. Harvey sent me the line drawings for an opinion on which side to bevel them to make them match the pics. I did it about 3 ways that "looked" right, and then I still wasn't sure. I finally took my smaller flag and laid it out on my desk to put the folds in it. It ended up to not be any of the 3 ways I thought it was when looking at the line drawings.

Kate, Tim is a contributor on another forum I am on. That forum is mainly geared toward boot and shoemakers. It is called the honorable cordwainers colloquy (or some sort of close spelling). The web address is www.thehcc.org. You might recognise some familiar names. They are a pretty traditional group for the most part. They discuss tradtional methods vs. modern or factory techniques, machinery, tools, tips and tricks, and aesthetics. Probably where I get the most out of the postings are the discussions of philosophy of business or personal choices in business. On some of the subforum topics you have to be registered to post or view. They likewise have video lessons.

Pella, Regarding the chrome tan vs. veg-tan sheepskins. I see a few that are relined with chrome tan, and some that come from SE Asia that are new with chrome tan. It just doesn't seem to hold up. I have had guys tell me everything from chrome tanned wool is less cushioning, falls out easier, all the way to less tensile strength in the leather than veg-tan. If you are redoing saddles, go with what was original. As far as replacing with synthetics. If you are restoring for any antique, it NEEDS to be real sheepskin. Basically the value is destroyed, or at least seriously reduced, by replacing with synthetic fleece. I have a pretty cute little Porter that has synthetic fleece. That is the reason I got really inexpensively at an antique store. I was able to show them what their buddy did to reduce the value of their saddle by at least half. I used the example of reupholstering an 18th century piece of furniture with naugahyde. They could understand that. They were thinking "High Noon" sale price, I was thinking Saturday night horse and tack auction price. The big reason I don't like to reline them is two-fold. First it can be dicey on some of these old skirts to remove the sheepskin and not have the stitchline fall-off/tear-off. The other is that new sheepskin doesn't have the same "look of being used" as the rest of the saddle. I used to use Lazy M shearlings, which are bit more to the "orange" shade than most other shearlings. I now use LM shearlings from Siegels which are more of a traditional golden color. I also don't run another stitch line on reline restorations, like some guys will do on a reline for a working saddle. I pick the stitches and use the original holes on restorations, and will on relines if they want to pay for it. It is one thing to run a new line on a Circle Y or Dale Martin, another thing to "add" something to a Visalia or old relic. Some guys are pretty particular that all sewing has to be done with linen thread as originally done. If it is a museum piece, I agree. Most of my restorations are a family heirloom. I use poly thread in the "deer/peasant/golden wax" color. It doesn't look white, but does tend to look white on pics. I recently (last night) found a way to "age" the look of new sewing. I took some diluted Eco-Flo Hi-Liter in a brown color (half and half dilution with water) and rubbed on the stitching of something else. It "antiqued" the thread. I am going to let this sit for a while before trying it on a saddle, just to make sure it stays. Sure looks "used" though.

Dave, Isn't the Mach I a needle feed and the 3000 has a walking foot? Actually the advantages/disadvantages of the different feed systems might make a good topic. Especially coming from someone with 30 years in the business. At one time I suggested this to a supplier for a LCSJ article. Here we can be a little more wide open.