Big Sioux Saddlery

Wow, I can't imagine what it would be like to live in a place where I would have no need of a vehicle. Heck I drive over 200 miles to see my boyfriend! That's one way:-) However, I envy you living that close to W & C!

Perhaps carriage dashes and fenders for the longer arm machine? That would explain the relatively light capacity of a half inch Half inch would not have been of much use for harness work for anything except the lightest carriage harness. And it certainly might have been used for that so I'm not arguing. But farm and work harness requires close to an inch of lift, not necessarily throughout the entire harness, but trace and breeching ends get pretty heavy on those types of harness. I've been told that the Landis One's (Regular Landis Lockstich Machine) were in use during the civil war, but I have my doubts on the accuracy of that. Any info on that Bob? These old machines fascinate me as well. For no more technology than they had in those times, and they could design and build a machine that would do a pretty decent job, all things considered.

The condition of the ends tells the story. . . .in my opinion these would not be worth the time spent to repair them. If something comes into my shop that will not withstand machine stitching, and is intended for use, I advise the client to trash can the item. If for restoration and display purposes only, then that's a different story. Traces (or tugs as we call them here in the Midwest of USA) are not something that a person wants to be using that may be of questionable strength. The leather is likely rotten throughout the length of the trace, just more so on the ends where the process has been hastened by the holes. If you charge what you need to have to cover your time completely hand stitching this job, I believe completely new traces would not cost any more. In the process of skiving the layers back in order to make a perfect splice, the old leather is likely to tear apart. I would refuse to do it if the client is wanting to use these when finished. What are the front ends like? Are they attached directly to a hame, or breastcollar, or are they buckle-in type? Years ago, still in my teenage years and early twenties, before I started do this work for a living, I'd buy this type of old junk cheap at a sale and try to fix it up. Then I'd use it (I was working horses for a living at that time) and something else would break, and like as not cause a wreck that would have been avoidable if using good equipment to start with. In my early years in business, I got a lot of older guys bringing in old dry-rotted harness and wanting it fixed for cheap. It's throwing good money after bad. But that's just my opinion.

Umm, disregard previous response. . . can't find the damn stuff! It isn't where its SUPPOSED to be, and it isn't even where it ISN'T supposed to be! One of these days I'm going to lose my mind in there.

I might have some drum dyed HO about the weight you need I. . . .does it have to be W & C? Not even sure how much I have left. I'm home for dinner but can check when I go back to work.

You are quite welcome, Craftsman. It was one of the first books I bought many, many years ago when I moved beyond Tandy's tooling packs. I didn't have a stitching horse and couldn't find an antique one at the time, so I used the plans in the back of the book and had one made. I still use it today. That thing is at least 30 years old. I've also made the "rounds sewing attachment" for it. It works only moderately well. It doesn't help that I know of a manufactured clamp to go in a stitching horse exists for sewing rounds:-) I've only ever seen one, and it wasn't for sale. I think of it every time I sit down to sew some. Contact Bruce Johnson for a rounder. I think he usually has some. Edit: Ha, I see that I talked about the clamp above. Is that obsessive? Ha ha

I don't know anything about the maker, but that is an unusual arrangement. Looks like the fender is on the wrong side to me.

The wooden one will work just fine for what you want to do, and IMO will be easier to learn to use. Everyone screws up a strap with a draw gauge at some point. Occasionally I still do. I have "The Original Strap Cutter" so I would recommend that over the Tandy model, just going off of the quality of most of the rest of Tandy's stuff. Keep a sharp blade in it and they're pretty easy to use. Curves. . . it depends on how much of a curve you're talking about. Sometimes, a curve will develop along the straight edge that you're cutting from, just due to the difference in the density of the leather throughout the length of the hide. A subtle curve is no problem to follow. A sharp or abrupt curve could be a little more difficult.

It all depends on what you are going to cut. The wooden strap cutter is ok for lighter weight leathers, and seems to be easier for beginners to use. A draw gauge works better on heavier weight leathers; if you try to use the wooden strap cutter on heavy skirting or harness leather, you'll likely crumble the blade, especially if you hit a raw spot. I still keep a wooden strap cutter around for saddle strings. Everything else gets cut with a draw gauge, for which there is a bit of a learning curve. If Bruce has them for $45 with a sharp blade, that is a pretty decent price. Actually, I'd get one of each.

Shortening fenders is a very common repair in my shop. There are a lot of women (and a few men) who are just too short-legged for the fenders on production saddles. Most of these people have their mind made up when they bring the saddle. They aren't worried about resale; they want the saddle to work for THEM. However, most people are somewhat concerned about cost. It is sure cheaper to cut down a pair of fenders than it is to make a new set. For the folks who bring a saddle and don't know the options, I always thoroughly explain the ins and outs of shortening vs building new. Quite often the saddle has been ridden enough that the stirrup leathers are not even in length anymore, as the leathers in production saddles aren't prestretched and I've even seen brand new saddles where the leathers aren't even. So typically I shorten and even them up when I have things apart. Some fenders lend themselves to the process much easier than others. A wide fender with a lot of shape to it does not cut down as nicely as a cutting or barrel type fender. I've seen some that were done by the owner or someone who had no clue what they were doing, and that DOES ruin the resale on a saddle. Normally, when I'm done with one, it is next to impossible to detect that anything was done without lifting the seat jockey or pulling the stirrup leather down so the top of the fender is visible. Done correctly, I don't believe it hurts the resale, in fact, in some cases, it can help it. Just my opinion:-)

I haven't bought leather locally in more years than I care to count. Anything that comes in my shop gets shipped hundreds of miles. Freight is just part of the cost of being in business. After all, it ALL gets shipped in from somewhere else at these retail outlets. And yes I'd LOVE to be able to look at a hide before I buy, but where I live, it's just not possible. And I know you're a hobby guy yet and buying retail, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised if you try W & C leather. As far as I know, Wickett will sell to anyone; you don't need a storefront, you don't need to be in business, you don't need a tax ID number. Their veg tan leather is quite nice, tools nicely, oils up evenly, fun to cut. I don't think I've ever hit a raw spot. It does have a more mellow temper than Hermann Oak for example, and with the belly being the softer part of a hide to start with, it may not work well for a project requiring some body or rigidity (holsters), but for practice projects it is a great deal and will allow you to sample their leather so that when you ARE able to buy a whole side, you'll know what to expect. I do get a little better yield out of a side of HO for that reason; I can cut lower in a side of HO before running into mushy leather, AS A RULE. Not so with a couple sides of russet harness lately, but generally speaking, that holds pretty true. On the other hand, I know a guy who argues he gets BETTER yield from Wicketts leather, because the sides run bigger. In any event, W & C is a pleasure to deal with and they will help the little guy. Sounds like I'm working for them doesn't it?

What kind of bellies you buying? If you're paying up to $30 per belly, maybe ya want to buy some from me Seriously, check out Wickett and Craig. I don't know about their bellies, but on sides they have no minimum. Better leather, less money.

Now THAT makes a lot of sense! And it sounds like buying leather. . . . the harness and saddlery trade makes up a very. very small percentage of all the leather sold worldwide, so we kind of have to take what we get, which is often what the other trades (Auto, upholstery, footwear, etc) don't want. I often think about what the harness and saddlery trade must have been like in the early 1900's, and think that would have been a good time to be alive. Now we're a long way from the original subject! Sorry and thank you!

Thank you Art, that does make some sense, but doesn't explain the edgers, awls, and other tools. One night years ago I was sewing a cantle binding in the middle of the night. I was about half way through and I broke my awl (favorite one of course). I didn't have another one even close to the same size. I dug around in my junk and found a great big old awl blade and ground it down, right there in the middle of the night. The blade looked terrible when I had it ground to about the size I thought it would work. I sharpened and polished it as best as I was able and went back to sewing. I was amazed at how well it worked. First chance I got, I ordered two brand new $25 awl blades that come highly recommended. I have never been more disappointed in a tool as I was in those new awl blades. Every once in awhile I dig them out and try them again, but I always go back to the ugly blade that I ground down in the middle of the night years ago. Only explanation I get from a guy I buy a few tools from is "They used better steel back then". Edgers are the same thing. I like my old ones. Maybe I'm just old:-)

Well, I know next to nothing about metal, but I DO know what I like in a knife (or any tool) I'm going to use on a daily basis. So answer me this, and sorry if this is a really stupid simple question to you knife maker guys and completely off the subject, but I really want a logical explanation. My favorite knives and tools are all OLD. Some aren't all that hard to sharpen (and I'm not a sharpening expert either by any means) and may not hold an edge for all that long, but when those suckers are sharp, they are sharp, and have NO DRAG. And drag is one of my pet peeves. I pay a fair amount of money for a new edger or a new awl, or a new string bleeder, and no matter how sharp it looks or feels, and no matter how pretty they're polished, they have a DRAG that my old tools don't have. I've got an old Rose knife that's a bitch to sharpen, but even semi-sharp, it doesn't drag like some of those newer kind-of expensive tools. I've got an old Gomph knife, and even dull, has less drag than an awl blade I paid way too much for. To be fair, I've never bought a new $250 knife, although one of these days I might, just because I like knives:-)

Hi Mike, that WAS what I was thinking and hoping! A good old friend of mine had figured out how to make one for me, but got sick with cancer and passed away before he got the chance. It would have had a hopper and been made more for a production-type situation than a simple hand tool. This fella was pretty inventive and made a lot of things for himself and others and I really miss him. I live in the eastern part of SD, near Sioux Falls, but last week I drove across the state from the HIlls on Hwy 18, so we went through Pine Ridge and Rosebud. It was a nice change from the Interstate. The Rally was going on and the traffic on the more travelled highways was terrible and we wanted to avoid that. Quite a few others had the same idea, as we visited at stops along the way. It was very scenic and very GREEN all along that route. There's been plenty of rain this year by the looks of things. The cows are fat and they still have grass:-)

BINGO!! Or they drive up in a 60K pickup pulling a 50K trailer with a 30K barrel horse in it, but want an $800 saddle

And I'm still interested:-) I'm going to be out of the shop for a week starting Monday the 8th and may not have internet access, so don't anyone get their panties in a bunch if something goes down with this and I don't respond or chime in:-) I'll be back the 15th.

Very VERY nicely executed basket stamp. Good job!

Walsalls doesn't have harness hardware. Try Beilers, Chupp Bros, even N & A. There IS NOT another one stop shop like Weaver that I know of. Just out of curiosity, MikeRock, with a $2500 order, why wouldn't you just order from Weaver anyway? You'll get pretty decent prices on everything with that amount. And if you're ordering twenty sides, you're at 4 times the required minimum for harness leather at Hermann Oak. If I have a large harness hardware order, I'll usually order from one of the suppliers I mentioned, but if I have a mixed order, I'll order from Weaver. They have a few things that the others don't. And while Weaver's prices are typically higher, every once in awhile they are cheaper on a specific item, so even though my other supplier may carry that specific item, I'll order a quantity from Weaver when I'm ordering.

JLS, your post made me laugh, despite the fact that I am not a grown man, but a nearing-menopausal-hormone-crazed woman. Lol. That's ok, I can still handle a little humor. And as far as you being responsible if I don't like the leather, when I make a deal I stick to a deal. I buy what I buy and I stand behind what I sell. I wish everyone I deal with would do the same. I could use 4 oz, probably nothing lighter. Heavier would be great! Would they be as big as a side, being splits, or would they be more like a back, since the belly is often a little lighter on an un-split side? If we could find a third person, I'd go for 10 sides. Been really curious if they'd work like I think they would, in the application I'd like to use them in. Bikermutt, a split is flesh on both sides. It's the piece that comes off the flesh side when splitting down a heavier piece of leather. So say they want 24 ft sides that are leveled to 7 oz. While they might find smaller hides that run that light without splitting, any hide from a mature animal will have to be split down from heavier leather, like saddle skirting weight leather. I'd say most cowhide under 9/10 or 10/11 oz has been split. That's just a guess, but when I order light weight skirting, mostly it's full thickness, just lighter hides to start with. I get some 8/10's from W & C that don't seem to have been split much, but anything under that weight seems to usually have been split, assuming they're not from something that was half grown when slaughtered. And sorry, nothing personal but I'm going to keep this one to myself as to what I want them for. No big trade secret or anything, I just want to try it before I run my mouth. Jeff, see what you can get done. . . .Anyone else want to try 10 splits?? If a third person is game, I'm in. But nothing under 4 oz for me, that'd be the absolute lightest I'd want to go. Also Jeff, where in IA do you live? I get around quite a bit, and possibly could save the shipping from you to me.

JLS what weight were you needing and do you know what weights they even offer? I don't have any myself, but have thought in the past if a couple or 3 people could go together on the splits to make the minimum, I think maybe I could use some. I suppose by the time ya get freight on it from St Louis to IA, then IA to SD, they wouldn't be so cheap anymore.

While I don't have a Hansen String Cutter, I can tell you that ANY splitter blade needs to be super sharp for good results. Try pulling a 3" stirrup leather through a dull splitter. If it's not sharp enough to shave with, it's not sharp enough. Also, although I don't split very much leather down to lace thickness, I never split it wet. You'll get too much stretch out of wet leather. And some leather is not meant to split down to lace thickness. It has to be super tight grained from a light hide to start with. If you try to split saddle skirting down to lace thickness, you'll likely have a problem. There'll just be too much stretch or it'll pull apart, maybe not the entire length of your string, but it won't be consistent like calf or goat or roo. You have to start with the right hide in the first place, and then it's more knocking down the high spots. Folks that do a lot of braiding may have better or perhaps more accurate advice than I do, but that's my experience.

I do the same thing for the same reasons. I don't think I have ever thrown away a mock-up or screwed-up project.